Canon Announces the Cinema EOS C100 Mark II
- Thread starter Canon Rumors Guy
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Lee Jay said:
That depends how many C500s Canon sells. I've done some professional video work but am not plugged in enough to know how many C500 units Canon moves relative to the competition.
My suspicion is that Canon would earn greater profits if it were to provide 4K at more aggressive price points. An expensive product such as the C500 isn't necessarily more profitable than a cheaper product. It might be more profitable per unit but C500 sales volume will never come anywhere near Canon's prosumer DSLR sales volume. For the strategy that your question suggests to make sense, Canon's C500 margins would have to be insane.
It all depends on margins and sales volumes. The potential markets for the next 5D and the new C100 are both much, much bigger than the potential market for the C500. Seems to me that Canon could maximize these potentially large prosumer markets by catering to demand for 4K content under $10,000 (let alone under $5000, which is where I really think Canon should be looking within the next 12 months). Granted, I think Canon might be most concerned with establishing its brand in Hollywood-- a short-term concern that momentarily displaces margins and volume as the reigning considerations. Plus, from what I hear and read, the C500 is a role player in Hollywood, so Canon's decision to ignore maximized sales volume might have been a miscalculation in the first place.
I know not everyone in this forum shares in the demand for 4K. Some are happy with HD, some consider themselves photographers with littler interest in video. That's fine. But consider this: More and more content is being consumed through screens that aren't TVs, and more and more of these screens come with greater-than-HD pixel density. It doesn't matter that most people don't have 4K TVs, at least not to the extent that some people pretend. You think there's some overlap between the sort of person who might spend $3500 on a well-configured version of Apple's new 5K iMac and the sort of person who might spend $3-5K on a DSLR or C-series camera with 4K? You bet there is. And the 5K iMac is only the most extreme and recent example. Very, very soon, Intel, Microsoft, Apple and many others are going to be pushing greater-than-HD screens in virtually all mid-to-high end laptops, tablets and all-in-one desktops. I work in the media in the tech industry, and this is coming straight from the horse's mouth. The longer Canon lags on resolution, the more exposed its relatively soft video will be on mid-to-high level new computers-- and for an increasing number of people (especially millenials), those computer screens are more important than TVs.
All the above said, one wild card here is the new processor. Canon stuck some relatively ancient tech in the first round of C-series cameras, and it's possible the C100 Mark II produces a materially better images than its predecessor-- all while offering improved autofocus and refined ergonomics. If you're making money on jobs today, this new camera is a viable option-- especially since if you're making money, you'll be able to upgrade to a new camera when the time is right. But for the enthusiast market, or even prosumers who expect even a small degree of future-proofing (e.g. will the new C100 be lamentably dated in two years? Yes, it will), Canon's not trying all that hard.
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Reading through the longer spec sheet on B&H looks to confirm that it is indeed 59.94p in 1080, both mp4 and AVCHD. That's fantastic news, I'm in.
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ajfotofilmagem said:
There's a segment of the market that will slowly migrate to 4K TVs and next-gen disc systems. It's true that Canon doesn't need to rush to reach these people. But again, these people are only a part of the market-- and they're not necessarily the most important (e.g. trend-setting and profitable) parts.
A lot of 4K content will be streamed rather than viewed via hard media, such as discs. Likewise, a lot of 4K content will be consumed via computers and tablets, not just TVs. I see a lot of studies on different trends in device usage, and I spend a lot of time talking to the people making the next generation of devices. Canon doesn't need 4K today, right this moment-- that's true. And for some customers, Canon might never need 4K. But within a year, if Canon doesn't offer 4K at a relatively accessible price point (e.g. $3-5k), it will do so at its own peril. 4K will be too relevant, and Canon's restrained video implementations will be look too soft compared to the competition.
It's also worth pointing out that 4K is useful even if your final output will only be 1080p, as others have mentioned. Canon was happy to talk about how great the 5D Mark III was for media pros who need both stills and videos. Well, I work in that world-- and 4K would be nice. Re-framing the image, getting sharper 1080p, having options as screen density increases-- these are all legitimate uses.
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MGE said:
Again I see the market for 4K on a 5D body being potentially greater than 4K on a camera like the C100. The latter still isn't cheap and I would image that the TV and film markets that care about 4K use are going to be using the C300/C500.
The kind of use video on a 5D body gets on the other hand seems more likely to benefit from 4K. I would imagine for example that couples getting married may well care about "future proofing" video there wedding shooter may take plus as has been mentioned 4K makes editing shots you don't have much time/room to setup easier. With amateurs your likely dealing with people more likely to buy into 4K earlier than the general population plus again more likely to desire the extra editing latitude.
Not being a video shooter I would imagine that the functionality of the C100 is far beyond the 5D so the former could probably still find a market even if the latter offered 4K.
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LetTheRightLensIn said:
But you still have to agree that the 5D3 Raw kills cams like the GH4 for overall image quality.
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I'd like to remind the people talking about the FS7, that the FS700 was a Canon killer on paper too. Then we started seeing what the actual images looked like coming off the FS700, and it wasn't comparable.
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Etienne said:
I agree- if Canon could integrate touch focus into the C100 for the entire frame, this would be a killer feature. Still, they have no reason to keep milking their customers for cams that are not 4K-capable. At least allow this thing to record 4K with an external recorder. It's simply very clear they are still protecting their higher-end at the expense of adding value.
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HurtinMinorKey said:
We've already seen images coming off of the FS7 and it's entirely different story than the FS700- images look more cinematic and using the Slog 3 yields 14 stops of dynamic range with ergonomic usability much greater. I've already heard from cinematographer friends about shows pre-ordering multiple FS7s.
This is a potential C300/100 killer, which is why Canon is currently making moves with the C100ii and adding kits to B&H.
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transpo1 said:
Could you provide some links? All I've seen is this: vimeo.com/105756611 which wasn't that impressive.
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HurtinMinorKey said:
There's another clip, here- no scientific tests yet, but it looks to me like greater dynamic range than the FS700's usable 11-12. Seems to be delivering on the promise of 14 stops.
https://pro.sony.com/bbsc/video/channels-xdcam_hd_products/
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Either way you look at this, its not a compelling update. Yes if you already own a C100, you don’t have much of a reason to upgrade here.
Surely if Canon decides to only offer “internal” 4:2:2 in a C300 upgrade for over $10,000 they cant imagine they wont loose out big time to the SONY FS7 for $8,000 (including 4K) and greatly improved ergonomics.
Other then Canon Fanboys, Im not sure what this offers anyone really. Honestly I’m kinda mystified by this one.
Surely if Canon decides to only offer “internal” 4:2:2 in a C300 upgrade for over $10,000 they cant imagine they wont loose out big time to the SONY FS7 for $8,000 (including 4K) and greatly improved ergonomics.
Other then Canon Fanboys, Im not sure what this offers anyone really. Honestly I’m kinda mystified by this one.
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Clayton said:
It is mystifying and a bit insulting to their customer base. They're trying to give as little value as possible while maintaining profit. Most of the customer base recognize the lack of competitive tech specs and are much smarter than this.
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With a night's rest I still am not impressed with the update, but my disappointment is tempered a bit.
The C100 II is nice, and the improvements are welcome, but I have to look at it as just a stopgap measure. Yes, it fixes most of the original complaints but I was really hoping it would go past that and truly innovate or have the specs that will keep it a relevant camera for the next few years. The internal downsample to HD from the 4k sensor that all the C series cameras do is beautiful. There is no debate on that. But unfortunately there are some needs for actual 4k footage out there too. Shooting for TV in Japan is all being requested in 4k already. It's not 100% yet, but it's the standard now and you have to have a good reason not to be providing 4k. Shows here in the US are doing more in 4k just for reframing in edit and "future proofing" <- in quotes because most of that will never see the light of day again after it airs, but the producers want it anyway. A lot of these guys saw the HD transition and the loss of value in 4:3 SD content so I don't blame them.
With the C100 II Canon has made a very nice camera for today. For next year? It'll still hold up. After that? Well I can make space on the shelf of obsolete tech.
The C100 II is nice, and the improvements are welcome, but I have to look at it as just a stopgap measure. Yes, it fixes most of the original complaints but I was really hoping it would go past that and truly innovate or have the specs that will keep it a relevant camera for the next few years. The internal downsample to HD from the 4k sensor that all the C series cameras do is beautiful. There is no debate on that. But unfortunately there are some needs for actual 4k footage out there too. Shooting for TV in Japan is all being requested in 4k already. It's not 100% yet, but it's the standard now and you have to have a good reason not to be providing 4k. Shows here in the US are doing more in 4k just for reframing in edit and "future proofing" <- in quotes because most of that will never see the light of day again after it airs, but the producers want it anyway. A lot of these guys saw the HD transition and the loss of value in 4:3 SD content so I don't blame them.
With the C100 II Canon has made a very nice camera for today. For next year? It'll still hold up. After that? Well I can make space on the shelf of obsolete tech.
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