BMD 4K, EOS C100 or 5D3

[paul13walnut5]

Making business case for new camera, currently using 7d / 600d for production video and eng for event video.

Very keen on c100 as it will work well with current lenses (or at least, predictably given transition from aps-c to s35)
but niggling doubts as to go for 5D3 and new lenses (would need a tascam dr-60d) or (if it can be supplied) the bmd 4k.

I don't need 4k yet, but our stage crews are buying a 4k projection and screens... 1080 looks great on their exsisting screens, but any camera I buy is going to be used in 3, 5 years time.

I threw the 5d in there as an option... I don't need stills on this camera... My gut tells me go dedicated video camera route, but is the BMD just too out there?

 

[luciolepri]

Why are you considering the 5D MK III? Since you already have EF-S lenses and you're ok with S35 and in-camera audio, why bother? Unless you're interested in speed and raw and weight and size are crucial...
The BMD is obviously a much better video camera than the C-100, not to mention the 5D, which is just a camera that can shoot videos.

 

[Nick Gombinsky]

If you're shooting ENG style, I wouldn't recommend the BMD. It is not a camera for quick shooting, its more of a studio/commercial camera. You need some time to set it up (a few seconds, but its a very uncomfortable camera to work with when you need to change settings on the fly), there aren't any buttons on the damn thing! I'd advise getting maybe a FS700, FS100, or the equivalent Canons (C300/C100), the BMD's cameras are different beasts for different jobs.

 

[Nishi Drew]

5D if you really want the RAW and low light capability, but I bet you won't shoot RAW nearly enough to justify it's use even in the long run. If you're work requires heavy post production editing, grading and the flexibility to adjust exposure and maintain the highlights/shadows better then maybe. But for event coverage and what not you'd be out of space in no time unless you've got infinite to spare for those super fast and massive CF cards.
Also you won't be taking stills and you don't have the lenses, so the answer should be pretty clear.
The BMD 4K is certainly interesting for the price especially, if you're using rigs and tripods a lot, then with you're available lenses it should work very well with the codecs and compression options.
But still a dedicated video camera in the C100 or FS range are better for all around, you'll need those built in NDs and controls, and their form factors are just built for the job.
4K, if you're convinced you need it, it'd be worth it with the 4K projectors and lot but if 1080P really looks fine then I would go for a versatile system that prioritizes on image quality rather than just resolution.
Though personally I would like the 5D3 as I work with photos a lot and have the lenses, not the fast cards yet though

 

[paul13walnut5]

Cheers folks, I don't need RAW, been getting by fine without it, and am for the time being on a 32bit editing app, maybe when my suite gets upgraded..

Don't really do much grading at all, had dabbled with color and have a couple of presets I like, but I tend to shoot a greyscale card, 3 wheel colour correct off of that and then go the cowards route of magic bullet mojo and looks, again, a new suite will probably enable a new approach.

The 5D3 was flung in as a wild card, work will be buying new lenses to go with any new camera, it may be a case of mirroring what I've been using from my personal kit, or augmenting it, and so plugging some gaps, or getting fast primes and using my leneses when required.

The 5D3 was the cheaper option, but I think the advice is good, it's for video, get a video camera. Which points me back to the c100. A good point about the external controls. I hate transistor switches and menus on a camcorder. The form of the BMD isn't that big a deal, it will be on a rig (fig or sm-1) or tripod, or video monopod or stabiliser or clamp.

Just thinking 1080i&p is great for now, but what will I want in 5 years from a camera. Probably a new camera, but my work doesn't work that way.

Not keen on the Sony's at this end. Not a fan of NEX or M43 mounts. Don't think we are going to hear of them in a couple of years time. Can't afford PL, so EF seems the way to go for range & availability.

Thanks for thoughts so far.

A question specifically to BMD users. Do the BMD grips help?

A question specifically to C100 users. How is the rolling shutter? Improved any over DSLRs?

I'm going to try and get hands on, but it's a question of what I can find here in Scotland. It's not my money I'm spending, although it'll be me using it, so I have to please the company and please myself. Wouldn't buy without hands on.

Thanks again for the postive advice so far.

 

[luciolepri]

A question specifically to BMD users. Do the BMD grips help?

Which ones?

A question specifically to C100 users. How is the rolling shutter? Improved any over DSLRs?

Yes, it's improved. There are plenty of video comparison between MKIII and C-100 on YouTube and Vimeo, you can check by yourself. Obviously, the only way to get rid of the rolling shutter is to use a global shutter...

BTW, consider that if you'rr using your EF-S lenses on a S35 sensor you're going to use the extreme corners of the lenses, which were not supposed to be used and will probably look quite awful. What's more, if you're willing to buy a 6000 $ video camera, I guess you wanna use fast, professional EF lenses, so you'll probably have to buy new lenses anyway.

As far as speed is concerned, I don't find the C-100 to be so much faster than the BMD, once you get used to the menus... but, yes, "there aren't any buttons on the damn thing!"

 

[paul13walnut5]

A friend described it as being like an alarm clock.

Had hands on with c300, 11-16 lens is good on it. No money for anthing esoteric. L 2.8 zooms I'm afraid.

 

[Axilrod]

Paulie that's a tough choice, but I'd go with the BMD Production cam. It's the newest one, has the best specs, and it's the most future proof of the bunch. It has compressed RAW (which some consider a disadvantage, but I welcome it) and global shutter (which is a big advantage). They haven't released any footage of course, but I think it's worth

If you're doing more run and gun shooting the C100 may be a good option, but it's way more expensive than the others and the image quality is somewhat underwhelming.

The 5D3 is a great camera of course, and if you get one refurb for $2300 it's not a bad deal. It's nice to have the RAW capability, but after playing with that for a few weeks the workflow is just a bit too cumbersome. I'm sure that will change over time, but as of right now I don't know how useful it is in terms of efficiency.

I have the BMPC preordered and I'm looking forward to playing with it. I'd go with that one for sure, it's specs are comparable to the $17k Sony F5 (minus the high FPS).

 

[cookinghusband]

A friend described it as being like an alarm clock.

Had hands on with c300, 11-16 lens is good on it. No money for anthing esoteric. L 2.8 zooms I'm afraid.

I tried the C100( many friend have them) is more handy and flexible than the C300. If you are doing video most of the time no need to consider 5D at all, it is a photo camera with manual video function and mono audio. Whereas C100 have flip screen, peek, zebra, S35 etc. good set of connectors. Also seem like the price of C100 is going down.
Since you are using 600D may be you can use 70D, performance is promising. especially if you are using EF-S lens.

As for BM4K I think the post production hardware requirement is a bit tough, BM4k may ok because it uses a relative common codec, I have great problem with the 1DC 4K files

 

[paul13walnut5]

Thanks all, plenty to think about, keep it coming.

 

[that1guyy]

Seems you need speed for shooting events. In that case I recommend the C100. Good image quality and great form factor. You can shoot log and the files are very manageable. I think you'll be happy.
If you were shooting both stills and video, the 5D 3 is the best option on the market hands down but this doesn't apply to you. The BMD 4k is fantastic but more suitable for narrative work where 4k is a better option for the larger screen and doing lots of post production where the extra latitude will come in handy.
So in conclusion go with the C100.

Edit: With the BMD you need accessories like SSDs, grips which add to the cost. The C100 is ready to go.

 

[Roger Jones]

BMD is not shipping yet. If I had to invest in a camera system that I'd be stuck with for 3-5 years I'd get something that is already proven in the field. BMD 4k is largely unknown at this point. Downside of the C100 is AVCHD codec only. If you are going that route and ATOMOS recorder that would allow you to record in ProRes would give you better quality and be easier to edit. C100 would also require a monitor such as a marshall or smallHD unless you can get by with the rather small built in one.

 

[JasonATL]

Paul,

I'll throw two wrinkles in the mix:

1. BMCC (Cinema Camera, not 4K) Many of my comments about the BMCC apply to the 4K.
2. Sony FS100 or FS700

I have the BMCC and just used it to shoot a friend's wedding. It wasn't terrible to use for an event such as that. I do wish I had had a bit faster camera in terms of an available higher ISO. ISO 800 was fine, but the dimly lit church left me too scared to use my 2.8 zooms. I shot at 2.0 and had enough just enough light (a little less even than I would have liked). Keep in mind that the 4k is a full stop slower. If your events are always well it, then the 4k with a stable of zooms should work well.

The BMCC can shoot 2.5k, but I've found its DNxHD/ProRes mode @1080p to be excellent for most of my needs. Plenty of detail and a very nice robust, flat (FILM mode log gamma) image that is easy to color correct (even if the white balance is off). The compressed 4:2:2 10-bit codec is so good in this camera that I could see anyone buying this camera without ever intending to use raw. The same is likely to hold for the 4k, but it is, again, 1 stop slower and reputed to have 1 stop less dynamic range. Shooting directly onto an SSD is VERY nice! Having a 480 GB SSD drive and shooting for hours and then having access immediately on a PC is very convenient.

Form factor is just okay. It won't be as nice as your 7D. The Blackmagic cams can be handheld if you have a lens with IS (and steady, strong hands!). Even on a rig, it is heavy unless you are used to really heavy rigs.

The cropped sensor is a bit of a downside that you wouldn't have with the 4k. The 5D gives you the opposite problem, though with too shallow a DoF for some circumstances, in my opinion.

With the adapters available for the FS100 and FS700, I'm curious as to why they aren't on your list. If because of form factor, I understand, I guess. I don't have any experience with either camera, but seriously considered them over getting the BMCC. Form factor kept me away from them.

 

[paul13walnut5]

Thanks again folks, just not feeling the love for the Sony's. I may be wrong, but I was under the impression they were interlaced only, I just don't know the sony nex system, I'm used to using canon and know it works for me.

 

[mkabi]

Just my 2 cents...

I don't know if anyone mentioned the ridiculous crop sensor on the Black Magic. Its 2.5 the magnification, unlike the APS-C sensor that you are currently using that has 1.6.

Think of it this way, you probably have a nifty-fifty and it looks great on your APS-C, because it acts as an 80mm on your crop sensor. But a 50mm looks like a 125mm on a BlackMagic camera. You can't go that wide either. 10mm = 25mm.

The other thing you have to be aware of... is the system you will be working with....
Upgrading your camera to output 4K, means your computer system that you do postproduction with will have to handle 4K material.

 

[paul13walnut5]

Hi Mkabi,

The BMD 4K actually has an s35 sensor. So no massive difference between that in terms of field of view from my current bodies.

I wouldn't be shooting 4K straight away, thinking 2 or 3 years down the line when I would almost certainly be editing on a faster machine with more RAM / RAID etc.

 

[syder]

Good question - and a choice similar to one I'm about to be faced with... I've just started work at a new university who need to upgrade their production facilities and want me to start writing a quote for what I want them to buy in...

5Dm3 I'd only consider if you want something to do stills as well as video

C100 seems like an excellent all rounder - and quality-wise with an external recorder the results look fairly close to a C300 (which a lot of people in broadcast I know use and love). Wont over/undercrank if you think you'll need that (FS700 might be worth a look in that case).

Speaking of which - there are E to EF mount adaptors for the FS100/700. Although unless you're sold on needing the crazy cool super slow motion or the (unlikely to be cheap I dont think its out yet) 4k and RAW upgrade the C100 looks a better package to me.

BMC4k is hypothetically amazing... But then the BMC original camera was touted by many to blow anything under 10k away (especially on techy forums), And it sort of does if you're doing short fiction work under controlled lighting and can look past the quirks (one might say shortcomings) of the camera. But for event/documentary uses it's issues outweigh it's advantes imo.

Now in general I'm of the opinion that 2nd generation tech tends to iron out a lot of the issues that groundbreaking tech often comes burdened with - and by losing the 2x crop, and the resource hungry uncompressed RAW the BMC 4k looks like it's taking steps in the right direction. But losing DNxHD support is something that makes it less attractive (they could have kept a DNxHD 1080 mode for Avid/Windows users). However, for anything outside of controlled conditions I'd still rather have a C100 for its low light capabilities, ND filters, XLR inputs etc.

Planning for 5 years time is pretty hard - if you were writing this in 2008 what would your options have been? 5dM2 (with its almost comical firmware limitations on launch) wasn't out by then... So Z1, Ex1, Panny HVX201, Canon XF100... All of which are solid camcorders, but in terms of aesthetic possibilities, low light capabilities, lens choice etc look very limiting compared to what's around now. At least the move to modular systems means that in 3-5 years you'll still have your lens investment which will be useful.

As an aside on the topic of grading, if you've got enough RAM and GPU power to run it I'd recommend having a look at the lite version of Davinci Resolve. Its free, and extremely powerful.

 

[paul13walnut5]

will check out resolve.

Think my OS might be the limiting factor (10.6.8)
Do you export XML or do you have to output and then import? Don't do a lot of grading, and generally use magic bullet or looks plug ins.

2008?.. What would I have been looking at then? We had a z1 but still mainly used our DSR-570, would probably have been something 2/3rds, and something HD... Maybe a 1/2" EX1 at a push.

Our DSR-570 has been revived a couple of time recently, but think the next round of shocks could be terminal.
I also know the tech moves fast, but we have to jump on at some point and hope we can hang on for long enough. The battery life, audio connects and form of the BMD 4K concern me. If it were my cash I'd have got a c100 by now.

Thanks again for the insightful reply.

 

[syder]

XML out (I'm guessing from your previous post about a 32bit NLE that means you're using FCP 7) should work fine - although you can also export and detect scene changes.

Out of interest, if you are with FCP7 have you spent much time working with Color - it's actually really quite good (when it was Final Touch before Apple bought it it retailed for some obscene amount). Resolve is more powerful (its nodal system is better for really complex grades then the room based Color system), but the workflow from FCP7>Colour is so quick and easy (and less resource demanding to run) that it might be worth a look first.

 

[paul13walnut5]

Yep, I've played with color and have a couple of presets I like, the bouncing between apps is a godsend, even for soundtrack. May FCS3 rest in peace.