New Canon Camera Bodies Appear for Certification - Updated

Talys

Canon R5
CR Pro
Feb 16, 2017
2,110
414
Vancouver, BC
Here you go... battery meter at its finest.
 

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Kit.

EOS 5D Mark IV
Apr 25, 2011
2,217
1,531
fullstop said:
Kit. said:
Well, that's a good reason for a manufacturer to not provide such misleadingly "precise" indicator to you.

well, I'd like to hear what a(ny) pilot would say, if a brand new 2018 aircraft came equipped with a "remaining-fuel-in-tanks-indicator" with "4 stages" [small Canon plane] or a more luxurious "6-stage" version [only in Canon top level airliners]. ;D

Would you want to board that plane if the guy goes ... "no problem, I'll wing it [pun intended]. We fill'er up pretty good in LAX and so far we have always made it to JFK. And if the indicator really drops to 1 blob, I'll simply land in between for a quick re-fuel stop. Don't you worry, boy!"
...which is how it actually works with airliners.

Not the precision of the indicators (the indicators are accurate up to 3% of fuel tank capacity, which is not that hard for a fuel tank - I don't think you are ready to pay the cost of batteries that can guarantee such accuracy of their remaining charge) - these indicators are typically used to control how much fuel is filled up at the ground. But you don't start with not enough fuel to reach the destination airport plus the reserve destination airport, and you only need to look at the indicators to see if you have a fuel leak - or if you know that you have a technical problem that can lead to higher fuel consumption than expected (but you still don't want to land on the nearest suitable airstrip).
 

snappy604

EOS RP
CR Pro
Jan 25, 2017
604
540
what an incredible waste of time and effort on battery indicators when the subject was really about possible new bodies.

Not a canon apologist, I get annoyed some stuff seems nerfed on purpose for market segmentation... but you're getting too worked up and off topic on a battery indicator.

To most people it's a useful indicator if we should swap out batteries soon or not. Do I care if it's at 6% vs 5% vs 10%? nope.. i've swapped out before then. I can't recall ever worrying about this as I always have spares.
 

neuroanatomist

I post too Much on Here!!
CR Pro
Jul 21, 2010
26,397
5,154
Cthulhu said:
Again you with your silly arguments that if Canon does not do something, it must be because of some highly thought out process...that is specially ridiculous when referring to a company with a loooong history of not giving customers basic simple functions that it's competitors offer all the time. Give yourself a break, it must be exhausting to always have to defend silly stuff. I see my 1dx mk2 as very much a precision instrument, why argue against it being more precise? Canon is extremely slow to improve and hardly listens to feedback from it's customers - save for industry wide outrage like with the 5dmk 4 clog, which is more listening to retailers than it's own customers.

Here's the one scenario where a % indicator would be very useful to me: action shots. Be it sports or wildlife, when you can't control the action, knowing whether you have 10% or 1% can mean the difference btw getting that special moment or missing it because you were swapping batteries that could have gotten you through. There are obvious practical arguments for a percentage indicator, none for it's absence.

It must be exhausting to think that your personal needs and wants represent those of the majority of Canon’s customers. Give yourself a break and try to come to grips with the fact that Canon knows more about the wants/needs of the overall market than you or I.

What if in your scenario your indicator read 10%, but with a ±10% accuracy you really had only one shot left on the battery. But you thought you had 10%, so you didn’t swap batteries...and you missed that special moment. Maybe if you had ‘one bar’ you’d have already changed your battery, and that special moment would be hanging on your wall as a large print or earning you serious royalties. As has been pointed out by others, precision ≠ accuracy.
 

neuroanatomist

I post too Much on Here!!
CR Pro
Jul 21, 2010
26,397
5,154
snappy604 said:
To most people it's a useful indicator if we should swap out batteries soon or not. Do I care if it's at 6% vs 5% vs 10%? nope.. i've swapped out before then. I can't recall ever worrying about this as I always have spares.

+1

Some people like to burn the last fumes of gasoline in their tank then coast into the gas station for a fill up. I suppose some people think that’s brave or ‘gutsy’, personally I think it’s just foolish.
 

fullstop

EOS R
Apr 23, 2018
1,088
153
neuroanatomist said:
snappy604 said:
To most people it's a useful indicator if we should swap out batteries soon or not. Do I care if it's at 6% vs 5% vs 10%? nope.. i've swapped out before then. I can't recall ever worrying about this as I always have spares.

+1

Some people like to burn the last fumes of gasoline in their tank then coast into the gas station for a fill up. I suppose some people think that’s brave or ‘gutsy’, personally I think it’s just foolish.

have to admit guilty. Done that. Been there. Went out of Las Vegas one fine sunny day. rental car, "it'll go anywhere'. Tank half full. Lots and lots of gas stations. "Maybe the next one is even lower price, said the nice young woman next to me". OK, keep going. Southerly direction, into the Mojave desert. 110° in the shade, but there was no shade. Decided to turn AC off to save fuel. Gauge kept falling. Somehow made it all the way to Hwy 10. Surfed in the slipstream of some giant tractor trailers. Made it to a gas station. On the vr last molecules of gasoline fumes. Literally. The pretty girl married me. True story. LOL
 

nchoh

EOS RP
Apr 3, 2018
310
197
Calgary
fullstop said:
Kit. said:
Well, that's a good reason for a manufacturer to not provide such misleadingly "precise" indicator to you.

well, I'd like to hear what a(ny) pilot would say, if a brand new 2018 aircraft came equipped with a "remaining-fuel-in-tanks-indicator" with "4 stages" [small Canon plane] or a more luxurious "6-stage" version [only in Canon top level airliners]. ;D

Would you want to board that plane if the guy goes ... "no problem, I'll wing it [pun intended]. We fill'er up pretty good in LAX and so far we have always made it to JFK. And if the indicator really drops to 1 blob, I'll simply land in between for a quick re-fuel stop. Don't you worry, boy!"

But ofc your mileage may vary (pun intended). ;D

And I would like to see a photographer look at his camera and say "Oh crap, I only have 12% battery left, I better not shoot any more, cause I might fall out of the sky and die!"

Any what's with Canon, I mean the Camera screen is so huge that we could fit a few hundred more gauges on it, why are they being so stingy?
 

Mikehit

EOS R6
Jul 28, 2015
3,353
557
fullstop said:
The pretty girl married me. True story. LOL

Does she come with a 'nearly full' meter when taking her out for a meal?

Or a 'need hugs' meter when you have been spending time on photo forums(s) and not paying her enough attention? I presume that comes in the form of raised eyebrows....
 

fullstop

EOS R
Apr 23, 2018
1,088
153
Mikehit said:
fullstop said:
The pretty girl married me. True story. LOL

Does she come with a 'nearly full' meter when taking her out for a meal?

Or a 'need hugs' meter when you have been spending time on photo forums(s) and not paying her enough attention? I presume that comes in the form of raised eyebrows....

oh well, sometimes she definitely is 100% pissed off with me. :)
 

Talys

Canon R5
CR Pro
Feb 16, 2017
2,110
414
Vancouver, BC
fullstop said:
Mikehit said:
fullstop said:
The pretty girl married me. True story. LOL

Does she come with a 'nearly full' meter when taking her out for a meal?

Or a 'need hugs' meter when you have been spending time on photo forums(s) and not paying her enough attention? I presume that comes in the form of raised eyebrows....

oh well, sometimes she definitely is 100% pissed off with me. :)

The accuracy of the gauge is critical, though, because it is an exponential, not linear, curve. The first 40% is consumed pretty slowly, but the last 60% you can zoom right through.

Hey, kind of like the fuel gauge on my 90s Corvette. That thing used to go from one third to empty like a falcon in a dive.
 

BillB

EOS R
May 11, 2017
1,393
659
Talys said:
fullstop said:
Mikehit said:
fullstop said:
The pretty girl married me. True story. LOL

Does she come with a 'nearly full' meter when taking her out for a meal?

Or a 'need hugs' meter when you have been spending time on photo forums(s) and not paying her enough attention? I presume that comes in the form of raised eyebrows....

oh well, sometimes she definitely is 100% pissed off with me. :)

The accuracy of the gauge is critical, though, because it is an exponential, not linear, curve. The first 40% is consumed pretty slowly, but the last 60% you can zoom right through.

Hey, kind of like the fuel gauge on my 90s Corvette. That thing used to go from one third to empty like a falcon in a dive.

Cross section of the tank can have that effect if the gas gauge is a simple depth gauge. You have to pay attention if you are in a truck with a cylindrical tank.
 

Chaitanya

EOS 5D Mark IV
Jun 27, 2013
1,510
683
35
Pune
Cthulhu said:
fullstop said:
Speaking of battery gauge accuracy. Just made a truly shocking discovery! Maybe there is no "100% charged state" at all! At least not in Fujifilm cameras, according to their official info on the subject [XT-2 manual http://fujifilm-dsc.com/en/manual/x-t2_v21/first_step/battery_level/index.html.

FULL BARS = "Battery partially discharged". ;D :eek:

dupbcbncr5j0bw52b.jpg


Maybe their legal department nerfed the manual! ;D ;D ;D

That's because there's no such thing as a fully charged battery, they all begin discharge the moment you take it out of the charger - but you know that seeing as you're an electrical engineer, no?
Time taken to reach each end of capacity is infinite as both are exponential functions so yes there are no such things are fully charged/discharged capacitors/cells.
 

sanj

EOS R5
Jan 22, 2012
4,034
904
neuroanatomist said:
sanj said:
Mind numbing to see people not preferring a precise battery status bar.

What’s mind-numbing is the thinking that because you want a % charge readout or a ‘precise’ batttery bar, everyone should have that same desire. I don’t think anyone is saying those would be undesirable, but it’s like wanting more DR – even if no one would say no to it, for many there’s just no meaningful benefit.

I always have a charged spare battery. If the indicator drops to less than ‘full’ (e.g., one bar down, meaning ~50% charge left), I swap in the charged battery and recharge the one from the camera. Whether the information is graphical or numerical doesn’t matter, and won’t change my behavior.

Moreover, as was pointed out above, the higher end bodies/batteries do permit a % charge readout. If that % can be displayed via menu commands, it can also be displayed on a shooting display – in the VF, on a top LCD, or on the main LCD during shooting operations (although the first two may require a hardware change), and it could be displayed in addition to or instead of the graphical ‘bar’ display. So, why hasn’t Canon implemented that? I sincerely doubt it’s because they can’t spare the programming resources to do so. It’s also highly unlikely they haven’t thought of it...after all, probably every engineer/designer/marketer/etc. has a smartphone with the capability to display a numerical % charge for the battery. If it’s not inability or ignorance, it must be an intentional decision. It’s also highly unlikely that that it’s because ‘marketing’ has decided to ‘nerf’ the cameras...far more likely, it is a design/UI decision to keep the interface uncluttered, providing a quick but unobtrusive way for users to access the information at a level of detail that’s relevant and sufficient.


sanj said:
Hahahahah. NO. There are many a times when we run low on battery and while other battery is being charged and we need to know how far we can push it. Happens often while shooting video.

Knowing how far you can push it depends not on the precision of the charge measurement, but on it’s accuracy. If you have a % charge indicator, and it shows 10% remaining with an accuracy of ±10%, your battery could die at any time. Here’s a tip: if you often find yourself running low on one battery while the other battery is being charged, you need a third battery. Similarly, if you can exhaust a battery in less time than it takes to charge a battery, add a second charger.

Some people prefer to implement simple, logical, feasible solutions to problems. Other people prefer to blame the manufacturer and continue to suffer. If being in the latter group works for you, that’s your choice.

I never mentioned % indicator. You ASSumed that. I just mentioned precise battery read out. And if people like you are ok with inaccurate meters, good for you. I would find it beneficial to have a proper meter.
 

neuroanatomist

I post too Much on Here!!
CR Pro
Jul 21, 2010
26,397
5,154
sanj said:
I never mentioned % indicator. You ASSumed that. I just mentioned precise battery read out. And if people like you are ok with inaccurate meters, good for you. I would find it beneficial to have a proper meter.

I never mentioned being ok with an innacurate meter. You ASSumed that. What I said was a more precise battery indicatior would not change my behavior wrt changing out batteries.

The current meter display is perfectly proper. It displays an approximate charge level and warns of impending need to change the battery. You may not like it, and may want something different, but that's your problem.
 

sanj

EOS R5
Jan 22, 2012
4,034
904
neuroanatomist said:
sanj said:
I never mentioned % indicator. You ASSumed that. I just mentioned precise battery read out. And if people like you are ok with inaccurate meters, good for you. I would find it beneficial to have a proper meter.

I never mentioned being ok with an innacurate meter. You ASSumed that. What I said was a more precise battery indicatior would not change my behavior wrt changing out batteries.

The current meter display is perfectly proper. It displays an approximate charge level and warns of impending need to change the battery. You may not like it, and may want something different, but that's your problem.

"because you want a % charge readout or a ‘precise’ batttery bar, everyone should have that same desire. I don’t think anyone is saying those would be undesirable, but it’s like wanting more DR – even if no one would say no to it, for many there’s just no meaningful benefit. " lol
 

crashpc

EOS RP
Jan 19, 2014
368
7
neuroanatomist said:
sanj said:
I never mentioned % indicator. You ASSumed that. I just mentioned precise battery read out. And if people like you are ok with inaccurate meters, good for you. I would find it beneficial to have a proper meter.

I never mentioned being ok with an innacurate meter. You ASSumed that. What I said was a more precise battery indicatior would not change my behavior wrt changing out batteries.

The current meter display is perfectly proper. It displays an approximate charge level and warns of impending need to change the battery. You may not like it, and may want something different, but that's your problem.

I wonder if that was what Canon rep would answer to us. Once customers are unhappy, it should be solved. Mostly happened with the DR thingie, and will happen with other things. We do not care that you are happy with the crappy battery level indication either, neuro. It's your problem that you like it. :-D
 

neuroanatomist

I post too Much on Here!!
CR Pro
Jul 21, 2010
26,397
5,154
sanj said:
neuroanatomist said:
sanj said:
I never mentioned % indicator. You ASSumed that. I just mentioned precise battery read out. And if people like you are ok with inaccurate meters, good for you. I would find it beneficial to have a proper meter.

I never mentioned being ok with an innacurate meter. You ASSumed that. What I said was a more precise battery indicatior would not change my behavior wrt changing out batteries.

The current meter display is perfectly proper. It displays an approximate charge level and warns of impending need to change the battery. You may not like it, and may want something different, but that's your problem.

"because you want a % charge readout or a ‘precise’ batttery bar, everyone should have that same desire. I don’t think anyone is saying those would be undesirable, but it’s like wanting more DR – even if no one would say no to it, for many there’s just no meaningful benefit. " lol

Did you have a point? Other than confirming that I accurately summed up what I had previously stated, I mean.
 

fullstop

EOS R
Apr 23, 2018
1,088
153
at the end of the day the question is: if a certain functionality is seen as useful by some/many users, should they be denied that functionality even when it does not harm those not interested in it? and especially when said feature can be implemented at very little cost and in a way that it is user-selectable? like a little puece of software that shows % charge remaining in addition to or alternatively to a "bar meter"? :)

or: using a 2018 higher charge battery pack in all new 2018 cameras, when the battery is readily available, can (very likely) be sourced at very similar cost per unit and would not make camera shells noticable bulkier - if at all?

especially when Canon and all other makers put video recording ability into each and every of their cameras - even when many stills-only shooters never will use that feature - and even when it causes extra costs (and higher sales prices) to include the functionality as well as some potentially or actually negative "side-effects".
 

Mikehit

EOS R6
Jul 28, 2015
3,353
557
crashpc said:
Once customers are unhappy, it should be solved.

There is a man who has never been involved in technical development, and especially not the cost benefit analysis of implementing a problem.
If by 'customers' you mean a majority to make it worthwhile, do you have any evidence that the accuracy of a battery meter is an issue for a majority of camera users?