New Canon Camera Bodies Appear for Certification - Updated

[3kramd5]

This thread illustrates that some people will argue over the most ridiculous stuff. It’s a battery level indicator. Who cares?

i do. Only Canapologists would not.

So, this "Canapoligist" is only a meaningless label for people that don't agree with you?

no. "Can-apologist" is my shorthand term for a small number of forum colleagues here [less than a dozen] who immediately launch a full-blown "apology" for any shortcoming or even the most blatant lack of functionality in Canon products or Canon business practices and corporate behavior, e.g. marketing differentiation including "nerfing" - as soon as I "dare to" mention them, even only in passing.

To me it appears to be a condition caused by a combination of Pavlovs reflex ... "dog starts salivating when it hears the bell, even when there is no food around" ... and cognitive dissonance ... "buyers remorse" ... Canon is "da best, since I bought it!". ;D

But I have been asked to kindly refrain from using the term, since it may be perceived as "slightly derogatory" and I will honor the request. 8)

What’s really interesting to me is: it seems like you, who aren’t really a current canon camera customer, seem to care far more about what canon does or does not do, than current canon customers.

I, for one example, am a current canon camera customer. I bought an interchangeable lens for the EF system two days ago. I don’t care what canon does. If the company cratered with the much-predicted doom, I’d care in so far as I’d be excited at the prospect of buying stuff in a fire sale. If they make products and offer a good value proposition I’ll buy them. If they don’t, I won’t. I know they aren’t the only game in town, and I’ve tried some of the other games (Sony - A7Rii owned and A7Riii rented; Nikon D7000 owned).

There is no buyers remorse or sycophantic loyalty; there is 1) dispassionate technical discussion, and 2) tit-for-tat response to antagonistic language.

That doesn't explain your belief that "only Canapologists" wouldn't care about replacing a multi-segment battery charge indicator with something more verbose.

that was the impression i got during the discussion. Same as the "18% less shot reach for no real reason discussion due to whimpy Battery in EOS M50" discussion.

My expectation would have been, that *everybody* would find more shot reach and a clear, more precise battery gauge preferable and would agree that Canon really should [have] deliver[ed] in these 2 areas.

But ... apparently not.

Ah, see here is the problem. All else being equal, everyone would like a bigger battery. No one doesn’t want a % battery display (at worst people don’t care). Like in the M50 thread, you are confusing dispute of your accusation that what you present as shortcomings are due to marketing’s interference with engineering for a tacit approval of those said shortcomings.

“Canon marketing overrode the design engineers to nerf the M50 battery selection.” [lightly paraphrased]

“Probably not, more likely marketing drove the target MSRP and margin, and the trade studies yielded the older battery, which they probably produce more cheaply, as satisfying the cost side of the targets.”

“OMG HOW COULD YOU NOT WANT A BIGGER BATTERY? YOU MUST WORK FOR CANON MARKETING OR OTHERWISE BE PAID BY CANON!” [lightly paraphrased]

It’s similar here:
“You can do something with firmware.”
“[bunch of technical talk].”
“OMG HOW COULD YOU NOT WANT THAT FIRMWARE FUNCTION? YOU MUST BE A BLIND CANOPOLOGIST!” [lightly paraphrased]

 

[jayphotoworks]

Battery indicators: When the got dang thing flashes, change out the got dang battery. 10% or 5%, who gives a crap? Comparing it to the fuel gauge on a car? Stupid. Same thing: when it gets low... fill the got dang thing up! Skipping the gas station because you think you can get another 20 miles? Idiot.

Hahahahah. NO. There are many a times when we run low on battery and while other battery is being charged and we need to know how far we can push it. Happens often while shooting video.

Canon's display for remaining recording capacity in video mode is also not what you would expect. Last time I shot Canon, the remaining capacity for video shown in LV shows 29:59 regardless of the card size, and not the actual time remaining on the card. This time only starts to drop once the remaining capacity on the card cannot fit a full 29:59 segment.

On most other cameras, this is straightforward: It shows you the actual remaining capacity based on the chosen format. If a memory card starts empty at 90mins for example, and I have 45mins remaining, my 64GB card is about ~32GB full. If I'm doing a same day edit, for example, I may choose to do a tactical reload early so my editor can offload, backup and edit while I shoot with a new blank card, especially if I know I have a long segment ahead where I may need a full card and don't want my editor waiting around until that segment is done to work on previously shot footage.

I understand that most digicams have to stop at 29:59 to avoid the EU video camera tax but Canon's decision to only display this without the actual remaining time for the sake of keeping it simple isn't simple, it's just stupid (to quote another poster)..

 

[jayphotoworks]

Fullstop,

Why don't you just register the Battery Info from the Menu into the "My Menu" page?
I did that and it takes about 5 seconds to push the Menu button, select My Menu (the Star on the right) and select the Battery Info.
Easy.
You won't have to "dive into the menu" when you want to see the percentage.

It isn't so simple as I posted previously. If the camera is on a gimbal or locked off on a crane, you can't easily dive into the menus.

 

[fullstop]

@Macoose: thx for your constructive hint. "Battery Info" is in MyMenu on my 5D3 since day 1 / initial setup. But it is a workaround. Still a menu action. I would like to see "percent remaining charge" on rear LCD - unless I specifically switch it off or suppress all "info" on LCD [via Info button].

EOS M does have a "MyMenu" but no "battery info" to display "percent charge remaining". Maybe as per 3kramd5's explanations either camera-hardware related and/or a "feature" of the whimpy old LP-E12 battery or otherwise "powershot firmware nerfing".

@3kramd5
CURRENTLY around 10k in Canon gear does make me a CURRENT Canon customer.
Quite possibly I am even in the top decile amongst all Canon non-pro stills imaging customers. 8) Definitely well above median ... 1.0 Rebel-class body plus 1.1 kit-zoom lenses.

SO I conclude that i am fully entitled to a good number of Canon-critical postings. While some may appear a bit exaggerated, none is "totally unjustified". Even when not all other Canon customer share all of my opinions. ;D

 

[Kit.]

There are many a times when we run low on battery and while other battery is being charged and we need to know how far we can push it. Happens often while shooting video.

And who would you blame if the battery ends sooner than you expected?

 

[3kramd5]

EOS M does have a "MyMenu" but no "battery info" to display "percent charge remaining". Maybe as per 3kramd5's explanations either camera-hardware related

And to be clear, I’m not saying conclusively why there is no battery info, just that batteries have to support it (like Sony’s iNFOlithium series, and many but likely not all canon batteries). If they don’t, it’s the same guesswork as the 4-6 block schema. They could make it display a percentage, but that percentage would be unreliable (see the previous multiple discussion since of accuracy versus precision). That’s why from my early replies I specifically referred to “meaningful” percentage display.

@3kramd5
CURRENTLY around 10k in Canon gear does make me a CURRENT Canon customer.

I currently have a Jeep I bought 7 years ago. I am not a current Chrysler customer.

When was the last time you exchanged money for camera camera/related goods from canon? I apologize if I’m wrong, but from other posts it seems to have been several years ago.

SO I conclude that i am fully entitled to a good number of Canon-critical postings.

I don’t think anyone would disagree with that. It’s the baseless accusations (either of the shadow hand of marketing sneaking over to the PLM system and swapping out components, or of forum members being on canon’s payroll when they don’t agree with your conclusions) which put people off.

 

[nchoh]

The battery life indicator argument lies on one false premise - a digital readout of the percentage of battery life is better than the bars. It is not.

A digital display provides more information than an analog display but an analog display is faster to read! This has been proven with analog versus digital watches. The battery bars is a digital implementation of an analog.

In the case of Canon DSLR where the battery life is seldom a problem, why burden the shooter with unnecessary information. In the case of Sony where the batteries were inadequate, the digital readout was necessary.

 

[sanj]

There are many a times when we run low on battery and while other battery is being charged and we need to know how far we can push it. Happens often while shooting video.

And who would you blame if the battery ends sooner than you expected?

The indicator meter. Or wait. The Russians?

 

[3kramd5]

The battery life indicator argument lies on one false premise - a digital readout of the percentage of battery life is better than the bars. It is not.

A digital display provides more information than an analog display but an analog display is faster to read! This has been proven with analog versus digital watches. The battery bars is a digital implementation of an analog.

In the case of Canon DSLR where the battery life is seldom a problem, why burden the shooter with unnecessary information. In the case of Sony where the batteries were inadequate, the digital readout was necessary.

I don’t think the rate at which one reads battery information is a reasonable basis to determine which display is better. If the 1/3 second extra it takes me makes a difference, then the battery is for all intents and purposes dead.

Watches are the same story. I can look at the hour hand alone and have a good estimate for what time it is - probably within about a 15 minute window on an average sized watch face. If I am using it to roughly gauge when I should start making dinner, that’s fine. If I’m using it to determine how quickly someone runs a lap, a digital stopwatch with sub-second resolution might be better.

 

[neuroanatomist]

Mind numbing to see people not preferring a precise battery status bar.

What’s mind-numbing is the thinking that because you want a % charge readout or a ‘precise’ batttery bar, everyone should have that same desire. I don’t think anyone is saying those would be undesirable, but it’s like wanting more DR – even if no one would say no to it, for many there’s just no meaningful benefit.

I always have a charged spare battery. If the indicator drops to less than ‘full’ (e.g., one bar down, meaning ~50% charge left), I swap in the charged battery and recharge the one from the camera. Whether the information is graphical or numerical doesn’t matter, and won’t change my behavior.

Moreover, as was pointed out above, the higher end bodies/batteries do permit a % charge readout. If that % can be displayed via menu commands, it can also be displayed on a shooting display – in the VF, on a top LCD, or on the main LCD during shooting operations (although the first two may require a hardware change), and it could be displayed in addition to or instead of the graphical ‘bar’ display. So, why hasn’t Canon implemented that? I sincerely doubt it’s because they can’t spare the programming resources to do so. It’s also highly unlikely they haven’t thought of it...after all, probably every engineer/designer/marketer/etc. has a smartphone with the capability to display a numerical % charge for the battery. If it’s not inability or ignorance, it must be an intentional decision. It’s also highly unlikely that that it’s because ‘marketing’ has decided to ‘nerf’ the cameras...far more likely, it is a design/UI decision to keep the interface uncluttered, providing a quick but unobtrusive way for users to access the information at a level of detail that’s relevant and sufficient.

Hahahahah. NO. There are many a times when we run low on battery and while other battery is being charged and we need to know how far we can push it. Happens often while shooting video.

Knowing how far you can push it depends not on the precision of the charge measurement, but on it’s accuracy. If you have a % charge indicator, and it shows 10% remaining with an accuracy of ±10%, your battery could die at any time. Here’s a tip: if you often find yourself running low on one battery while the other battery is being charged, you need a third battery. Similarly, if you can exhaust a battery in less time than it takes to charge a battery, add a second charger.

Some people prefer to implement simple, logical, feasible solutions to problems. Other people prefer to blame the manufacturer and continue to suffer. If being in the latter group works for you, that’s your choice.

 

[fullstop]

The battery life indicator argument lies on one false premise - a digital readout of the percentage of battery life is better than the bars. It is not.

A digital display provides more information than an analog display but an analog display is faster to read! This has been proven with analog versus digital watches. The battery bars is a digital implementation of an analog.

In the case of Canon DSLR where the battery life is seldom a problem, why burden the shooter with unnecessary information. In the case of Sony where the batteries were inadequate, the digital readout was necessary.

LOL.

In 2018 numerical and graphical/"analog" presentation of information can even be combined on an OLED display. Oh wow! In fighter jet HUDs and in cars' "digital dashboards"! And even in cameras from innovative makers who managed to develop the very, very advanced, rocket-science software code.

 

[Ian_of_glos]

Mind numbing to see people not preferring a precise battery status bar.

What’s mind-numbing is the thinking that because you want a % charge readout or a ‘precise’ batttery bar, everyone should have that same desire. I don’t think anyone is saying those would be undesirable, but it’s like wanting more DR – even if no one would say no to it, for many there’s just no meaningful benefit.

I always have a charged spare battery. If the indicator drops to less than ‘full’ (e.g., one bar down, meaning ~50% charge left), I swap in the charged battery and recharge the one from the camera. Whether the information is graphical or numerical doesn’t matter, and won’t change my behavior.

Moreover, as was pointed out above, the higher end bodies/batteries do permit a % charge readout. If that % can be displayed via menu commands, it can also be displayed on a shooting display – in the VF, on a top LCD, or on the main LCD during shooting operations (although the first two may require a hardware change), and it could be displayed in addition to or instead of the graphical ‘bar’ display. So, why hasn’t Canon implemented that? I sincerely doubt it’s because they can’t spare the programming resources to do so. It’s also highly unlikely they haven’t thought of it...after all, probably every engineer/designer/marketer/etc. has a smartphone with the capability to display a numerical % charge for the battery. If it’s not inability or ignorance, it must be an intentional decision. It’s also highly unlikely that that it’s because ‘marketing’ has decided to ‘nerf’ the cameras...far more likely, it is a design/UI decision to keep the interface uncluttered, providing a quick but unobtrusive way for users to access the information at a level of detail that’s relevant and sufficient.

Hahahahah. NO. There are many a times when we run low on battery and while other battery is being charged and we need to know how far we can push it. Happens often while shooting video.

Knowing how far you can push it depends not on the precision of the charge measurement, but on it’s accuracy. If you have a % charge indicator, and it shows 10% remaining with an accuracy of ±10%, your battery could die at any time. Here’s a tip: if you often find yourself running low on one battery while the other battery is being charged, you need a third battery. Similarly, if you can exhaust a battery in less time than it takes to charge a battery, add a second charger.

Some people prefer to implement simple, logical, feasible solutions to problems. Other people prefer to blame the manufacturer and continue to suffer. If being in the latter group works for you, that’s your choice.

That is pretty much what I do. When I have shot around 1,000 frames I wait for a suitable opportunity to switch to a fully charged battery. It quite often reaches 1,200 frames before I am able to do so but even then the battery indicator is still usually at 2 blobs. I don't really care whether that means it's 20% charged or 40% or 50% - I know from experience that if I allow it to drop to 1 blob then it is about to expire and it usually chooses the worst possible moment to power the camera down, so I never wait that long.

 

[Kit.]

There are many a times when we run low on battery and while other battery is being charged and we need to know how far we can push it. Happens often while shooting video.

And who would you blame if the battery ends sooner than you expected?

The indicator meter. Or wait. The Russians?

So, not a battery and definitely not yourself?

Well, that's a good reason for a manufacturer to not provide such misleadingly "precise" indicator to you.

 

[fullstop]

Speaking of battery gauge accuracy. Just made a truly shocking discovery! Maybe there is no "100% charged state" at all! At least not in Fujifilm cameras, according to their official info on the subject [XT-2 manual http://fujifilm-dsc.com/en/manual/x-t2_v21/first_step/battery_level/index.html.

FULL BARS = "Battery partially discharged". ;D

Maybe their legal department nerfed the manual! ;D ;D ;D

 

[fullstop]

Well, that's a good reason for a manufacturer to not provide such misleadingly "precise" indicator to you.

well, I'd like to hear what a(ny) pilot would say, if a brand new 2018 aircraft came equipped with a "remaining-fuel-in-tanks-indicator" with "4 stages" [small Canon plane] or a more luxurious "6-stage" version [only in Canon top level airliners]. ;D

Would you want to board that plane if the guy goes ... "no problem, I'll wing it [pun intended]. We fill'er up pretty good in LAX and so far we have always made it to JFK. And if the indicator really drops to 1 blob, I'll simply land in between for a quick re-fuel stop. Don't you worry, boy!"

But ofc your mileage may vary (pun intended). ;D

 

[Cthulhu]

Speaking of battery gauge accuracy. Just made a truly shocking discovery! Maybe there is no "100% charged state" at all! At least not in Fujifilm cameras, according to their official info on the subject [XT-2 manual http://fujifilm-dsc.com/en/manual/x-t2_v21/first_step/battery_level/index.html.

FULL BARS = "Battery partially discharged". ;D

Maybe their legal department nerfed the manual! ;D ;D ;D

That's because there's no such thing as a fully charged battery, they all begin discharge the moment you take it out of the charger - but you know that seeing as you're an electrical engineer, no?

 

[nchoh]

The battery life indicator argument lies on one false premise - a digital readout of the percentage of battery life is better than the bars. It is not.

A digital display provides more information than an analog display but an analog display is faster to read! This has been proven with analog versus digital watches. The battery bars is a digital implementation of an analog.

In the case of Canon DSLR where the battery life is seldom a problem, why burden the shooter with unnecessary information. In the case of Sony where the batteries were inadequate, the digital readout was necessary.

LOL.

In 2018 numerical and graphical/"analog" presentation of information can even be combined on an OLED display. Oh wow! In fighter jet HUDs and in cars' "digital dashboards"! And even in cameras from innovative makers who managed to develop the very, very advanced, rocket-science software code.

A "LOL!" but does not refute my arguments.

You win.

 

[Cthulhu]

Mind numbing to see people not preferring a precise battery status bar.

What’s mind-numbing is the thinking that because you want a % charge readout or a ‘precise’ batttery bar, everyone should have that same desire. I don’t think anyone is saying those would be undesirable, but it’s like wanting more DR – even if no one would say no to it, for many there’s just no meaningful benefit.

I always have a charged spare battery. If the indicator drops to less than ‘full’ (e.g., one bar down, meaning ~50% charge left), I swap in the charged battery and recharge the one from the camera. Whether the information is graphical or numerical doesn’t matter, and won’t change my behavior.

Moreover, as was pointed out above, the higher end bodies/batteries do permit a % charge readout. If that % can be displayed via menu commands, it can also be displayed on a shooting display – in the VF, on a top LCD, or on the main LCD during shooting operations (although the first two may require a hardware change), and it could be displayed in addition to or instead of the graphical ‘bar’ display. So, why hasn’t Canon implemented that? I sincerely doubt it’s because they can’t spare the programming resources to do so. It’s also highly unlikely they haven’t thought of it...after all, probably every engineer/designer/marketer/etc. has a smartphone with the capability to display a numerical % charge for the battery. If it’s not inability or ignorance, it must be an intentional decision. It’s also highly unlikely that that it’s because ‘marketing’ has decided to ‘nerf’ the cameras...far more likely, it is a design/UI decision to keep the interface uncluttered, providing a quick but unobtrusive way for users to access the information at a level of detail that’s relevant and sufficient.

Hahahahah. NO. There are many a times when we run low on battery and while other battery is being charged and we need to know how far we can push it. Happens often while shooting video.

Knowing how far you can push it depends not on the precision of the charge measurement, but on it’s accuracy. If you have a % charge indicator, and it shows 10% remaining with an accuracy of ±10%, your battery could die at any time. Here’s a tip: if you often find yourself running low on one battery while the other battery is being charged, you need a third battery. Similarly, if you can exhaust a battery in less time than it takes to charge a battery, add a second charger.

Some people prefer to implement simple, logical, feasible solutions to problems. Other people prefer to blame the manufacturer and continue to suffer. If being in the latter group works for you, that’s your choice.

Again you with your silly arguments that if Canon does not do something, it must be because of some highly thought out process...that is specially ridiculous when referring to a company with a loooong history of not giving customers basic simple functions that it's competitors offer all the time. Give yourself a break, it must be exhausting to always have to defend silly stuff. I see my 1dx mk2 as very much a precision instrument, why argue against it being more precise? Canon is extremely slow to improve and hardly listens to feedback from it's customers - save for industry wide outrage like with the 5dmk 4 clog, which is more listening to retailers than it's own customers.

Here's the one scenario where a % indicator would be very useful to me: action shots. Be it sports or wildlife, when you can't control the action, knowing whether you have 10% or 1% can mean the difference btw getting that special moment or missing it because you were swapping batteries that could have gotten you through. There are obvious practical arguments for a percentage indicator, none for it's absence.

 

[fullstop]

That's because there's no such thing as a fully charged battery, they all begin discharge the moment you take it out of the charger - but you know that seeing as you're an electrical engineer, no?

I knew that was coming!

Couldn't they label it "almost FULL"? Should be technically and legally OK? ;D

 

[3kramd5]

That's because there's no such thing as a fully charged battery, they all begin discharge the moment you take it out of the charger - but you know that seeing as you're an electrical engineer, no?

I knew that was coming!

Couldn't they label it "almost FULL"? Should be technically and legally OK? ;D

How is that different from “partially discharged”?