New Canon Camera Bodies Appear for Certification - Updated

[stevelee]

Re: New Canon Camera Bodies Appear for Certification

Indeed. Even on my iPhone, which can display the % charge, that setting is off by default.

Under "Battery Health" my iPhone rates its battery as an 88. For someone of my generation that means "good beat; easy to dance to."

 

[Talys]

Who?
The guy trying to impose that there is no hardware in the camera able to measure and/or display better battery statsbetter way. It has been technically described in this thread, how it is possible with current hardware, and even more.
I haven´t seen anybody on that "not possible" side expressing himself with more knowledge at all.
What you write here is outright false. I didn´t end up without usable argument. I ended with negation and refusal to continue with nonrelated personal arguments, because of attempts for personal attacks, which I partially returned (my bad, but whatever).
Again. Even if I remained silent, that doesn´t make anybody being right instantly.
Wannabe forum leaders absolutely hate when someone comes in, and says just NO.

Yet you continue with pulling out personal stuff to feed your agenda. Weak.

omg. Why are there pages and pages on this forum about a freaking battery meter percentage indicator? Surely this is not a qualifying feature for a camera for most users, since an overwhelming majority of cameras sold do not indicate battery % in either the VF or LCD.

If you're not of that opinion, go start a battery indicator review website and plot out the accuracy of the indicators versus actual shots of every camera known to man, and make millions on the banner ads from the like-minded buyers who will flock to the site as a buying resource of which camera to buy. Forget DXOMark -- hello, BatteryIndicatorMark. There could even be a whole forum devoted to battery indicator talk. Just not... this one... please :

 

[stevelee]

Instead of putting a date stamp in the picture, I want a stamp that shows the battery percentage. How else will folks be able to evaluate the charge on the battery when I took the picture? None of my cameras at present even show that in the metadata for their pictures. I won't buy any more camera bodies until Canon quits omitting this feature. What kind of fools do they take us for?

 

[BillB]

Who?
The guy trying to impose that there is no hardware in the camera able to measure and/or display better battery statsbetter way. It has been technically described in this thread, how it is possible with current hardware, and even more.
I haven´t seen anybody on that "not possible" side expressing himself with more knowledge at all.
What you write here is outright false. I didn´t end up without usable argument. I ended with negation and refusal to continue with nonrelated personal arguments, because of attempts for personal attacks, which I partially returned (my bad, but whatever).
Again. Even if I remained silent, that doesn´t make anybody being right instantly.
Wannabe forum leaders absolutely hate when someone comes in, and says just NO.

Yet you continue with pulling out personal stuff to feed your agenda. Weak.

omg. Why are there pages and pages on this forum about a freaking battery meter percentage indicator? Surely this is not a qualifying feature for a camera for most users, since an overwhelming majority of cameras sold do not indicate battery % in either the VF or LCD.

If you're not of that opinion, go start a battery indicator review website and plot out the accuracy of the indicators versus actual shots of every camera known to man, and make millions on the banner ads from the like-minded buyers who will flock to the site as a buying resource of which camera to buy. Forget DXOMark -- hello, BatteryIndicatorMark. There could even be a whole forum devoted to battery indicator talk. Just not... this one... please :

I have to admit that the great battery indicator crusade has been quite an impressive achievement in generatiing thread pages out of very little at all. Who would have thought....

 

[fullstop]

@talys
i started the battery gauge discussion, simply by making a bit of a flippant statement, that new Canon cameras seem to be differentiated by tiny minutiae details like "4-stage vs. 6- stage" battery charge indicators. and that i'd rather like a percentage accurate gauge.

that statement did ofc not sit well with a few canapo.. errm esteemed fellow forum members. and from there it spread out. that was not my intention. i did not want to troll. i really would appreciate accurate AND more orecise battery gauges. and i still believe it would be possible with quite little effort and cost. but ... lol

 

[Durf]

Who?
The guy trying to impose that there is no hardware in the camera able to measure and/or display better battery statsbetter way. It has been technically described in this thread, how it is possible with current hardware, and even more.
I haven´t seen anybody on that "not possible" side expressing himself with more knowledge at all.
What you write here is outright false. I didn´t end up without usable argument. I ended with negation and refusal to continue with nonrelated personal arguments, because of attempts for personal attacks, which I partially returned (my bad, but whatever).
Again. Even if I remained silent, that doesn´t make anybody being right instantly.
Wannabe forum leaders absolutely hate when someone comes in, and says just NO.

Yet you continue with pulling out personal stuff to feed your agenda. Weak.

omg. Why are there pages and pages on this forum about a freaking battery meter percentage indicator? Surely this is not a qualifying feature for a camera for most users, since an overwhelming majority of cameras sold do not indicate battery % in either the VF or LCD.

If you're not of that opinion, go start a battery indicator review website and plot out the accuracy of the indicators versus actual shots of every camera known to man, and make millions on the banner ads from the like-minded buyers who will flock to the site as a buying resource of which camera to buy. Forget DXOMark -- hello, BatteryIndicatorMark. There could even be a whole forum devoted to battery indicator talk. Just not... this one... please :

I have to admit that the great battery indicator crusade has been quite an impressive achievement in generatiing thread pages out of very little at all. Who would have thought....

It's only because Sony has the % indicator and Canon doesn't, thus completely making the Sony the far superior camera.

A % symbol on the back of a camera can be an Earth shattering experience for some!

 

[HarryFilm]

@talys
i started the battery gauge discussion, simply by making a bit of a flippant statement, that new Canon cameras seem to be differentiated by tiny minutiae details like "4-stage vs. 6- stage" battery charge indicators. and that i'd rather like a percentage accurate gauge.

that statement did ofc not sit well with a few canapo..[\s] errm esteemed fellow forum members. and from there it spread out. that was not my intention. i did not want to troll. i really would appreciate accurate AND more orecise battery gauges. and i still believe it would be possible with quite little effort and cost. but ... lol

---

If you want to SOLVE this issue with a battery meter, JUST GET A BIGGER BATTERY!

...OR...do what we do! We take out the individual cells from a Canon battery case and put in a transformer, some shunting circuits, some external-to-case wiring, get it certified by the electrical engineers and PRESTO, we can use THESE batteries put into a custom box underneath the camera grip:

the NP1B-style batteries:

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/389035-REG/IDX_NP_L7S_NP_L7S_NP_1_Style_Lithium_Ion.html



...OR....

this REALLY BIG ONE at 293 watts which should last ALL DAY and NIGHT:

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1409382-REG/bebob_engineering_a290rm_cine_snap_on_high_load_battery.html

YEAH! It's a bit heavy but hey! what works is what works!

 

[Kit.]

I would be more interested to see, what the charge in % is,

In % of what?

Electric charge in coulombs? No, you are not interested to see it, because it guarantees you nothing. Your camera will stop (due to undervoltage) long before it would be able to consume all this charge.

And how exactly long before it will stop before depends on the camera usage. So you will want to see different gauges for "% for shooting video with manual focus on tripod", "% for shooting video with autofocus and IS", "% for shooting photos with autofocus but no internal flash with room temperature", "% for shooting photos with autofocus and internal flash with room temperature", "% for shooting photos with autofocus but no internal flash with <preset> temperature", "% for shooting photos with autofocus and internal flash with <preset> temperature" and so on, right?

Or do you want a battery/camera to intentionally underreport its charge in order to guarantee the availability of the percentage it shows? So it will show 0% when it could actually take a hundred more of OVF non-IS manual focus shots?

 

[fullstop]

i want to see "remaining charge in % [of full charge]". It is not difficult to do. Even Canon ahs it implemented in amny DSLRs, just buried in a menu. I would like to see it on the real LCD and in viewfidner, unless i chosse to suppress the info display.

but probably too hard tio understand for some canapolo errm "fellow forum mates" here who unsucessfully try to be as obtusive as possible. LOL. and f u.

 

[3kramd5]

Calling someone anything for wanting usable feature is no reasonable point in the forum too.

Agreed. Wanting a feature is reasonable. So is asking for that feature. Expounding on the benefits of that feature is also quite reasonable.

What's not reasonable is claiming that millions of others also want that feature, with no evidence to support that claim. What's not reasonable is claiming Canon could easily implement that feature but chooses not to for nefarious reasons, with no evidence to support that claim. What's not reasonable is claiming that the lack of that feature makes a camera sh!t. What's not reasonable is calling someone anything for not seeing a personal need for that feature, or for providing technical information as to why implementing that feature may be technically challenging or may not be cost-effective.

Hopefully you can understand and appreciate the difference.

Harry could write the code in just a few minutes. Costs nothing.

Harry is busy making a GPS receiver in what is essentially a faraday cage by reconfiguring the logic gates in an internal processor. He’ll be done shortly but then sell it to Kodak for “private island money”.

 

[unfocused]

omg. Why are there pages and pages on this forum about a freaking battery meter percentage indicator? Surely this is not a qualifying feature for a camera for most users...

I have to admit that the great battery indicator crusade has been quite an impressive achievement in generatiing thread pages out of very little at all. Who would have thought....

Apparently they are unaware that Canon sells batteries as a separate item so that you can actually buy an extra battery and keep it with you.

 

[Kit.]

i want to see "remaining charge in % [of full charge]". It is not difficult to do.

What do you mean by "remaining charge in % [of full charge]"? Remaining for what? And if that (for which the charge is remaining) consumes charge non-linearly, should the % be the real % of the charge or the % of charge corrected for this non-linearity?

Even Canon ahs it implemented in amny DSLRs, just buried in a menu.

And what does Canon mean by that?

 

[fullstop]

i want to see "remaining charge in % [of full charge]". It is not difficult to do.

What do you mean by "remaining charge in % [of full charge]"? Remaining for what? And if that (for which the charge is remaining) consumes charge non-linearly, should the % be the real % of the charge or the % of charge corrected for this non-linearity?

Even Canon ahs it implemented in amny DSLRs, just buried in a menu.

And what does Canon mean by that?

i just love you techno-babble nitpickers.

Full charge. Yes, I know, technically there is no such thing, it is infinitesimally "below full charge the very moment it comes out of charger, like acanon camera taken out of its original packaging drops to 50% resale value that very instant .. but quite straightforward, i really dont give a f*ck about your techno-babble
FULL is "as FULL as those f*cking Canon batteries get fresh out of charger" = 100%

Battery f*cking EMPTY [technically: voltage has dripped so low, that onöly camera operation left is flashing "battery exhausted on LCD" = 0%.

Everything in between is "percent charge remaining" ... straightforward totally LINEAR. No f*cking decibels. No f*cking negative values. no logarithms. No obfuscating. No techno pseudo-engineering babble. Just straightforward percentage.

got it, canapolo .. dear nitpicking fellow forum mates?

 

[Ozarker]

Calling someone anything for wanting usable feature is no reasonable point in the forum too.

Agreed. Wanting a feature is reasonable. So is asking for that feature. Expounding on the benefits of that feature is also quite reasonable.

What's not reasonable is claiming that millions of others also want that feature, with no evidence to support that claim. What's not reasonable is claiming Canon could easily implement that feature but chooses not to for nefarious reasons, with no evidence to support that claim. What's not reasonable is claiming that the lack of that feature makes a camera sh!t. What's not reasonable is calling someone anything for not seeing a personal need for that feature, or for providing technical information as to why implementing that feature may be technically challenging or may not be cost-effective.

Hopefully you can understand and appreciate the difference.

Harry could write the code in just a few minutes. Costs nothing.

Harry is busy making a GPS receiver in what is essentially a faraday cage by reconfiguring the logic gates in an internal processor. He’ll be done shortly but then sell it to Kodak for “private island money”.

I heard he was going to buy Maui.

 

[Cthulhu]

Again you with your silly arguments that if Canon does not do something, it must be because of some highly thought out process...that is specially ridiculous when referring to a company with a loooong history of not giving customers basic simple functions that it's competitors offer all the time. Give yourself a break, it must be exhausting to always have to defend silly stuff. I see my 1dx mk2 as very much a precision instrument, why argue against it being more precise? Canon is extremely slow to improve and hardly listens to feedback from it's customers - save for industry wide outrage like with the 5dmk 4 clog, which is more listening to retailers than it's own customers.

Here's the one scenario where a % indicator would be very useful to me: action shots. Be it sports or wildlife, when you can't control the action, knowing whether you have 10% or 1% can mean the difference btw getting that special moment or missing it because you were swapping batteries that could have gotten you through. There are obvious practical arguments for a percentage indicator, none for it's absence.

It must be exhausting to think that your personal needs and wants represent those of the majority of Canon’s customers. Give yourself a break and try to come to grips with the fact that Canon knows more about the wants/needs of the overall market than you or I.

What if in your scenario your indicator read 10%, but with a ±10% accuracy you really had only one shot left on the battery. But you thought you had 10%, so you didn’t swap batteries...and you missed that special moment. Maybe if you had ‘one bar’ you’d have already changed your battery, and that special moment would be hanging on your wall as a large print or earning you serious royalties. As has been pointed out by others, precision ≠ accuracy.

When did I say my needs or wants represent those of the majority?

Also your alternate scenario is silly, they don't make them with such inaccurate readouts now, why would you expect it to change? Not to mention that 1 bar can get you hundreds of shots.

 

[Kit.]

i want to see "remaining charge in % [of full charge]". It is not difficult to do.

What do you mean by "remaining charge in % [of full charge]"? Remaining for what? And if that (for which the charge is remaining) consumes charge non-linearly, should the % be the real % of the charge or the % of charge corrected for this non-linearity?

Even Canon ahs it implemented in amny DSLRs, just buried in a menu.

And what does Canon mean by that?

i just love you techno-babble nitpickers.

Full charge. Yes, I know, technically there is no such thing, it is infinitesimally "below full charge the very moment it comes out of charger, like acanon camera taken out of its original packaging drops to 50% resale value that very instant .. but quite straightforward, i really dont give a f*ck about your techno-babble

Don't they teach physics in school in your country? Ohm's law, for example? Coulomb's law?

FULL is "as FULL as those f*cking Canon batteries get fresh out of charger" = 100%

OK, a battery can mark itself as "100%" when it cannot be charged further. Which doesn't necessarily mean that it holds as much charge in coulombs as a new battery that cannot be charged further.

Now, how should a battery that left the charger not fully charged mark itself?

Battery f*cking EMPTY [technically: voltage has dripped so low, that onöly camera operation left is flashing "battery exhausted on LCD" = 0%.

This camera condition doesn't correspond to any particular value of charge in battery. In fact, when my PowerShot switches into this condition for the first time and I don't have a spare battery with me I just remove and reinsert the battery - and continue shooting.

Everything in between is "percent charge remaining" ... straightforward totally LINEAR. No f*cking decibels. No f*cking negative values. no logarithms. No obfuscating. No techno pseudo-engineering babble. Just straightforward percentage.

Percentage of what? Do you really not know which physical property you mean by "charge" here? Looks so.

 

[Talys]

Now, how should a battery that left the charger not fully charged mark itself?

I have a novel idea...

Good 'nuff:

· [ O O O O ]

Could use more juice:

· [ O O O ]

What, didn't you see it was still flashing slow when you yanked it?

· [ O O ]

You're probably gonna run dry but good luck:

· [ O ]

You didn't plug in the charger, dude:

· [ ]

 

[fullstop]

Percentage of what? Do you really not know which physical property you mean by "charge" here? Looks so.

OMFG ... "incessant semantics nitpicking". A telltale characteristic of Canapo ... errm a few esteemed fellow forum members here. But - no problem.

100% = full charge = as printed on battery. [alternatively: or "as much as a used, but still functional battery will hold".] After some thought, I would prefer the nominal charge printed on battery to be the 100% yardstick. If a (used) battery only gets to say 80% of that, I would like the meter to start count down from 80%. That way I get a clue about battery health condition along with knowing how much juice is left.

0% = voltage drops so low, that camera is no longer operational; not including sometimes possible stop gap measures like taking out and re-inserting for a few more shots. [whatever the specific voltage value for a specific camera model is - it is available to firmware].

50% = midpoint between 100 and 0% as per definition above.

 

[3kramd5]

After some thought, I would prefer the nominal charge printed on battery to be the 100% yardstick. If a (used) battery only gets to say 80% of that, I would like the meter to start count down from 80%. That way I get a clue about battery health condition along with knowing how much juice is left.

The only way I am aware of to quantify the capacity (e.g. watt-hours or the commonly used surrogate amp-hours) is to discharge the battery to a constant load, and time it.

If you had a camera with independent batteries, one could conceivably power the monitoring of another’s constant load discharge, yielding a number to ratio with the spec sheet value.

I am not an EE, so maybe I’m missing the obvious.

 

[fullstop]

well, i am "just a user". As such I simply don't accept, that % battery meters are possible and implemented in many smartphones and in some cameras, including e.g. Canon 5D series, only buried in a menu, instead of on screen. With a user menu toggle to switch between OFF, bar indicator, percent #, both.

Ideally I'd not even like to see % battery charge remaining, but "range" information, as in cars where we get quite good "range km/miles left" predictions, based on current consumption and previous consumption and whatever sensor inputs and AI. Not to mention a Tesla instrument panel ...

Why not use the same concept on camera displays and/or in viewfinder: predicted (!) "number of shots left" [stills capture] or "minutes of video recording left" [video capture]. In 2018 this should really be possible in any camera without major engineering breakthroughs, programming miracles or excessive additional cost. No?