More Canon Gear Appears for Certification, Including 5 New Lenses

StoicalEtcher

EOS RP
CR Pro
Jan 3, 2018
396
341
Yorkshire
I guess different people will have different attitudes to product and price differentiation strategies, but if talking about a potential full-frame mirrorless, then not only would that (by one definition) be Canon's 'higher-up' model in that range, but I can't imagine why Canon wouldn't want to make a splash with it, given the eager anticipation of the market for such a product.

Stoical.


Haha, speak for yourself! I can't imagine what Canon could release that would entice me to buy. Anything they do is following the leader (tech wise, not sales wise) at this point and you can quote me on this - it WILL be intentionally crippled to some degree so as to not affect sales of the higher up models.
 

eninja

EOS RP
Dec 17, 2012
277
1
ahsanford said:
jolyonralph said:
neuroanatomist said:
jolyonralph said:
Can you give me examples please of a camera that has been crippled in such a way where canon have specifically removed or reduced a feature that the hardware is capable of doing?

I can. Most Canon DSLRs, the EOS M line since launch, and even several PowerShot models have in-camera HDR. But Canon omitted that feature from the 1D X and 1D X II. Canon intentionally crippled their highest-end, professional cameras. Bad Canon. Bad!

;)

It doesn't have the "Food mode" either ;)

My 100L IS doesn't have an illuminated front element.
My 5D3 doesn't have wifi.
The 7D2 has DPAF but no touchscreen to make it sing.
My 600EX-RT II doesn't have the motorized auto-bounce feature.

Reverse nerfing is real. ;)

- A

To be honest, I already had a G12 when I got the 6D.
WTH, only 2s and 10s on the 6D timer mode?!
WTH, only 1 shot on timer mode?!
Really Canon, on G12, I can set how long is the timer, and set how many shots.
 

Kit.

EOS 5D Mark IV
Apr 25, 2011
2,078
1,425
Generalized Specialist said:
ahsanford said:
They simply unveil the next thing you are going to buy. 8)

- A

Haha, speak for yourself! I can't imagine what Canon could release that would entice me to buy. Anything they do is following the leader (tech wise, not sales wise) at this point and you can quote me on this - it WILL be intentionally crippled to some degree so as to not affect sales of the higher up models.
Cool story, bro.
 

neuroanatomist

I post too Much on Here!!
CR Pro
Jul 21, 2010
24,726
2,325
robotfist said:
Canon doesn't have one lens in the top 25. Not one.

Of course they don't. Everyone knows that Canon lenses deliver less dynamic range then lenses from Sony or Nikon, so it makes sense that they would score lower. Dynamic range is a critically important metric when evaluating the optical performance of a lens.

giphy.gif
 

3kramd5

EOS R6
Mar 2, 2012
3,084
405
robotfist said:
One look at the DXO charts and you can see how far they are falling behind Sony and Nikon in both lenses and cameras. Canon doesn't have one lens in the top 25. Not one. Their 35mm II shows up in the 28 slot. I know tests aren't everything, but they aren't nothing either. They do tell a lot about lens sharpness, chromatic aberrations, etc.

All lenses in their database, as best I can select (sony/canon/nikon lenses, any price, any age, any camera, any focal length, any max aperture)

Sorted by sharpness, in the top 20 I see 7 canon lenses, 11 sony lenses, and 2 nikkor lenses. Not surprisingly, the lenses tested on the higher resolution platforms (42MP and 51MP versus 36MP) dominate, since DXO's lens testing methodology is inseparable from the camera body.

Sorted by chromatic aberration, in the top 20 I see 7 canon lenses, 5 sony lenses, and 8 nikkor lenses.

Sorted by distortion, in the top 20 I see 9 canon lenses, 3 sony lenses, and 8 nikkor lenses.

Sorted by transmission, in the top 20 I see 7 canon lenses, 6 sony lenses, and 7 nikkor lenses.


Canon isn't exactly left standing still, as your listing of the black box DXO composite score suggests. It’s a competitive field, which is a good thing.
 

ahsanford

Particular Member
Aug 16, 2012
8,617
1,642
3kramd5 said:
Okay. All lenses in their database, as best I can select (sony/canon/nikon lenses, any price, any age, any camera, any focal length, any max aperture)

Existing lens ratings for Nikon are about to jump. For starters, the D850 lens re-test hasn't happened yet, and when that happens, ratings for existing lenses will go up.

And when sensor stack, DR, etc. nonsense is fueling their scoring, I just check out. Drawing conclusions from their scoring is the way to madness. I have no doubt that Sony and Nikon make some sharp lenses, but the overall score metric is radioactively misleading.

- A
 

3kramd5

EOS R6
Mar 2, 2012
3,084
405
ahsanford said:
3kramd5 said:
Okay. All lenses in their database, as best I can select (sony/canon/nikon lenses, any price, any age, any camera, any focal length, any max aperture)

Existing lens ratings for Nikon are about to jump. For starters, the D850 lens re-test hasn't happened yet, and when that happens, ratings for existing lenses will go up.

And when sensor stack, DR, etc. nonsense is fueling their scoring, I just check out. Drawing conclusions from their scoring is the way to madness. I have no doubt that Sony and Nikon make some sharp lenses, but the overall score metric is radioactively misleading.

- A

Sharpness will go up; I’m not sure the others will. However, it’s clear that their methodology marries the lens metrics to a given camera body. And again that’s fine... unless the goal is to present them without dependent variables in which case DxOmark, which represents itself as “... the trusted industry standard for camera and lens image quality measurements and ratings,” should invest in proper instrumentation.
 

Cryve

EOS 90D
Jul 4, 2018
115
74
Germany
Still waiting for the rumored 200-600 5.6 . Although they will probably go for a 200-500 f5.6 like nikon. Sony is also rumored to annouce a 200-600 this year. Hopefuly they do and we can see how such a lens may looks and works.
 

scyrene

EOS R6
Dec 4, 2013
2,827
972
UK
www.flickr.com
Cryve said:
Still waiting for the rumored 200-600 5.6 . Although they will probably go for a 200-500 f5.6 like nikon. Sony is also rumored to annouce a 200-600 this year. Hopefuly they do and we can see how such a lens may looks and works.

As has been pointed out here many times, 600mm f/5.6 has the same aperture diameter as a 300mm f/2.8, so it would be in the premium supertelephoto range. 500mm f/5.6 is much more realistic, especially if you want a lower-priced product, but it will still be expensive.
 

Cryve

EOS 90D
Jul 4, 2018
115
74
Germany
scyrene said:
Cryve said:
Still waiting for the rumored 200-600 5.6 . Although they will probably go for a 200-500 f5.6 like nikon. Sony is also rumored to annouce a 200-600 this year. Hopefuly they do and we can see how such a lens may looks and works.

As has been pointed out here many times, 600mm f/5.6 has the same aperture diameter as a 300mm f/2.8, so it would be in the premium supertelephoto range. 500mm f/5.6 is much more realistic, especially if you want a lower-priced product, but it will still be expensive.

i didnt know that. thats sad to hear. I had hoped for something that offers long reach, handholdability and low light capability. I guess ill be saving up for a 500 or 600 f4, because i cant imagine what a canon 200-500 f5.6 will have over a nikon 200-500 5.6 or the 150-600 lenses. Or is there something i am forgetting here?
 

jolyonralph

EOS R5 Mark II
CR Pro
Aug 25, 2015
1,411
899
London, UK
www.everyothershot.com
A 200-600 f/4.5 - f/6.3 (or thereabouts) would be a sensible and not too expensive option, except that of course Canon have said they won't do any lenses for the EF mount that are slower than f/5.6 or they'll lose backwards compatibility with older bodies.

No such issue with a mirrorless mount though, and several EF-M lenses already are f/6.3 on the long end.
 

amorse

EOS RP
Jan 26, 2017
779
1,024
www.instagram.com
Cryve said:
scyrene said:
Cryve said:
Still waiting for the rumored 200-600 5.6 . Although they will probably go for a 200-500 f5.6 like nikon. Sony is also rumored to annouce a 200-600 this year. Hopefuly they do and we can see how such a lens may looks and works.

As has been pointed out here many times, 600mm f/5.6 has the same aperture diameter as a 300mm f/2.8, so it would be in the premium supertelephoto range. 500mm f/5.6 is much more realistic, especially if you want a lower-priced product, but it will still be expensive.

i didnt know that. thats sad to hear. I had hoped for something that offers long reach, handholdability and low light capability. I guess ill be saving up for a 500 or 600 f4, because i cant imagine what a canon 200-500 f5.6 will have over a nikon 200-500 5.6 or the 150-600 lenses. Or is there something i am forgetting here?

I think if you're looking for Canon's answer to the long-range super telephoto zooms, the product already exists - the 200-400 f/4 with a built in 1.4x teleconverter. You can work with f/4 all the way from 200mm to 400mm (good in low light), and then using the built in converter you can reach 560mm at f/5.6 (reasonable reach, and faster aperture than the competition at that range). The quality is (to my understanding) superb, but it does not come with a superb price tag - $11,000 USD. The 100-400 f/4 - 5.6 ii is likely the closest match we'll see to the 150-600's or 200-500's of the world I suspect, but even that is a superb product (with a somewhat more comparable price point).

I think any other lens released by Canon in that zoom range, if priced to compete with Sigma and Tamron, would not be an L lens. I am not sure how Canon would manage to keep to their direction of not releasing lenses slower than f/5.6 while building a price-competitive product at the super low price points put forth by Nikon, Tamron and Sigma. In all fairness, however, check out the sharpness comparison between Nikon's well-regarded 200-500 versus Canon's 100-400 mark ii. In my mind, there is no comparison - Canon's lens blows this out of the water (even if you use a 1.4x teleconverter!) - see the side by side comparison on the digital picture - link below:

https://www.the-digital-picture.com/Reviews/ISO-12233-Sample-Crops.aspx?Lens=1035&Camera=614&Sample=0&FLI=1&API=0&LensComp=972&CameraComp=453&SampleComp=0&FLIComp=3&APIComp=0
 

TAF

EOS RP
CR Pro
Feb 26, 2012
451
142
jolyonralph said:
Generalized Specialist said:
and you can quote me on this - it WILL be intentionally crippled to some degree so as to not affect sales of the higher up models.

Ok, seeing as you asked to be quoted...

You're wrong. Canon doesn't 'intentionally cripple' products.

Can you give me examples please of a camera that has been crippled in such a way where canon have specifically removed or reduced a feature that the hardware is capable of doing?


I would have to say that the existence of Magic Lantern proves the gentlemen's point.


However, there is something called 'trade space' where designers have to make a choice in a design to meet goals set forth by their management, such as final price, production speed, reliability, or any other requirement that is levied upon them. Sometimes that means that lower end cameras get less features (hence Magic Lantern), and sometimes they get more (WiFi being easier in a plastic body than a metal body).

And sometimes the program manager doesn't quite possess the best crystal ball...or isn't as much of an enthusiast as we would like. And simply misses something.
 

nchoh

EOS RP
Apr 3, 2018
310
196
Calgary
TAF said:
jolyonralph said:
Generalized Specialist said:
and you can quote me on this - it WILL be intentionally crippled to some degree so as to not affect sales of the higher up models.

Ok, seeing as you asked to be quoted...

You're wrong. Canon doesn't 'intentionally cripple' products.

Can you give me examples please of a camera that has been crippled in such a way where canon have specifically removed or reduced a feature that the hardware is capable of doing?

I would have to say that the existence of Magic Lantern proves the gentlemen's point.

T7i = crippled 80D
80D = crippled 7D Mii
7D = very crippled 5DMiii
6DM2 = crippled 5DM3
5D = crippled 1D

... AKA market segmentation.

Really depends on how you want to look at it. If you want to critize Canon then you say it cripples it products.
 

Larsskv

EOS R
Jun 12, 2015
842
289
blackcoffee17 said:
robotfist said:
Canon definitely needs to get on the ball and release some new lenses. Where is the 24-70 IS?? Where is the new 50mm?? One look at the DXO charts and you can see how far they are falling behind Sony and Nikon in both lenses and cameras. Canon doesn't have one lens in the top 25. Not one. Their 35mm II shows up in the 28 slot. I know tests aren't everything, but they aren't nothing either. They do tell a lot about lens sharpness, chromatic aberrations, etc. And while Canon still owns the best color science and menu operations for their camera bodies, they can't ride on those things forever, because the competition is hard at work in the lab, chipping away at Canon every day. Sony was a blip on the chart 10 years ago, and look how far they've come? Well it's clear that they aren't stopping. If Canon keeps going at the pace they're going, I foresee a big upset happening in 5-10 years.

DXO might be relevant for sensor testing but i don't care about them at all for lenses. They had some really weird lens test results in the past. Why has the Sigma 35mm higher ranking than the Canon 35mm II?

If I recall correctly, the sharpness score DXO presents is based on an average of all apertures, punishing lenses that stop down to lets say the diffraction punished f22. That is how the Sigma 35ART beats the 35LII - the Sigma stops down to f16, the 35LII to f22.

Even if presented as an apples to apples comparison, they are not.
 

3kramd5

EOS R6
Mar 2, 2012
3,084
405
nchoh said:
TAF said:
jolyonralph said:
Generalized Specialist said:
and you can quote me on this - it WILL be intentionally crippled to some degree so as to not affect sales of the higher up models.

Ok, seeing as you asked to be quoted...

You're wrong. Canon doesn't 'intentionally cripple' products.

Can you give me examples please of a camera that has been crippled in such a way where canon have specifically removed or reduced a feature that the hardware is capable of doing?

I would have to say that the existence of Magic Lantern proves the gentlemen's point.

T7i = crippled 80D
80D = crippled 7D Mii
7D = very crippled 5DMiii
6DM2 = crippled 5DM3
5D = crippled 1D

... AKA market segmentation.

Really depends on how you want to look at it. If you want to critize Canon then you say it cripples it products.

Volkswagon Golf = Very crippled Audi S5
Audi S5 = Very crippled Lamborghini Aventador
Lamborghini Aventador = Very crippled Bugatti Chiron

Damn that VW Group.
 

ahsanford

Particular Member
Aug 16, 2012
8,617
1,642
Larsskv said:
If I recall correctly, the sharpness score DXO presents is based on an average of all apertures, punishing lenses that stop down to lets say the diffraction punished f22. That is how the Sigma 35ART beats the 35LII - the Sigma stops down to f16, the 35LII to f22.

Even if presented as an apples to apples comparison, they are not.

Correct. DXO judged the 35L II to be less sharp than the 35 Art because it had the audacity to offer f/22 aperture.

Under that not at all absurd thing to do, lens designers should go back to the drawing board and limit all lenses to only stop down to f/8 to game their sharpness score. ::)

- A
 

jeffa4444

EOS 5D Mark IV
Feb 28, 2013
1,519
178
67
robotfist said:
Canon definitely needs to get on the ball and release some new lenses. Where is the 24-70 IS?? Where is the new 50mm?? One look at the DXO charts and you can see how far they are falling behind Sony and Nikon in both lenses and cameras. Canon doesn't have one lens in the top 25. Not one. Their 35mm II shows up in the 28 slot. I know tests aren't everything, but they aren't nothing either. They do tell a lot about lens sharpness, chromatic aberrations, etc. And while Canon still owns the best color science and menu operations for their camera bodies, they can't ride on those things forever, because the competition is hard at work in the lab, chipping away at Canon every day. Sony was a blip on the chart 10 years ago, and look how far they've come? Well it's clear that they aren't stopping. If Canon keeps going at the pace they're going, I foresee a big upset happening in 5-10 years.

Please don't quote DXO the most arcane testing procedure. We test cameras & lenses everyday for high end cinematography. Lenses are tested on the MTF bench, on and off axis, on a F stop (T stop) machine, and projected by specially made projectors set-up precisely in a dedicated room with various aspect ratios projected to see to what format the lenses can cover and to what degree they have fall-off or abberations. We test the cameras in a number of ways and then finally test the lenses on the camera.

You maybe surprised how many Canon lenses have been used on images that will be projected onto 53 feet diagonal screens or larger both in a still image (for assessing real life images rather than charts) or moving images.

In our industry DXO are seen as amateurs.
 

3kramd5

EOS R6
Mar 2, 2012
3,084
405
jeffa4444 said:
robotfist said:
Canon definitely needs to get on the ball and release some new lenses. Where is the 24-70 IS?? Where is the new 50mm?? One look at the DXO charts and you can see how far they are falling behind Sony and Nikon in both lenses and cameras. Canon doesn't have one lens in the top 25. Not one. Their 35mm II shows up in the 28 slot. I know tests aren't everything, but they aren't nothing either. They do tell a lot about lens sharpness, chromatic aberrations, etc. And while Canon still owns the best color science and menu operations for their camera bodies, they can't ride on those things forever, because the competition is hard at work in the lab, chipping away at Canon every day. Sony was a blip on the chart 10 years ago, and look how far they've come? Well it's clear that they aren't stopping. If Canon keeps going at the pace they're going, I foresee a big upset happening in 5-10 years.

Please don't quote DXO the most arcane testing procedure. We test cameras & lenses everyday for high end cinematography. Lenses are tested on the MTF bench, on and off axis, on a F stop (T stop) machine, and projected by specially made projectors set-up precisely in a dedicated room with various aspect ratios projected to see to what format the lenses can cover and to what degree they have fall-off or abberations. We test the cameras in a number of ways and then finally test the lenses on the camera.

You maybe surprised how many Canon lenses have been used on images that will be projected onto 53 feet diagonal screens or larger both in a still image (for assessing real life images rather than charts) or moving images.

In our industry DXO are seen as amateurs.

My suspicions about DXO:

They started out collecting data for the purposes of building profiles for their raw converter. As such, it requires camera+lens. Then someone got a “big data” idea and decided to publish it. Things got out of hands when they came up with scoring to drive traffic, because that opens the can of dependent variables worms.

If one uses the data selectively, it’s very valuable. It is just unfortunate that DXO has decided to stylize itself as a testing lab.
 
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