Breaking down the latest Canon gear to appear for certification

-pekr-

5D MK IV
CR Pro
No, EOS M line has never been really in question. Only some folks like Thom Hogan and a few n00bs who are unable or unwilling to understand Canon's transition from 2 mirrorslapper mounts (EF, EF-S) to 2 mirrorfree mounts (RF, EF-M).

EF-S is dead. EF is legacy. RF and EF-M will be around for many years to come.
Except nowadays you can use your higher end lens (EF) on a lower end APS-C bodies. Lots of ppl are doing exactly that imo. We did that too, with e.g. Sigma Art and Canon 70-200/2.8 II IS. We did this investment planning to enter FF one day. And we did so with the 5DIV.

Your newly envisioned future of EF-R and EF-M only, removes that possibility though. For a brief period of time I thought, that Canon is going to scrap EF-M mount altogether, and introduce APS-C MILC with EF-R mount. It would be a tad bigger of course, but there would be just one mount, with an EF compatibility. But with recent addition of fast 32mm EF-M lens, it seems that Canon is commited to EF-M too.

On the zero transition possibility between the EF-M and EF-R - "well done", Canon ....
 

Talys

Canon 6DII
CR Pro
Feb 16, 2017
2,063
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Vancouver, BC
Except nowadays you can use your higher end lens (EF) on a lower end APS-C bodies. Lots of ppl are doing exactly that imo. We did that too, with e.g. Sigma Art and Canon 70-200/2.8 II IS. We did this investment planning to enter FF one day. And we did so with the 5DIV.

Your newly envisioned future of EF-R and EF-M only, removes that possibility though. For a brief period of time I thought, that Canon is going to scrap EF-M mount altogether, and introduce APS-C MILC with EF-R mount. It would be a tad bigger of course, but there would be just one mount, with an EF compatibility. But with recent addition of fast 32mm EF-M lens, it seems that Canon is commited to EF-M too.

On the zero transition possibility between the EF-M and EF-R - "well done", Canon ....
I'm ok with this, much more so on EOS M/R versus DSLRs, primarily because Rebels and xxD's were an appropriate size to mount EF lenses, while, EOS M's are a terrible size to mount EF lenses. I mean, I've tried it -- it "works", but there's just no way I'd want to actually shoot a 70-200/2.8 with a M5, let alone anything smaller. And I certainly wouldn't want to mount anything larger.

Also, one big reason to mount an EF lens on a APSC DLSR was always the crop factor in the viewfinder (eg viewfinder magnification) on a telephoto, and of course, there's no reason to make a to telephoto EFS lens, all telephoto lens were going to be FF/EF design anyhow. However, with mirrorless, this isn't an issue, as you can magnify get an artificial crop mode and/or magnify in the EVF. Note that I'm not saying that mirrorless is superior; just that in the context of mirrorless, there's less reason to use an APSC body on a telephoto.

A question that comes to mind, however, if EFM and RF are indeed the future, is, will Canon build consumer-grade, telephoto and superzoom EFM mount lenses? I think they'd sell quite well. If there were an option available, I might even be persuaded to buy something like an M5 + superzoom for vacation.
 
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brad-man

Semi-Reactive Member
Jun 6, 2012
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Except that EF-S has been given a huge new boost of life with the EOS R camera. Those EF-S lenses happen to be the best value lenses for 4K video on the EOS R. Throw on a EF-S 10-18 and you can do some great wide angle 4K footage.

Can you use your EF-M 11-22 for 4K ultrawide recording? Nope. Not until Canon release a EOS M with full-width 4K.

EF-M has been sidelined and positioned clearly as low-end. There will never be an APS-C 7D-class EF-M mount camera.

I wouldn't rule out Canon launching an APS-C version of the EOS R to suit the 7D market (well, once they have a fast enough sensor) and even launching some RF-S lenses to suit it.

However.....
Remember the patent about exchangeable mounts? What if a future 7D class APS-C camera had interchangeable EF-M and RF mounts? I can't imagine it'd be cost-effective for Canon to do that but who knows...

EF is legacy. RF will be the semi-pro to professional mount, and EF-M will be relegated to low end. If you invest in the EF-M system you are stuck in it and won't be able to take advantage of RF lenses, nor will you be able to use your EF-M glass on a RF body, even one with an APS-C sensor. If you invest now in EF-S glass and use it with adaptors on your EF-M, your investment is far more safe, unfortunately.
I suppose by low end, you really meant to say compact and light, right? I mean, it has the best APS-C sensor that Canon currently has and a very user-friendly AF system. The EF-M lenses range from quite good to excellent IQ. Perhaps you've seen the MTF Chart for the latest EF-M release? The only downside I see is that the EF-M mount will not likely be compatible with the R-mount. I suppose this bothers some, but I don't care. I bought the EF-M/EF adapter when I first bought the M during the "fire sale" and it worked flawlessly with every EF lens I used with the M. The thing is, if I'm going to shoot something and I think I'll need a particular EF lens, then I bring the body that goes with that lens, be it crop or FF. I do not use the M as a backup, I use it as a camera that is easy to carry.
EF-M MTF.jpg
EF-RF 35mm lenses.jpg
 

fullstop

EOS R
Apr 23, 2018
1,088
153
Will Zeiss commit to Canon RF?
who cares? :)

Canon is not likely to license their RF lens mount protocol to anybody. And Zeiss does not seem to do reverse-engineered stuff = lenses without AF and without any of the advanced RF features.

Manual focus glass? Not many takers left. Would really love to see sales stats / number of units sold for Zeiss ZE and Otus lenses. i bet it is "less than marginal".

personally i would not even take a manual focus lens for free - including Zeiss/Otus. No AF = no use for it, not worth the hassle.
 
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fullstop

EOS R
Apr 23, 2018
1,088
153
will Canon build consumer-grade, telephoto and superzoom EFM mount lenses? I think they'd sell quite well
yes, but if Canon continues to keep all EF-M lenses to the same 61mm diameter and compact size, there appears to be limited scope for superzooms beyond the existing 18-150 ... even at f/6.3. Maybe a 18-200/4.5-6.3 is still possible. If so, canon will make one for sure. 15-85 ... yes, but at best with f/5.6 on long end. f/4 probably not possible in EF-M size?

i don't see many more, new EF-M lenses to come. It will remain a small lens lineup - just as EF-S was.

Personally I am only interested in a moderately fast, compact, decent IQ tele prime - EF-M 85/2.4 IS STM or thereabouts.

Canon EOS M/EF-M = decent IQ + good functionality and UI + compact size + affordable price. Perfect! It is exactly the opposite approach to Fuji X: "crop-only glass as expensive as FF lenses". So why should one buy it? if i look at the new Fuji 200/2.0 i cannot help but start laughing.

Guess which product portfolio sells better (units and revenue): "low-end EOS M system" or "high-end Fuji X". :)
 

jolyonralph

EOS R5 Mark II
CR Pro
Aug 25, 2015
1,349
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yes, but if Canon continues to keep all EF-M lenses to the same 61mm diameter and compact size, there appears to be limited scope for superzooms beyond the existing 18-150 ... even at f/6.3. Maybe a 18-200/4.5-6.3 is still possible. If so, canon will make one for sure. 15-85 ... yes, but at best with f/5.6 on long end. f/4 probably not possible in EF-M size?
I know for a fact that a high-end zoom lens was built up to test level for the EF-M, I didn't get the full details but I was told it was still variable aperture but much higher quality, so the assumption is something like the EF-S 15-85 lens. Maybe it will still come out as an option for the M5 Mark II, but I doubt it.

I think all we'll see on EF-M is similar lenses to those that we already have. I think a replacement for the EF-M 15-45 kit lens is next, but I doubt it'll be much more than coating updates.

The problem for EF-M users is there is now no obvious reason to upgrade to Canon RF. If you had something like an Canon 70D before chances are once you start expanding your lens collection you'd end up with EF lenses as well as EF-S, maybe a 70-300, 50, 85mm etc. Then the move to FF isn't as painful as you already have some glass you can keep using.

And, if the Canon R *had* been EF-M mount rather than RF, current APS-C EF-M lenses would be just perfect for 4K video on it. But, for very good reasons, they didn't do that.

The big question, as I've raised before, is what happens to the 7D class APS-C mirrorless? It wouldn't seem right for that to use the EF-M mount with no access to the future RF lenses, it'd have to be RF mount. Which means that RF-S lenses are actually a distinct possibility, and - as I've said before - that would lead to the EF-M being sidelined into a seperate compact APS-C family with no connectivity into the new family of RF (and possibly RF-S) bodies and lenses.
 

fullstop

EOS R
Apr 23, 2018
1,088
153
7D ... there will be a mirrorslapper 7D III, giving Canon and customers 4 years time to expand EOS R lineup - bodies and lenses. later on,

* tele-centric 7D-class users will be migrated to future EOS R "sports/ fast action/ wildlife" camera/s. their existing EF teles will continue to work and new RF teles will become available over time. "viewfinder cropping" not as important in mirrorfree world. so overall "no big deal" 5 years into EOS R system.

* non tele-centric users can either go "small, decent and affordable" with enhanced future EOS M5 bodies or "step up to" EOS R. existing EF glass adaptable to both systems. so no big deal either.
 

aa_angus

EOS 90D
Nov 25, 2015
188
32
The Canon 6DII is the most amazing camera to shoot with. I adore using it so much. Absolutely outstanding in all areas for still photography (which is all that matters, since video wankers should buy video cameras).
 

hachu21

EOS M6 Mark II
Feb 11, 2014
93
18
On the zero transition possibility between the EF-M and EF-R - "well done", Canon ....
the EF/EF-S ecosystem comes from a time where the market was very different. Canon made the choice to drop the in-brand compatibility between APSC and FF system, AKA "the upgrade path". I understand it can bother some. But you have to think about the main benefit :
- the smaller mount allow for more compact and light bodies and lenses (the 11-22 and the 22 are unrivaled for the quality/size ratio. And it seems that the 32 f/1.4 will fall in the same category)

Why this compactness/lightness is so important?
- because nowadays, all people discover photography with their phones. If you want them to go for a real camera system, something easy to carry, affordable and with a quality gap big enough is necessary. The old days of the rebel line are over (or soon to be).
- like the rebel days, the vast majority of the bodies buyers won't upgrade. On this segment, I think the majority doesn't want to carry heavy lenses or just can't afford them.
- on this very segment, competition has never been so strong : Panasonic, olympus and fuji are dedicated to compact systems. Sony have very compact bodies too but with fewer lenses.

All in all, a dedicated mount to be able to produce a real compact and light system seem right to me.

The mirrorless version of the 7D is another question though.
I agree with full stop. For the time being, since both EF-M and RF can mount flawlessly the EF long lenses, canon have several options.
- I think we'll see a 7D3 with mirror.
- the "7D4" (in 5+ years it seems…) could be a beffier EF-M,
- a RF body with state of the art APSC sensor doesn't seem right but who knows...
- or the higher pixel count FF can kill this line alltogether
 
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jolyonralph

EOS R5 Mark II
CR Pro
Aug 25, 2015
1,349
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Lol RF-S lenses...yeah right.
Well, the other alternative is that the 7D class is dead after the 7D Mark III and will not be replaced with a mirrorless equivalent.

Probably no big deal because by that time Canon will have got their sensor act together and have full global shutter and the ability for a full-frame sensor to record APS-C shots much faster. So a 5DSR size full-frame sensor will give you a 20mpx APS-C crop image.
 

scyrene

EOS R6
Dec 4, 2013
2,802
944
UK
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Except nowadays you can use your higher end lens (EF) on a lower end APS-C bodies. Lots of ppl are doing exactly that imo. We did that too, with e.g. Sigma Art and Canon 70-200/2.8 II IS. We did this investment planning to enter FF one day. And we did so with the 5DIV.

Your newly envisioned future of EF-R and EF-M only, removes that possibility though. For a brief period of time I thought, that Canon is going to scrap EF-M mount altogether, and introduce APS-C MILC with EF-R mount. It would be a tad bigger of course, but there would be just one mount, with an EF compatibility. But with recent addition of fast 32mm EF-M lens, it seems that Canon is commited to EF-M too.

On the zero transition possibility between the EF-M and EF-R - "well done", Canon ....
The question I think we need to bear in mind is, how many people use both FF and APS-C? We know a lot do anecdotally, but maybe they ran the numbers and don't think it matters if there's no compatibility between the two systems? EF-M seems to be aimed at those wanting a small and light system. Adding extra bulk by replacing it with RF would put some people off - maybe more than they'd gain by improving cross-compatibility? (And they'd really like us all to buy both systems and sets of lenses).
 

aa_angus

EOS 90D
Nov 25, 2015
188
32
The question why does ANYONE want to use crop sensor cameras in 2018? Is it the lower IQ or sacrificed DOF ability that they love so much?
 

jolyonralph

EOS R5 Mark II
CR Pro
Aug 25, 2015
1,349
701
London, UK
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The question why does ANYONE want to use crop sensor cameras in 2018? Is it the lower IQ or sacrificed DOF ability that they love so much?
1. Smaller/cheaper standard lenses
2. Crop factor can be beneficial with longer lenses such as big whites when taking photos of things you're too lazy to walk closer to :)
3. Faster frame rate than taking, for example, a 5DSR and cropping out the APS-C area.
 
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tron

EOS R5
CR Pro
Nov 8, 2011
4,656
880
Well, the other alternative is that the 7D class is dead after the 7D Mark III and will not be replaced with a mirrorless equivalent.

Probably no big deal because by that time Canon will have got their sensor act together and have full global shutter and the ability for a full-frame sensor to record APS-C shots much faster. So a 5DSR size full-frame sensor will give you a 20mpx APS-C crop image.
It does now - and in fact I got a 5DsR for birding and I didn't regret it - but at more at double the cost.
 

aa_angus

EOS 90D
Nov 25, 2015
188
32
At what point does a phone become a better tool than a crop sensor SLR? I'd take the just released iPhone over a 7D2. More useful. If you want to use a small sensor, you may as well use a small sensor with a load of advantages.
 

Mikehit

EOS R6
Jul 28, 2015
3,309
502
At what point does a phone become a better tool than a crop sensor SLR? I'd take the just released iPhone over a 7D2. More useful. If you want to use a small sensor, you may as well use a small sensor with a load of advantages.
:rolleyes:
Now stop it. My superior rectus is getting strained.
 

zim

EOS 5D Mark IV
CR Pro
Oct 18, 2011
1,937
135
Unless there's a real shock coming I don't think Canon are able to compete with the A9 yet. No IBIS, sensor tech not yet close. Canon have some advantages, especially when it comes to DPAF, but I think an A9 or 1DX class mirrorless is a long way off..
Question: Whilst I can't argue with those thoughts (don't know enough about it) would Canon be able to compensate for that lack of tech by throwing a stack of grunt into the camera? Even if they have to do a you get those extra fps's only with a battery pack which I wouldn't be averse too.
 
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