Canon and Nikon - Past Their Prime? by Kai Wong

[Skywise]

Will this change? Possibly, as the technology improves. But, really why should either Canon or Nikon rush into a market that could fade; when it would require a major investment; and the technology is only partially developed?

True and I agree with what you say - But without the relatively lucrative p&s market I don't think Canon or Nikon can really survive, let alone grow, on the remaining DSLR market alone.

 

[unfocused]

Will this change? Possibly, as the technology improves. But, really why should either Canon or Nikon rush into a market that could fade; when it would require a major investment; and the technology is only partially developed?

True and I agree with what you say - But without the relatively lucrative p&s market I don't think Canon or Nikon can really survive, let alone grow, on the remaining DSLR market alone.

Possibly, but remember that Canon and Nikon built their businesses without the point and shoot market, unlike Sony, Panasonic, etc.

For Canon and Nikon the market really is just returning to a historical pattern that they are very familiar with. Most of the other companies entered the market during the boom years and may be less prepared and less committed to their photography lines. Of course, neither Canon nor Nikon depend solely on their DSLR lines. I'm more familiar with Canon, of course, which is a major player in a number of other industries. But, I get the sense that Nikon is reasonably well diversified as well, even if it is primarily in the optics industry (binoculars, spotting scopes, gun scopes, etc.)

The player that I think people do underestimate though is Fuji. This is a company that saw the entire film industry collapse and yet has succeeded (compare to Kodak). I've read that Fuji is the company that Canon is most worried about and I think it may be with good reason, given both their history and their current product line.

 

[Rienzphotoz]

I'm not DR guy. Be able to shoot at higher ISO is what I'm really after in FF world. The reason I purchased A7 is compact - for travel oversea and just taking picture of my kids on short trip . I'm interested to add 2-3 Zeiss FE lenses to this compact system

I just don't see myself attaching 24-70 f2.8, 70-200 f2.8, 100-400 f4, 300mm, or 400mm on this compact body. 5D III/1D X feels so much better with big lenses - not to mention AF tracking on DSLR is something current mirrorless can't keep up.

+1 ... I won't be selling my 5D MK III and my EF lenses, in fact I'd be one of the first in line to get the 5D MK IV and a 100-400 L I version 2 (whenever they come out) ... but I'd definitely add the ZEISS 24-70 f/4 zoom, a compact UWA and a compact Macro lens for the A7 ... for me that's where I'd stop with the lenses for mirrorless cameras ... of course I definitely see my self buying the version 2 of A7 or A7R

 

[weixing]

There are two diff. markets, Pro and everyday shooter. The Pro will cont. with DSLR and wonderful L lenses.

Not true. Many professional photographers are using mirrorless systems.

IMHO, don't need to worry for Canon... they already had the technology to come out a good mirrorless camera anytime...

IMHO, I don't think so. Both Canon and Nikon have been in the SLR game so long that they have millions tied into research and development that has not yet paid for itself. The insistence by Canon to slap IS into basically any new lens is proof of this assumption. This also means that they have been spending a lot of dinero on perfecting this technology, instead of simply binning it in favour of new ideas.

I do not believe Canon and Nikon are "past their prime" ...

As far as the "enthusiast" segment goes, yes, both Canon and Nikon are past it. I agree with you that both companies are severely missing out on a very lucrative market.

... so I think CaNikon are just biding their time.

Personally, I have my eye on either the Olympus E-M10 or the Fujifilm X-T1 for my non-super-telephoto stuff ... as neither Canon nor Nikon has anything to compete with these cameras. Once I've bought into either (non-Canon) system, I also won't be contributing to Canon's profit for a time.

Hi,
There is no need to research in mirrorless camera for Canon or Nikon. When you shoot in live view, you are actually using a "mirrorless" camera already... just without EVF. With dual pixel AF, Canon had all the technology to make a reasonable fast mirrorless camera anytime...

Actually, I would prefer them to make a hybrid system... put an EVF behind the prism, so you had a setting that enable the EVF to turn on when the mirror is up and you can lock the mirror in up position if you prefer to use the EVF, but I guess if this going to happen, it'll happen to the 1D series... not a camera I can afford... ha ha ha.

Have a nice day.

 

[missitnoonan]

I just can't see this right now in the US market, almost everyone I know owns a DSLR of some sort and I only know one person with a mirrorless system. Most of these people are parents with young children or grandparents who want the ability to track moving targets and eliminate shutter lag. In the lower price bracket ($500ish) you're going to do much better with a DSLR for this than a mirrored camera. I just don't see how mirrorless is going to eat DSLR sales for this demographic.

I'm at the top end of cameras in my group (and these aren't people lacking in funds) and I'm shooting a 60d. The market for full frame is much smaller than for APSC, the number of people looking to shoot legacy manual focus lenses is miniscule in comparison to grandparents with their DSLR and kit lens, and I think everyone is just too quick to see an A7 and going running for the hills yelling DSLR sales are dying. It's still an expensive camera with expensive lenses. It's going to have little effect on most camera sales.

 

[pdirestajr]

Canon just needs to Make an EOS Rebel N with a Facebook button instead of that printer button! Yeah! That will do it! And lots of fun color options.

 

[Lichtgestalt]

honestly i don´t know why i should read or listen to that guy.
he is as clueless about photography as the next guy on the street.

his "reviews" are useless... except for those who like the three stooges movies too.

i don´t get why some watch his videos.
when you have seen one you have seen all.

 

[pdirestajr]

honestly i don´t know why i should read or listen to that guy.
he is as clueless about photography as the next guy on the street.

his "reviews" are useless... except for those who like the three stooges movies too.

i don´t get why some watch his videos.
when you have seen one you have seen all.

I think they are entertaining. Does everything about photography have to be so serious and technical all the time?

 

[emag]

Kai is simply wong. But I do find his videos entertaining.

 

[neuroanatomist]

Would be true, if it wasn't for the fact that the A7R trumps the 5D3 and 1DX in FF IQ

Sure, if you don't have to focus on fast-moving subjects. If you do, the 5DIII and 1D X trump the a7R in FF AF tracking.

It is without a doubt the best camera available for my dear L-lenses..

You might be interested in what Roger Cicala (owner of Lensrentals) has to say:

[quote author=Roger Cicala]
When a single camera-lens interface has enough variability to sometimes be visible, adding another large piece of metal with another mount interface seems a recipe for problems….

Putting a great lens on your camera via an adapter might still be better than an average native-mount lens. On the other hand, that great lens certainly wouldn’t be as good as it would be on its native-mount camera.
[/quote]

 

[msm]

...

It is without a doubt the best camera available for my dear L-lenses..

You might be interested in what Roger Cicala (owner of Lensrentals) has to say:

[quote author=Roger Cicala]
When a single camera-lens interface has enough variability to sometimes be visible, adding another large piece of metal with another mount interface seems a recipe for problems….

Putting a great lens on your camera via an adapter might still be better than an average native-mount lens. On the other hand, that great lens certainly wouldn’t be as good as it would be on its native-mount camera.

[/quote]

He also says this in a later article:

"An adapter that really messes up laboratory testing results generally has very little to no effect on actual pictures."

Having tested A7R on most of my Canon lenses I can't really see much of these alleged problems in my actual pictures. All lenses I have tested provide a lot more detail and resolution than on my Canon cameras. I would be more worried about AF and IS working poorly on some lenses through the adapter.

 

[Mt Spokane Photography]

In regard to...
"At the risk of stating the obvious, doesn't it rather depend what you intend doing with the combination? I wouldn't want to try shooting birds handheld with a tiny body on a big lens."
...

Great discussion. My personal opinion is that the slr market is severely hindered by our pre-conceived notion that a camera should look like an slr. In the future, I'd anticipate this model to be broken.

Do you remember when digital cameras first hit the market? Manufacturers tried to differentiate digital cameras by the shape. After all, digital cameras were new technology and should have a distinctive design so that others knew that your camera was digital and you were cool!
When they started producing digital cameras that looked like a traditional camera, and added that REAR LCD for instant gratification, sales really took off. It didn't take long for everyone to change their designs to look like a conventional film camera and have a rear LCD.

Maybe its time for a innovative shape, but who is going to bet their company on it? Of course, there are some for whom a camera body might be a fashion statement, but its questionable as to the size of that market.


Canon

Apple was one of the early ones!

Ricoh

Kodak

 

[tolusina]

...Sometimes Nikon and Canon remind me of that 50-year-old guy with a pony-tail and an earring cruising the bars trying to pick up 21-year-olds. ......

Here, let me offer a variation on that theme, a 50 year old that rides a fixie, may fail, and willingly, with the 21 year olds, succeeds just fine with 30 year olds.

Kai's article, however, reads like a guy just returned from a costume party and failed.
He seems to be carrying a grudge over Nikon's Pure Photography videos, I cannot figure why. Nikon's model is out in wild fields somewhere (English Moors?), contemplating his next shot. Kai routinely does the same in his videos except in the wilds of Hong Kong, Amsterdam or wherever. I think he's just jealous of Nikon's model.
The Df is cool, a D610 with a D4 sensor in a retro looking package for half the price of a D4. The next version will look better, the first isn't bad for a first retro effort.

If the Df being cool needs explaining, you wouldn't understand.

I think Kai is being the fuddy duddy in this article.
---
Canon and Nikon DSLRs are fine machines, both up the state of the art incrementally with each new model.
I heartily encourage those that are dissatisfied with the current rate of improvement to the state of the art to fully develop, manufacture and market a better product. While you are at it, it better be 100% PERFECT for EVERYONE at all times under all conditions.
---
I do think it would be cool if Canon and Nikon were to develop and market competing mirrorless cameras that integrated a fully functional smart phone.
---
I do like Kai, generally, and enjoy watching most of his videos.
I'm especially fond of this one...........

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kWgnkIq6bds

 

[Niki]

in today's market things are moving very fast...

 

[unfocused]

Nikon's model is out in wild fields somewhere (English Moors?), contemplating his next shot.

Sitting by a campfire in the middle of a field on a pitch black night. I'd love to see the card from his pure photography session.

 

[Rienzphotoz]

honestly i don´t know why i should read or listen to that guy.
he is as clueless about photography as the next guy on the street.

his "reviews" are useless... except for those who like the three stooges movies too.

i don´t get why some watch his videos.
when you have seen one you have seen all.

That's ironic ... coz the gist of your post is: "his reviews are useless" and call everyone who watches his reviews as people "who like the three stooges movies" ... now, that you got your feelings off your chest with the above comments, could you please care to contribute something of substance as to what you think about the innovative mirrorless cameras vs the entry level dslrs. Thanks

 

[Rienzphotoz]

In regard to...
"At the risk of stating the obvious, doesn't it rather depend what you intend doing with the combination? I wouldn't want to try shooting birds handheld with a tiny body on a big lens."
...

Great discussion. My personal opinion is that the slr market is severely hindered by our pre-conceived notion that a camera should look like an slr. In the future, I'd anticipate this model to be broken.

Do you remember when digital cameras first hit the market? Manufacturers tried to differentiate digital cameras by the shape. After all, digital cameras were new technology and should have a distinctive design so that others knew that your camera was digital and you were cool!
When they started producing digital cameras that looked like a traditional camera, and added that REAR LCD for instant gratification, sales really took off. It didn't take long for everyone to change their designs to look like a conventional film camera and have a rear LCD.

Maybe its time for a innovative shape, but who is going to bet their company on it? Of course, there are some for whom a camera body might be a fashion statement, but its questionable as to the size of that market.


Canon

Apple was one of the early ones!

Ricoh

Kodak

Good point

 

[Sella174]

Canon and Nikon DSLRs are fine machines, both up the state of the art incrementally with each new model.
I heartily encourage those that are dissatisfied with the current rate of improvement to the state of the art to fully develop, manufacture and market a better product.

Why, when Fujifilm, Panasonic, Olympus, Sony and even Samsung are doing such a great job.

While you are at it, it better be 100% PERFECT for EVERYONE at all times under all conditions.

Why this requirement, when both Canon and Nikon aren't.

 

[tolusina]

Canon and Nikon DSLRs are fine machines, both up the state of the art incrementally with each new model.
I heartily encourage those that are dissatisfied with the current rate of improvement to the state of the art to fully develop, manufacture and market a better product.

Why, when Fujifilm, Panasonic, Olympus, Sony and even Samsung are doing such a great job.

While you are at it, it better be 100% PERFECT for EVERYONE at all times under all conditions.

Why this requirement, when both Canon and Nikon aren't.

That requirement is for whiners that complain about the current state of affairs. As I posted, I wholeheartedly encourage such whiners to do a better job, their success, or lack of, can then be evaluated according to the volume, or lack of volume, of whining complaints regarding features, options, capabilities, ergonomics, image quality, DR, burst rate etc..
In other words, you want to First World Whine and Complain? Fine,go ahead, then put your money where your mouth is. Otherwise, STFU and learn to appreciate just how marvelous and capable modern cameras are.

To paraphrase Robert Capa who said;
"If your photographs aren't good enough, you're not close enough."
tolusina says;
If your camera is not good enough for you, your wallet isn't empty enough, you need more gear.
---
As I recall, back in the days of film and manual focus regarding top line cameras, Nikon was pretty much tops, Canon a close second, Pentax a distant third.
Somewhere along the line to the present, Canon and Nikon switched positions, Pentax lost the way.
There is enough distinct and superior about Canon's products that the marketplace, that'd be us, has put Canon on top, a position they've earned.
Even Scott Kelby has finally figured it out.
Nikon has some glass, yes.
But Nikon offshores a lot of its manufacturing, really just builds bodies and has some involvement in EXPEED development, then stuffs a Sony sensor inside and calls it good enough.
I just looked for the 'Made in' labels on my Nikon and Canon gear, here's what I found;
Two Nikon bodies and one lens Made in Thailand, one lens from China, one Speedlight made in Japan. A Nikon mount Tamron lens Made in Japan.
One Canon body, two (identical) Speedlights, one lens, one flash remote all made in Japan, pancake 40 made in Malaysia.
Canon proudly offers a fairly complete, comprehensive and very competent system, they build where they live (mostly~).

You mention Fujifilm, Panasonic, Olympus, Sony and even Samsung, you forgot Pentax.
Seriously? None of them even begin to approach the market space that is Canon's, not even close. They are much more mass market devices, decidedly down market.
Whatever FF offerings there may be that attempt, or appear to attempt, entering the Canon defined market space, I've no interest in cobbling together those with various aftermarket goodies, then show up with a cobbled set to a high dollar wedding assignment, corporate client or studio portrait shoot.

Reminds me of the day I was at some scenic spot with my 6D, guy shooting with his phone tells me he can do anything with his phone that I can do with my 6D. Oh please, just stop. Same guy probably believes Earth is only 4K years old, just ignorant.

To answer Kai's question, remember? The topic of this thread?
Canon is very much on top of their game, at a peak of their prime. It's Canon's game. They've established the rules of the game and excel, Nikon puppies along behind.

Fujifilm, Panasonic, Olympus, Sony and even Samsung, Mark Zuckerberg loves ya!

---
All that ^^ said, I'd still like to see Canon and Nikon come out with cameras that incorporate a fully integrated smart phone, I think there's a Samsung in that direction, an Android Galaxy Camera, doesn't look to be a phone though, not all that camera wise either.






.

 

[Badger]

How about we take the sensor from the Sony A7R and slap it into an SLR body?

At the end of the day, its all about ending up with the best picture possible but many of us are so comfortable with the SLR form factor that any other form, makes us uncomfortable. We also "look" less than professional if we show up with a "smallish" camera that looks like the same camera everyone else has