Canon Announces the Cinema EOS C100 Mark II

leGreve

Full time photographer and film maker omnifilm.dk
Nov 6, 2010
308
0
Denmark
vimeo.com
This crappy update is a fine example of what happens when you try to cover too many bases.... They can't do this because that will devalue that, and they can't not do this because then that will be better.

Canon has become a joke company in so many ways. I think it stems from old fashioned management and business model. Cut off all the lose weight in the senior management and replace them with people who actually wants Canon to make a difference. (though to be honest wouldn't know who that somebody would be)

Then downsize the product catalogue by 50% and do proper stuff instead of these camera lines that may differ in appearance but in science are more or less Camera A 1.1 A 1.2 A 1.3 and so on.

Get 1-2 high end cameras
Get 1-2 semi pro cameras
Get 2-3 Consumer cameras

Cancel the rest. Then they would be able to offer something that resembles a real update rather than this bullshit.

Hello Sony, how are you doing this fine morning?
 

skoobey

EOS 90D
Jun 12, 2013
120
0
I would keep the same team, same production lines, same distribution but revise marketing and product placement.

They have little to no innovation products, and it's 3rd generation now of the same old product lines, THAT'S OVER A DECADE.

What they are doing is relying on returning customer base. And that's good, but EVERY generation has to carry at least one new innovation that attract's customers away from the competition.

5dII was the last camera that did it with video on a full frame, but it's been 7 years now...

VIDEO INNOVATION - higher margins, take the market away from RED

SHARING - WIFi, wireless iOS and Andriod inegration with cameras, file transferst etc, THEY NEED IT NOW

FASHIONABLE PRODUCTS - COLOR COLOR COLOR, they turned out a great white SLR, but ARE NOT SELLING IT RIGHT!!! You sell it as a Dolce Gabbana camera and shoot the spring campaign on it, and then make fabulous bags and sell it in fashion retail stores. It's not hard! General population doesn't care to go to B&H to see a white camera, it needs to be where the fashion is!

Canon is stagnating, and they need to move on!
 

leGreve

Full time photographer and film maker omnifilm.dk
Nov 6, 2010
308
0
Denmark
vimeo.com
skoobey said:
I would keep the same team, same production lines, same distribution but revise marketing and product placement.

They have little to no innovation products, and it's 3rd generation now of the same old product lines, THAT'S OVER A DECADE.

What they are doing is relying on returning customer base. And that's good, but EVERY generation has to carry at least one new innovation that attract's customers away from the competition.

5dII was the last camera that did it with video on a full frame, but it's been 7 years now...

VIDEO INNOVATION - higher margins, take the market away from RED

SHARING - WIFi, wireless iOS and Andriod inegration with cameras, file transferst etc, THEY NEED IT NOW

FASHIONABLE PRODUCTS - COLOR COLOR COLOR, they turned out a great white SLR, but ARE NOT SELLING IT RIGHT!!! You sell it as a Dolce Gabbana camera and shoot the spring campaign on it, and then make fabulous bags and sell it in fashion retail stores. It's not hard! General population doesn't care to go to B&H to see a white camera, it needs to be where the fashion is!

Canon is stagnating, and they need to move on!

While RED is pretty amazing and very popular i mainstream productions, I think the real culprit is the Sony F series cameras. Heck even the A7s is better than the C100.
As far as customer return.... with the invention of adapters that do a fine job, you don't need a Canon camera for your Canon lenses. Just adapt them to RED or Sony or whatever and enjoy them.
I'm sticking with my 5D for now, but the next camera won't be a Canon, I can tell you that.
Lenses last a long time if you take care of them, so no return profit there either.
 

crazyrunner33

EOS RP
Nov 4, 2011
302
121
4K and UHD is not only about the resolution, it's about the color! We've been using Rec. 709 for almost 25 years, but UHD will bring Rec. 2020 which has a much wider color gamut and supports up to 12 bit instead of 8 bit. While not everybody will see the improved sharpness from UHD, we will definitely see the large increase in the color gamut and the jump from 8 bit to 10 and 12 bit. This is why professionals want to buy UHD and 4K cameras, we do not want to spend thousands on a new camera that's already behind the curve.
 

Lee Jay

EOS 7D Mark II
Sep 22, 2011
2,206
143
scyrene said:
Lee Jay said:
ajfotofilmagem said:
I also see no reason to record 4K today.

So I can stabilize in post, crop, downsample, and still have 1080p left.

This is a legitimate response, but this camera is aimed at people using professional-style rigs, no? So stabilisation isn't really an issue.

For fast objects, it always is, even with a fluid head, optical IS, and electronic stabilization.
 

sanj

EOS R5
Jan 22, 2012
3,698
568
peederj said:
Well if they do that it's not going to be targeted at video as such, it will be slanted as the ultimate tool for the dreaded "spray & pray" stills shooter. So if they forget mechanical shutter and just go with an electronic shutter, they can get the frame rate up to 30fps and stream frames out to the faster storage cards available in that era. This will be "video" but it will likely have poor DR, poor low-light, poor compression, and/or poor rolling shutter performance, as they are having to read from nearly all of a 36 megapixel sensor continuously.

But fair enough some people may actually enjoy trying to work with 8K video files for motion. I don't think that will be practical quite as soon as 2016 but by the end of the decade sure.

I am generally against continuous drive for stills shooting outside of fast action shots. It is not photography to me. Photography is about recognizing the right time to release the shutter by looking through the viewfinder. Spray & pray detaches you from the moment (and on optical VFs blocks your view of the subject). I will not be shooting 8K video for stills and I doubt I would for motion. The GH4 has barely 1080p resolution in its 4K mode as it is, their rendition of "consumer 8K" will probably have less than 2000lph.

pbr9 said:

Don't think so. Think photography is about telling a story or showcasing beauty. Does not matter how.
 

Lee Jay

EOS 7D Mark II
Sep 22, 2011
2,206
143
skoobey said:
SHARING - WIFi, wireless iOS and Andriod inegration with cameras, file transferst etc, THEY NEED IT NOW

FASHIONABLE PRODUCTS - COLOR COLOR COLOR, they turned out a great white SLR, but ARE NOT SELLING IT RIGHT!!! You sell it as a Dolce Gabbana camera and shoot the spring campaign on it, and then make fabulous bags and sell it in fashion retail stores. It's not hard! General population doesn't care to go to B&H to see a white camera, it needs to be where the fashion is!

These are what are important to you? That's pretty sad.
 

Cgdillan

HDSLR Cinematographer/Photograper
Mar 20, 2012
288
0
1992-06-25
www.StockhamMedia.com
Lee Jay said:
skoobey said:
SHARING - WIFi, wireless iOS and Andriod inegration with cameras, file transferst etc, THEY NEED IT NOW

FASHIONABLE PRODUCTS - COLOR COLOR COLOR, they turned out a great white SLR, but ARE NOT SELLING IT RIGHT!!! You sell it as a Dolce Gabbana camera and shoot the spring campaign on it, and then make fabulous bags and sell it in fashion retail stores. It's not hard! General population doesn't care to go to B&H to see a white camera, it needs to be where the fashion is!

These are what are important to you? That's pretty sad.

I agree. I would be upset if Canon decided to waste any money on this part. I think their products look fine and really don't see the NEED for wifi. I would never want to do file transfers over wifi anyway
 

transpo1

EOS RP
Jan 12, 2011
756
104
crazyrunner33 said:
4K and UHD is not only about the resolution, it's about the color! We've been using Rec. 709 for almost 25 years, but UHD will bring Rec. 2020 which has a much wider color gamut and supports up to 12 bit instead of 8 bit. While not everybody will see the improved sharpness from UHD, we will definitely see the large increase in the color gamut and the jump from 8 bit to 10 and 12 bit. This is why professionals want to buy UHD and 4K cameras, we do not want to spend thousands on a new camera that's already behind the curve.

Great point. Customers, especially professionals, want to feel they're getting the latest and greatest when they buy a camera and getting a stellar value. Those feelings can translate into confidence about the products. And Canon is making it increasingly difficult to feel that way when they release something.
 

Etienne

EOS R
Sep 19, 2010
1,464
275
Ottawa Ontario
scyrene said:
Lee Jay said:
ajfotofilmagem said:
I also see no reason to record 4K today.

So I can stabilize in post, crop, downsample, and still have 1080p left.

This is a legitimate response, but this camera is aimed at people using professional-style rigs, no? So stabilisation isn't really an issue.
Sure it's not an issue ... If you are that one professional on earth who gets everything perfect the first time, even in fast moving ENG or doco environments. For the rest of us not-yet-perfect videographers ... every bit of tech helps
 

Tugela

EOS R
Feb 12, 2014
873
23
gsealy said:
peederj said:
The C100mk1 has the third generation chip in it, the C100mk2 has the fourth generation chip. So the new firmware won't work on the old camera. There may be improvements in the IQ enabled by the new chip beyond the 60p, we'll have to see.

I would not be so quick to say "So the new firmware won't work on the old camera". The new chip might support the same instruction set as the previous one, and have the same registers and so on. It's just that it has faster and newer components. Can a person usually upgrade from Windows 7 to Windows 8 without purchasing a new processor? Yes.

In these cameras the encoding is done in hardware, so yes, the new firmware most definitely will not work with the old camera since the DV3 chip encoder maxes at 1080p30 (IIRC, it actually does 1080i60, and that is reconstituted as 1080p30). The DV4 processor can encode in true 1080p60, at up to 28 mbps AVCHD and 35 mbps MP4 (30p mode footage max at 24 mbps).

If you want 1080p60 you will have to buy a new camera, firmware will not help you with the current design.
 

scyrene

EOS R6
Dec 4, 2013
2,825
972
UK
www.flickr.com
Lee Jay said:
scyrene said:
Lee Jay said:
ajfotofilmagem said:
I also see no reason to record 4K today.

So I can stabilize in post, crop, downsample, and still have 1080p left.

This is a legitimate response, but this camera is aimed at people using professional-style rigs, no? So stabilisation isn't really an issue.

For fast objects, it always is, even with a fluid head, optical IS, and electronic stabilization.

So, genuine question: how did people manage until 4k started coming out a year or two ago? I don't recall footage looking really wobbly.
 

scyrene

EOS R6
Dec 4, 2013
2,825
972
UK
www.flickr.com
Etienne said:
scyrene said:
Lee Jay said:
ajfotofilmagem said:
I also see no reason to record 4K today.

So I can stabilize in post, crop, downsample, and still have 1080p left.

This is a legitimate response, but this camera is aimed at people using professional-style rigs, no? So stabilisation isn't really an issue.
Sure it's not an issue ... If you are that one professional on earth who gets everything perfect the first time, even in fast moving ENG or doco environments. For the rest of us not-yet-perfect videographers ... every bit of tech helps

Again, that's a legitimate point. But people saying it's a killer issue... I mean, at some point, you're always going to have to make up for equipment limitations with better technique. We all want ever better technology, but I don't understand the rancour towards specific targets, e.g. non-4k cameras.
 

transpo1

EOS RP
Jan 12, 2011
756
104
scyrene said:
Etienne said:
scyrene said:
Lee Jay said:
ajfotofilmagem said:
I also see no reason to record 4K today.

So I can stabilize in post, crop, downsample, and still have 1080p left.

This is a legitimate response, but this camera is aimed at people using professional-style rigs, no? So stabilisation isn't really an issue.
Sure it's not an issue ... If you are that one professional on earth who gets everything perfect the first time, even in fast moving ENG or doco environments. For the rest of us not-yet-perfect videographers ... every bit of tech helps

Again, that's a legitimate point. But people saying it's a killer issue... I mean, at some point, you're always going to have to make up for equipment limitations with better technique. We all want ever better technology, but I don't understand the rancour towards specific targets, e.g. non-4k cameras.

Most of the DPs I know are now being asked by their clients to shoot 4K specifically for reframing ability in post. So, 4K is becoming a highly requested feature and a necessary one to compete, not to mention the other benefits it has for stabilization and future-proofing. So Canon is really hobbling their camera by not including it.

I think the rancor you mention is actually a misnomer for love- many of the people on this forum love Canon products and want to buy them, but are disillusioned by the lack of competitive specs. I love Canon stuff, but I'm not going to buy another camera body from them for video until it's competitive with the other, more highly specced bodies out there.

So, there it is: rancor = love for Canon :)
 

Niki

EOS 90D
May 30, 2013
136
0
transpo1 said:
scyrene said:
Etienne said:
scyrene said:
Lee Jay said:
ajfotofilmagem said:
I also see no reason to record 4K today.

So I can stabilize in post, crop, downsample, and still have 1080p left.

This is a legitimate response, but this camera is aimed at people using professional-style rigs, no? So stabilisation isn't really an issue.
Sure it's not an issue ... If you are that one professional on earth who gets everything perfect the first time, even in fast moving ENG or doco environments. For the rest of us not-yet-perfect videographers ... every bit of tech helps

Again, that's a legitimate point. But people saying it's a killer issue... I mean, at some point, you're always going to have to make up for equipment limitations with better technique. We all want ever better technology, but I don't understand the rancour towards specific targets, e.g. non-4k cameras.

Most of the DPs I know are now being asked by their clients to shoot 4K specifically for reframing ability in post. So, 4K is becoming a highly requested feature and a necessary one to compete, not to mention the other benefits it has for stabilization and future-proofing. So Canon is really hobbling their camera by not including it.

I think the rancor you mention is actually a misnomer for love- many of the people on this forum love Canon products and want to buy them, but are disillusioned by the lack of competitive specs. I love Canon stuff, but I'm not going to buy another camera body from them for video until it's competitive with the other, more highly specced bodies out there.

So, there it is: rancor = love for Canon :)

4k ??? don't know …
most major motion pictures are shooting on alexas…and film cameras…either scanning to 2k…or 2.5k…so if a client wanting to make a web commercial wants 4k ….???
 

transpo1

EOS RP
Jan 12, 2011
756
104
Niki said:
transpo1 said:
scyrene said:
Etienne said:
scyrene said:
Lee Jay said:
ajfotofilmagem said:
I also see no reason to record 4K today.

So I can stabilize in post, crop, downsample, and still have 1080p left.

This is a legitimate response, but this camera is aimed at people using professional-style rigs, no? So stabilisation isn't really an issue.
Sure it's not an issue ... If you are that one professional on earth who gets everything perfect the first time, even in fast moving ENG or doco environments. For the rest of us not-yet-perfect videographers ... every bit of tech helps

Again, that's a legitimate point. But people saying it's a killer issue... I mean, at some point, you're always going to have to make up for equipment limitations with better technique. We all want ever better technology, but I don't understand the rancour towards specific targets, e.g. non-4k cameras.

Most of the DPs I know are now being asked by their clients to shoot 4K specifically for reframing ability in post. So, 4K is becoming a highly requested feature and a necessary one to compete, not to mention the other benefits it has for stabilization and future-proofing. So Canon is really hobbling their camera by not including it.

I think the rancor you mention is actually a misnomer for love- many of the people on this forum love Canon products and want to buy them, but are disillusioned by the lack of competitive specs. I love Canon stuff, but I'm not going to buy another camera body from them for video until it's competitive with the other, more highly specced bodies out there.

So, there it is: rancor = love for Canon :)

4k ??? don't know …
most major motion pictures are shooting on alexas…and film cameras…either scanning to 2k…or 2.5k…so if a client wanting to make a web commercial wants 4k ….???

Ahh, yes, very true. But most major motion pictures have the budget for increased time to shoot multiple angles and don't need to save time and $$ by shooting 4K for reframing. They also have greater post-production budgets for scanning, etc.

Many doc-style TV shows do need that $$ savings and speed, however.
 
Oct 26, 2014
1
0
Re: dual pixel AF without focus touch screen is a lukewarm solution-D70 has both


Dual pixel AF is new and nice. But … the biggest issue of this innovative feature is the limitation of the AF area to just a small square in the middle of the frame. Unfortunately you can’t move this focus square to another position of the frame. Consequently a touch screen with touch focus is a must here.
Without touch screen it’s not possible to achieve a simple focus transition (focus pull) for a static off-center subject. It’s a lukewarm solution only, spoiling the potential of the dual pixel AF.
Why does the C100 II not have something which the 70D already has? It’s unbelievable that the new expensive C100 II lacks a feature which the 80% cheaper DSLR has since one year.
The bad thing is, it’s not at all the question whether the present hardware is ready for the touchscreen. (see 70D) But grand father Canon knows what we really need.
“Eat what we serve you, because only I know what is benficial for your health and wealth”.
 

mkabi

EOS RP
Mar 21, 2013
509
2
41
transpo1 said:
Ahh, yes, very true. But most major motion pictures have the budget for increased time to shoot multiple angles and don't need to save time and $$ by shooting 4K for reframing. They also have greater post-production budgets for scanning, etc.

Many doc-style TV shows do need that $$ savings and speed, however.

No matter what business you're in... you're trying to make the most for the least. Time is money too. If you have a 100 days to shoot, then thats all you have... I don't think the execs and producers will be happy if you shoot till 101 days, just to fit multiple angles. Similarly, if you have a chance to complete the job in 75 days instead of 100, that would save even more money. Its just more money in your pocket.

So, obviously, given the time, budget and scope... using a non-4K camera + multiple angles out weighed the cost of a 4K camera + single angle & a lot more post production work.

Here is what you have to remember. You can do 1 take with 4K, but how many times can you reframe that to be multiple angles? You still need to do another angle no? At least 2 more... in my opinion. Then there are reshoots, because someone made a mistake...

4 times the resolution means at least 4 times the space requirements, by all accounts... 4K and most RAW footages are space eaters.... plus you have to remember redundancy so you don't lose the huge files. Post-processing & rendering these files need a beast of a computer... all these need to be considered...
 

peederj

EOS RP
Mar 2, 2012
293
0
It's important to talk about distinguishable pixels rather than "4K." After the lens, the OLPF, the sensor, the RAW converter, the codec, and the necessary post, the number of pixels you can get out of a capture system is usually far less than the theoretical maximum imposed by the nominal pixel counts. Same with bit depth, sampling rate, etc. We need standardized chart/DR/RS/Noise etc. tests of every video mode of every camera but those are not to be found for reasons that continue to baffle me.

And for practical considerations, here's a nice hands-on with the FS7. Seems it's sort of at the "Mark I" level, needs firmware improvements, as does the Metabones Speedbooster to work with it. It also could use some hardware tweaks. It's a little early still for the FS7, and the Canons still have a few advantages as he mentions.

http://www.newsshooter.com/2014/11/01/sony-fs7-field-report-week-1-the-canon-c300-killer/
 
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