Behind The Shot interviews Jeff Cable, to talk about using the EOS R3 in the real world

Feb 6, 2019
52
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Austin, Tx
prodorshak.com
Photo Mechanic is THE culling and ingesting tool. It is so fast it is ridiculous. You can scan through images nearly as fast as you take them, certainly multiple a second. When you cull high numbers of burst shots you know the compositions and players or moments you are looking for so 80% don't even get a look in for fast delivery. The last 20% can be scanned through for peak action very quickly. EXIF is entered in batches with minimal changes to players names etc. Edits are again basically batch corrections for exposure or lightening shadows and a gentle crop for straightening horizons.

I can turn around 20 images from a 3,000 shot event in a hour (not the 14 minutes Jeff can but thats why he is successful and I am here) using Lightroom. I can also spend two days processing a single 'hero' shot for a discerning client.
Awesome, I think me having zero exp in Photo Mechanic makes me appreciate your (and Jeff's) skills more! :p
 
Nov 26, 2020
3
3
This is very educational, and I appreciate the insight from a legitimate and credible professional working photographer. If there's anyone interested in this camera, or Canon in general when it comes to photography, I highly recommend it. I didn't think I'd watch more than 5 minutes but I sat through the whole thing because it actually elevated my sports photography.

It's a shame that all people care about is listening to YouTubers that review cameras and have shit for photography.
 

koenkooi

EOS 5D Mark IV
CR Pro
Feb 25, 2015
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Is there a DR penalty for using EFCS? I have been trying to find the answer to that but I guess I have not done a good job searching lol. I like the added speed of EFCS on my R5 but need the DR for shooting stormy skies that have some very bright areas. I see the graph on Photon to Photos, but does R5 (ES) mean electronic shutter or EFCS?
EFCS itself doesn't have a DR penalty, but it does unlock higher FPS modes on the R5 which to come with a DR penalty regardless of shuttermode, you'll go from 14-bit to 13-bit captures when doing more than 8fps.

ES means fully electronic shutter, not EFCS.
 
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SteveC

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Sep 3, 2019
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Underwater shooting is definitely a niche segment but I don't think that I am the only one who would like the option to remap the Rate button for other use cases.
Believe me, you aren't the only one.

I find the button utterly useless, and would love to be able to use it for something else, but it's not only the most useless button on the entire camera it's the ONE button that cannot be changed to anything else.
 
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David - Sydney

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Dec 7, 2014
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Believe me, you aren't the only one.

I find the button utterly useless, and would love to be able to use it for something else, but it's not only the most useless button on the entire camera it's the ONE button that cannot be changed to anything else.
I did provide Canon feedback via the support channel for the Rate re-map among other potential firmware improvements. Hopefully you have done the same :)
Maybe all CR readers could provide a solid/coordinated source of feedback this way.
 

LSXPhotog

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Believe me, you aren't the only one.

I find the button utterly useless, and would love to be able to use it for something else, but it's not only the most useless button on the entire camera it's the ONE button that cannot be changed to anything else.
Please see my above post and maybe give the rate button a shot. It can dramatically change the way you edit and deliver images.
 
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RayValdez360

Soon to be the greatest.
Jun 6, 2012
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Is there a DR penalty for using EFCS? I have been trying to find the answer to that but I guess I have not done a good job searching lol. I like the added speed of EFCS on my R5 but need the DR for shooting stormy skies that have some very bright areas. I see the graph on Photon to Photos, but does R5 (ES) mean electronic shutter or EFCS?
not that I know of. I just know the bokeh at high shutters like 1000 and up look worse.
 
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john1970

EOS R5
CR Pro
Dec 27, 2015
449
553
Northeastern US
I am curious on why there is a difference in the dynamic range between electronic shutter and physical shutter. Can someone explain why the electronic shutter in the R5 has lower dynamic range below ISO 800? Just curious and want to understand.
 

Kit.

EOS 5D Mark IV
Apr 25, 2011
2,208
1,524
I am curious on why there is a difference in the dynamic range between electronic shutter and physical shutter. Can someone explain why the electronic shutter in the R5 has lower dynamic range below ISO 800? Just curious and want to understand.
The ADCs the photo sensors use are "ramp-compare" type. Which means that in order to evaluate one 13-bit pixel the ADC needs to pass through 2¹³ = 8192 cycles. For a 14-bit pixel, the number of cycles (and thus the time) per pixel doubles.

For the electronic shutter, the rolling shutter effect is determined by the speed of pixel processing (accessing, analog-to-digital conversion, digital throughput). If analog-to-digital conversion is the bottleneck, it is possible to increase its speed by a factor of two or four by dropping one or two bits of its resolution (by doubling or quadrupling the magnitude of the ramp-up step of the ADC).

For the fully mechanical shutter and the EFCS, the rolling shutter effect is determined by the speed of the mechnical shutter, and then the sensor readout could be continued when the sensor is covered by the mechanical shutter. However, you still need to read the whole sensor before you can start a new exposure. So, to increase your frame rate with EFCS, you may also want to decrease the bitness of your ADC.

For the "natural" (limited by the photon physics) dynamic range of a sensor with Bayer pattern and a pixel pitch of R5 at ISO 800 and above, 12 bits of the value representation are enough, and you don't need an ADC with a higher bitness. Lower ISOs mean potentially more photons per pixel cell and more bits to be useful for recording the full DR.
 
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john1970

EOS R5
CR Pro
Dec 27, 2015
449
553
Northeastern US
The ADCs the photo sensors use are "ramp-compare" type. Which means that in order to evaluate one 13-bit pixel the ADC needs to pass through 2¹³ = 8192 cycles. For a 14-bit pixel, the number of cycles (and thus the time) per pixel doubles.

For the electronic shutter, the rolling shutter effect is determined by the speed of pixel processing (accessing, analog-to-digital conversion, digital throughput). If analog-to-digital conversion is the bottleneck, it is possible to increase its speed by a factor of two or four by dropping one or two bits of its resolution (by doubling or quadrupling the magnitude of the ramp-up step of the ADC).

For the fully mechanical shutter and the EFCS, the rolling shutter effect is determined by the speed of the mechnical shutter, and then the sensor readout could be continued when the sensor is covered by the mechanical shutter. However, you still need to read the whole sensor before you can start a new exposure. So, to increase your frame rate with EFCS, you may also want to decrease the bitness of your ADC.

For the "natural" (limited by the photon physics) dynamic range of a sensor with Bayer pattern and a pixel pitch of R5 at ISO 800 and above, 12 bits of the value representation are enough, and you don't need an ADC with a higher bitness. Lower ISOs mean potentially more photons per pixel cell and more bits to be useful for recording the full DR.
Thank you for the detailed explanation. If I understand correctly, having a stacked sensor with a faster readout might improve the dynamic range in electronic mode? Can has stated that the R3 shoots 14-bit files @ 30 fps with the electronic shutter so hoping that dynamic range is very good with the ES.
 

SHAMwow

EOS M6 Mark II
CR Pro
Sep 7, 2020
55
89
Is there a DR penalty for using EFCS? I have been trying to find the answer to that but I guess I have not done a good job searching lol. I like the added speed of EFCS on my R5 but need the DR for shooting stormy skies that have some very bright areas. I see the graph on Photon to Photos, but does R5 (ES) mean electronic shutter or EFCS?
I'm not sure about DR. I don't usually pay attention to that. The only confirmed penalty I've seen is a slight deviation in the bokeh at certain shutter speeds. Something I'd never notice without the videos or research I saw. I personally just shoot my R5 on mechanical. I mainly shoot sports, and I am happy with the 10-12 frames I can get. And I don't shoot slow shutter speeds so the reduced vibration from EFCS also isn't a factor.
 

SteveC

R5
CR Pro
Sep 3, 2019
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Please see my above post and maybe give the rate button a shot. It can dramatically change the way you edit and deliver images.
I can't possibly usefully "rate" images based on a 2 inch tall image on the back of the camera, especially not in daylight.

I do that process at home.

Button is useless to me. Utterly, completely useless.
 

Kit.

EOS 5D Mark IV
Apr 25, 2011
2,208
1,524
Thank you for the detailed explanation. If I understand correctly, having a stacked sensor with a faster readout might improve the dynamic range in electronic mode?
If you have a stacked sensor, you can put much more electronics onto it. In particular, you can increase the number of ADCs working in parallel, and then your bottleneck will no longer be the ADC.
 
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LSXPhotog

Automotive, Motorsports, Commerical, & Real Estate
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Apr 2, 2015
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I can't possibly usefully "rate" images based on a 2 inch tall image on the back of the camera, especially not in daylight.

I do that process at home.

Button is useless to me. Utterly, completely useless.
OK, so change your magnification button to zoom 1:1 on the AF point to check focus in the field. Benefit of an EVF is now you can keep your eye to the viewfinder on a sunny day when required. It's what most of us are doing and it's PROBABLY why there is a button called RATE on nearly all professional cameras and why it's one of the first things I look for on any new camera body I consider...because we're using it in the field to save time when we get them on the computer. If you're not willing to do any of this then best of luck to you in the future. Just trying to save you time and demonstrate another approach to culling images that was taught to me by one of the greatest photographers I know.
 

SteveC

R5
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Sep 3, 2019
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OK, so change your magnification button to zoom 1:1 on the AF point to check focus in the field. Benefit of an EVF is now you can keep your eye to the viewfinder on a sunny day when required. It's what most of us are doing and it's PROBABLY why there is a button called RATE on nearly all professional cameras and why it's one of the first things I look for on any new camera body I consider...because we're using it in the field to save time when we get them on the computer. If you're not willing to do any of this then best of luck to you in the future. Just trying to save you time and demonstrate another approach to culling images that was taught to me by one of the greatest photographers I know.
If I can interrupt photographing things long enough to do all that, then instead of rating the bad pictures, I'll simply delete them.

But I'd rather spend that time AFTER the job when it doesn't cut into my time on site.

But realistically, even if some people find it useful and others find it a waste of time...the REAL issue is why Canon won't let you reassign the button.

If I could do that, I wouldn't give a damn about the rate function. Instead I end up resenting it because it uses up what could otherwise, to me, be a valuable button. The fact that YOU and unspecified pros find it useful doesn't change the fact that the button is unassignable for those who do not.
 
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Cyborx

EOS 90D
Feb 3, 2019
150
147
“Jeff Cable was one of the photographers using the R3 during the olympics”

This means Jeff Cable is a Canon Ambassador.

That means Jeff Cable is being paid (in money or cams) to tell the world Canon is great!

That means you are watching a commercial.

The R3 is 24 mpix guys.. Nikon is doing 45mpix, Sony is doing 50mpix. What is Canon doing?? It’s almost 2022. 24 mpix, seriously? Sure, incredible AF. But 24 mpix?

I am waiting so long for a Canon mirrorless pro camera, but I’m gonna skip this one.. keeping my fingers crossed for Canon to make an epic R1 with a reasonable pricetag. If not, I’m off to Sony too…
 

snapshot

5d2,5d4,r5
CR Pro
Jul 24, 2020
59
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“Jeff Cable was one of the photographers using the R3 during the olympics”

This means Jeff Cable is a Canon Ambassador.

That means Jeff Cable is being paid (in money or cams) to tell the world Canon is great!

That means you are watching a commercial.

The R3 is 24 mpix guys.. Nikon is doing 45mpix, Sony is doing 50mpix. What is Canon doing?? It’s almost 2022. 24 mpix, seriously? Sure, incredible AF. But 24 mpix?

I am waiting so long for a Canon mirrorless pro camera, but I’m gonna skip this one.. keeping my fingers crossed for Canon to make an epic R1 with a reasonable pricetag. If not, I’m off to Sony too…
i gather from this you do not feel like the R3 will improve your results. i can only say the move from 5d4 to r5 has greatly improved my results, and the resolution really isnt the biggest piece of the puzzle. i wonder about the 'sensor splatter' that is what kept me out of the 1d series. i perhaps electronic shutter has reduced the moving parts to the point that there is no issue.
 

neuroanatomist

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Jul 21, 2010
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The R3 is 24 mpix guys.. Nikon is doing 45mpix, Sony is doing 50mpix. What is Canon doing?? It’s almost 2022. 24 mpix, seriously? Sure, incredible AF. But 24 mpix?
D9ED7731-6E9C-4AD3-B638-D7943A8C6D6D.jpeg
 

neuroanatomist

I post too Much on Here!!
CR Pro
Jul 21, 2010
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i wonder about the 'sensor splatter' that is what kept me out of the 1d series. i perhaps electronic shutter has reduced the moving parts to the point that there is no issue.
That was an issue with the 1D X only, although mine never had an issue. Canon issued a service notice (in 2013, I think) and fixed the problem for free.