Canon and Nikon - Past Their Prime? by Kai Wong

[Woody]

The insistence by Canon to slap IS into basically any new lens is proof of this assumption. This also means that they have been spending a lot of dinero on perfecting this technology, instead of simply binning it in favour of new ideas.

Does the latest and best mirrorless from Sony, the 36 MP A7R, come with in-body stabilisation? NO

Does the upcoming Sony 70-200 f/4 lens feature OSS? YES

So much for new ideas from Sony...

 

[Sella174]

tolusina says;
If your camera is not good enough for you, your wallet isn't empty enough, you need more gear.

No, I want a camera that isn't still stuck in the 1990's.

As I recall, back in the days of film and manual focus regarding top line cameras, Nikon was pretty much tops, Canon a close second, Pentax a distant third.

Back when I started with photography, Canon was non-existent. It was all Asahi and Nikon. Oh, and Minolta.

Even Scott Kelby has finally figured it out.

Well, it sure took him long enough. Guess I'm smarter than him, because I switched to Canon nearly twenty years ago.

You mention Fujifilm, Panasonic, Olympus, Sony and even Samsung, you forgot Pentax.

No, I didn't. Pentax, just like Nikon and Canon, is still dicking around with the basic SLR design from the 1960's.

None of them even begin to approach the market space that is Canon's, not even close.

A study of biological mass extinctions shows that the larger animals are the ones who croak, not the little fellows. IMO, Canon and Nikon have reached the stage where they are so afraid of failure that they will actually fail due to inaction. Pentax is just stuck in tradition. (All are classic examples of the Peter Principle.)

Reminds me of the day I was at some scenic spot with my 6D, guy shooting with his phone tells me he can do anything with his phone that I can do with my 6D. Oh please, just stop.

Well, I know a few professional photographers with impressive cameras and lenses, who should rather start selling shoes or something.

 

[Sella174]

The insistence by Canon to slap IS into basically any new lens is proof of this assumption. This also means that they have been spending a lot of dinero on perfecting this technology, instead of simply binning it in favour of new ideas.

Does the latest and best mirrorless from Sony, the 36 MP A7R, come with in-body stabilisation? NO

Does the upcoming Sony 70-200 f/4 lens feature OSS? YES

So much for new ideas from Sony...

With sensors doing ISO12800 easily and still increasing, why do we need IS in sub-100mm lenses? Just chase up the sensitivity. Huh?

As for Sony and "in-body stabilisation" ... well, maybe they didn't include it to keep the cost down. But, interestingly, Panasonic seems to be switching to an "in-body" system, as it works much better for video.

 

[scyrene]

Pentax, just like Nikon and Canon, is still dicking around with the basic SLR design from the 1960's.

None of them even begin to approach the market space that is Canon's, not even close.

A study of biological mass extinctions shows that the larger animals are the ones who croak, <b>not the little fellows</b>. IMO, Canon and Nikon have reached the stage where they are so afraid of failure that they will actually fail due to inaction. Pentax is just stuck in tradition. (All are classic examples of the Peter Principle.)

Reminds me of the day I was at some scenic spot with my 6D, guy shooting with his phone tells me he can do anything with his phone that I can do with my 6D. Oh please, just stop.

Well, I know a few professional photographers with impressive cameras and lenses, who should rather start selling shoes or something.

With all due respect (uh oh), a couple of things. Firstly, I've heard a fair bit of 'DSLRs are an old/dead/dead end/outdated design' talk. And no doubt for some purposes, they are inappropriate. But I've yet to see a better system proposed for some things (my pet area being long focal length wildlife photography). And while I suspect inertia has played a role in the relatively static nature of camera design recently, I also believe there must be good design reasons why DSLRs are still popular, with both designers and consumers. I look forward to seeing new designs if they are better, but I won't hold my breath.

And as for the mass extinction metaphor, oh dear. What relevance does the size vs survivability of species have to do with something entirely different, companies? I think this is a rather too laboured analogy to say anything. In any case, huge numbers of smaller organisms (wherever your size cutoff happens to be) died out in mass extinctions (and do so in regular extinctions). Most crinoids and brachiopods, and all trilobites and ammonites (some of which were large, but many of which were small) have gone extinct. In the human corporate world, it doesn't seem to me that smaller companies do better than large ones, either in terms of providing better products or services (both types do both), or surviving recessions (= mass extinctions?).

 

[tolusina]

…....No, I want a camera that isn't still stuck in the 1990's........

….... Pentax, just like Nikon and Canon, is still dicking around with the basic SLR design from the 1960's.....

Well, there you go then, sounds like you are volunteering, you're it. You make it, whatever it is you want.

 

[Sella174]

…....No, I want a camera that isn't still stuck in the 1990's........

….... Pentax, just like Nikon and Canon, is still dicking around with the basic SLR design from the 1960's.....

Well, there you go then, sounds like you are volunteering, you're it. You make it, whatever it is you want.

I have better things to do with my dinero. But I leave you with this ...

All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self evident. - Arthur Scopenhauer (1788-1860)

 

[Woody]

With sensors doing ISO12800 easily and still increasing, why do we need IS in sub-100mm lenses? Just chase up the sensitivity. Huh?

Just because you see no value in adding IS to sub-100 mm lenses does not mean others have no use for it.

As for Sony and "in-body stabilisation" ... well, maybe they didn't include it to keep the cost down.

Or maybe they do not know how to do it for a 36 MP FF sensor? Also the point of making 70-200 f/4 OSS is... ???

 

[tolusina]

I have better things to do with my dinero. But I leave you with this ...

And like most individuals, likely insufficient dinero and other necessary resources.
And when in this so common condition, one will experience much lower stress levels by accepting what one is unable to change.

There are at least a few upstarts making market share for themselves, Red and Blackmagic come to mind. They've grabbed the horns, dove right in.

.....All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self evident. - Arthur Scopenhauer (1788-1860)...

Not sure how this is relevant to the current topic.
Are you agreeing with Kai somehow, that Canon and Nikon are past their prime?
How does that synch with the true fact that currently marketed cameras are the very best that has ever been? They have more and better everything and incrementally continue to improve with each new release.
Are you thinking, wishing, thinking consumers have some right to demand an entirely new paradigm?




.

 

[Sella174]

With sensors doing ISO12800 easily and still increasing, why do we need IS in sub-100mm lenses? Just chase up the sensitivity. Huh?

Just because you see no value in adding IS to sub-100 mm lenses does not mean others have no use for it.

Canon makes four 70-200mm lenses, an IS and a non-IS version of each. It gives the user a choice.

Canon is updating their non-L primes to IS versions only. No choice. The user pays for IS whether or not it is required. Why?

As for Sony and "in-body stabilisation" ... well, maybe they didn't include it to keep the cost down.

Or maybe they do not know how to do it for a 36 MP FF sensor? Also the point of making 70-200 f/4 OSS is... ???

Possibly. Also, some form of IS is expected by the demographic Sony is targeting ... so possibly marketing?

 

[Sella174]

I have better things to do with my dinero. But I leave you with this ...

And like most individuals, likely insufficient dinero and other necessary resources.
And when in this so common condition, one will experience much lower stress levels by accepting what one is unable to change.

There are at least a few upstarts making market share for themselves, Red and Blackmagic come to mind. They've grabbed the horns, dove right in.

In my chosen profession, which is not photography, I'm considered an "upstart" in the business. So that's where my dinero is going.

.....All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self evident. - Arthur Scopenhauer (1788-1860)...

Not sure how this is relevant to the current topic.

Quite relevant. For example, you're in stage two ... violently opposing a shift towards mirrorless.

How does that synch with the true fact that currently marketed cameras are the very best that has ever been? They have more and better everything and incrementally continue to improve with each new release.

Ever used a Canon EOS 3 film camera? If you have (which you'll probably admit, but I don't believe you), you'll know that when Canon went DSLR, everything went backwards at least 5 years.

 

[AvTvM]

Well, there you go then, sounds like you are volunteering, you're it. You make it, whatever it is you want.

Rules of the consumer market are other way round.

I, the (potential) customer know, what I want. Very preciely, since I am an experienced customer. Any company able to build something meeting all or most of my expectations may show me what they got and nicely ask me whether I am willing to buy.

So to get 'em camera makers going, here's what I want:

• a mirrorless interchangable lens camera
• not bulkier or heavier than the Sony A7R
• clean, non "retro" styling and UI. 1 wheel front, 1 wheel back, 1 multifunction ring around lens mount, 1 locked mode dial, no top display, 1 shutter release, 1 on/off switch, 1 Back-AF button, 4 buttons top right for ISO, Drive Mode, Metering mode, AF-mode]
  • nice and strong mag-alloy body shell, IP 67 ingress-protected against dust and liquids
  • with a 36x24mm sensor and assorted electronic circuitry yielding
  • 30+ MP and image quality at ISO up to 1600 as good as or better than Nikon D800
  • IQ at ISO 3200-12800 as good as or better than EOS 6D
  • AF-performance, star-up, shot-to-shot-times and frame rate (6fps) at least as good as 5D III
  • an EVF that is one notch better in resoultion and lag than the one in Sony A7/R
  • fully working Eye Control Focus 2.0 - allowing control of hybrid PD/CD-AF system in EVF
  • 100% mechanics-free, absolutely silent and totally vibration-free shutter
  • WiFi allowing full remote control and capture over iGadgets, Android-devices and other WiFI enabled gear
  • wireless RT radio flash commander built in including 2nd curtain sync and control over speedlite zoom reflector
  • pop-up fill flash built in
  • truly useful AF-assist light projecting near-infrared laser grid as found in Sony DSC F-808
  • GPS logger built in
  • fully articulated 300+ dpi 3+" touchscreen display at back, fully visible even in direct, strong sunlight
  • all liveview-controls and playback controls as context-aware soft keys on touch screen
  • menu system like 5D III
  • 500+ shots with one battery charge
  • in-body-stabilizer working at least as good as Oly's OMD1's
  • at a launch price of max. 2499 Euros [2999 USD]
  • plus chargeable options: full-HD video @ 500 USD
  • 4k 120fps video ... @5000 USD extra charge
  • direct upload to facebook, flickr, twitter, instagram, Canon image gateway, NSA-cloud server ... @ 99 USD/monthly subscription charge .. per service
  • soundfile with mirrorslpa/shutter noise ... as low as 1,99 [meek and feeble EOS 1000D sound] up to 9,99 [1D-X or thunder-like Nikon F3 slap] - per download
  
  plus a starting lineup of well-performing. small, light and affordable native short flange-distance lenses:
  • 3 fix focals as small as possible, as good and as cheap as the existing EF 40/2.8:
  • 20mm/4.0
  • 40mm/2.8
  • 85mm/2.8
  • Plus one good, but also compact and reaonably priced walkaround standard zoom 24-70/4.0.
  • and an EF lens adaptor letting me use my existing EF lenses without any compromise in functionality or IQ whatsoever
  • All of the new lenses AF-only, no manual focus gear, no manual focus ring, but with independently certified IP67-grade sealing.
  
  Everything possible using today's technology. As soon as CaNikon are going to offer products like these, the ratio of mirrorless vs. DSLRs will turn around in a few years. And camera makers will be saved from extinction one more time, as 99.9% of serious photographers will upgrade from their fat old mirrorslappers of yesteryear to 21st century cameras. ;D 8)

 

[Random Orbits]

Rules of the consumer market are other way round.

I, the (potential) customer know, what I want. Very preciely, since I am an experienced customer. Any company able to build something meeting all or most of my expectations may show me what they got and nicely ask me whether I am willing to buy.

So to get 'em camera makers going, here's what I want:

• a mirrorless interchangable lens camera
• not bulkier or heavier than the Sony A7R
• clean, non "retro" styling and UI. 1 wheel front, 1 wheel back, 1 multifunction ring around lens mount, 1 locked mode dial, no top display, 1 shutter release, 1 on/off switch, 1 Back-AF button, 4 buttons top right for ISO, Drive Mode, Metering mode, AF-mode]
  • nice and strong mag-alloy body shell, IP 67 ingress-protected against dust and liquids
  • with a 36x24mm sensor and assorted electronic circuitry yielding
  • 30+ MP and image quality at ISO up to 1600 as good as or better than Nikon D800
  • IQ at ISO 3200-12800 as good as or better than EOS 6D
  • AF-performance, star-up, shot-to-shot-times and frame rate (6fps) at least as good as 5D III
  • an EVF that is one notch better in resoultion and lag than the one in Sony A7/R
  • fully working Eye Control Focus 2.0 - allowing control of hybrid PD/CD-AF system in EVF
  • 100% mechanics-free, absolutely silent and totally vibration-free shutter
  • WiFi allowing full remote control and capture over iGadgets, Android-devices and other WiFI enabled gear
  • wireless RT radio flash commander built in including 2nd curtain sync and control over speedlite zoom reflector
  • pop-up fill flash built in
  • truly useful AF-assist light projecting near-infrared laser grid as found in Sony DSC F-808
  • GPS logger built in
  • fully articulated 300+ dpi 3+" touchscreen display at back, fully visible even in direct, strong sunlight
  • all liveview-controls and playback controls as context-aware soft keys on touch screen
  • menu system like 5D III
  • 500+ shots with one battery charge
  • in-body-stabilizer working at least as good as Oly's OMD1's
  • at a launch price of max. 2499 Euros [2999 USD]
  • plus chargeable options: full-HD video @ 500 USD
  • 4k 120fps video ... @5000 USD extra charge
  • direct upload to facebook, flickr, twitter, instagram, Canon image gateway, NSA-cloud server ... @ 99 USD/monthly subscription charge .. per service
  • soundfile with mirrorslpa/shutter noise ... as low as 1,99 [meek and feeble EOS 1000D sound] up to 9,99 [1D-X or thunder-like Nikon F3 slap] - per download
  
  plus a starting lineup of well-performing. small, light and affordable native short flange-distance lenses:
  • 3 fix focals as small as possible, as good and as cheap as the existing EF 40/2.8:
  • 20mm/4.0
  • 40mm/2.8
  • 85mm/2.8
  • Plus one good, but also compact and reaonably priced walkaround standard zoom 24-70/4.0.
  • and an EF lens adaptor letting me use my existing EF lenses without any compromise in functionality or IQ whatsoever
  • All of the new lenses AF-only, no manual focus gear, no manual focus ring, but with independently certified IP67-grade sealing.
  
  Everything possible using today's technology. As soon as CaNikon are going to offer products like these, the ratio of mirrorless vs. DSLRs will turn around in a few years. And camera makers will be saved from extinction one more time, as 99.9% of serious photographers will upgrade from their fat old mirrorslappers of yesteryear to 21st century cameras. ;D 8)

• 
  
  You're list of mirrorless requirements gets longer and longer over time. By the time these requirements are satisfied, I'm sure you'll add more and berate SonCaNikon for not meeting them.
  
  And no, not everything on that list is possible with today's technology, especially with battery technology being a limiting factor. There is nothing on the horizon that is better than Li-ion (size, weight, cost). It's basic chemistry. And yet, you want more processing power to handle more MP, a higher frame rate AND 500+ shots in the same envelope as a A7R?

 

[Sella174]

So to get 'em camera makers going, here's what I want ...

If Canon brought THAT to market right now, I'd be buying my first camera in nearly five years. Hey, make that two of 'em babies. As it stands, based on the rumours, that upcoming Fujifilm X-T1 looks so inviting with its weather-sealed body.

 

[mackguyver]

So to get 'em camera makers going, here's what I want ...

If Canon brought THAT to market right now, I'd be buying my first camera in nearly five years. Hey, make that two of 'em babies. As it stands, based on the rumours, that upcoming Fujifilm X-T1 looks so inviting with its weather-sealed body.

It does look pretty cool and if it's as quick & responsive as their touting, it should be an interesting camera. It's not exactly cheap, though.

 

[Cinto]

http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2014/jan/22/sugar-battery-green-powered-gadgets-three-years
New batteries types may be coming pretty soon.

 

[Random Orbits]

http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2014/jan/22/sugar-battery-green-powered-gadgets-three-years
New batteries types may be coming pretty soon.

Interesting, but there is no way that it will be available in 3 years. When in college, I remember the rage was in using peizos as an way to generate bio-energy or using micro-engines to power laptops using gasoline. There was money in that type of research but those ideas have largely gone nowhere.

 

[Rienzphotoz]

photographers will upgrade from their fat old mirrorslappers of yesteryear to 21st century cameras. ;D 8)

That comment reminded me of this 2 year old video from Digitalrev (only from 4:52mins to 6:42mins) ... cheers.
Before, someone posts any hate/confrontational comments, please note that this is just for entertainment and NOT meant to bash DSLR cameras or sing glory songs about mirrorless cameras - coz each of them have their own place, time & purpose... peace.
DSLR vs Mirrorless - which is better?

 

[Woody]

Canon is updating their non-L primes to IS versions only. No choice. The user pays for IS whether or not it is required. Why?

(a) To save on design cost. (b) The old non-IS version remains available. (c) The new IS version is optically superior, has extra functionality and no weight penalty. So, why not?

 

[tolusina]

Well, there you go then, sounds like you are volunteering, you're it. You make it, whatever it is you want.

Rules of the consumer market are other way round.

I, the (potential) customer know, what I want. Very preciely, since I am an experienced customer. Any company able to build something meeting all or most of my expectations may show me what they got and nicely ask me whether I am willing to buy.

So to get 'em camera makers going, here's what I want:

• a mirrorless interchangable lens camera
• not bulkier or heavier than the Sony A7R
• clean, non "retro" styling and UI. 1 wheel front, 1 wheel back, 1 multifunction ring around lens mount, 1 locked mode dial, no top display, 1 shutter release, 1 on/off switch, 1 Back-AF button, 4 buttons top right for ISO, Drive Mode, Metering mode, AF-mode]
  • nice and strong mag-alloy body shell, IP 67 ingress-protected against dust and liquids
  • with a 36x24mm sensor and assorted electronic circuitry yielding
  • 30+ MP and image quality at ISO up to 1600 as good as or better than Nikon D800
  • IQ at ISO 3200-12800 as good as or better than EOS 6D
  • AF-performance, star-up, shot-to-shot-times and frame rate (6fps) at least as good as 5D III
  • an EVF that is one notch better in resoultion and lag than the one in Sony A7/R
  • fully working Eye Control Focus 2.0 - allowing control of hybrid PD/CD-AF system in EVF
  • 100% mechanics-free, absolutely silent and totally vibration-free shutter
  • WiFi allowing full remote control and capture over iGadgets, Android-devices and other WiFI enabled gear
  • wireless RT radio flash commander built in including 2nd curtain sync and control over speedlite zoom reflector
  • pop-up fill flash built in
  • truly useful AF-assist light projecting near-infrared laser grid as found in Sony DSC F-808
  • GPS logger built in
  • fully articulated 300+ dpi 3+" touchscreen display at back, fully visible even in direct, strong sunlight
  • all liveview-controls and playback controls as context-aware soft keys on touch screen
  • menu system like 5D III
  • 500+ shots with one battery charge
  • in-body-stabilizer working at least as good as Oly's OMD1's
  • at a launch price of max. 2499 Euros [2999 USD]
  • plus chargeable options: full-HD video @ 500 USD
  • 4k 120fps video ... @5000 USD extra charge
  • direct upload to facebook, flickr, twitter, instagram, Canon image gateway, NSA-cloud server ... @ 99 USD/monthly subscription charge .. per service
  • soundfile with mirrorslpa/shutter noise ... as low as 1,99 [meek and feeble EOS 1000D sound] up to 9,99 [1D-X or thunder-like Nikon F3 slap] - per download
  plus a starting lineup of well-performing. small, light and affordable native short flange-distance lenses:
  • 3 fix focals as small as possible, as good and as cheap as the existing EF 40/2.8:
  • 20mm/4.0
  • 40mm/2.8
  • 85mm/2.8
  • Plus one good, but also compact and reaonably priced walkaround standard zoom 24-70/4.0.
  • and an EF lens adaptor letting me use my existing EF lenses without any compromise in functionality or IQ whatsoever
  • All of the new lenses AF-only, no manual focus gear, no manual focus ring, but with independently certified IP67-grade sealing.
  Everything possible using today's technology. As soon as CaNikon are going to offer products like these, the ratio of mirrorless vs. DSLRs will turn around in a few years. And camera makers will be saved from extinction one more time, as 99.9% of serious photographers will upgrade from their fat old mirrorslappers of yesteryear to 21st century cameras. ;D 8)
  [/l][/l]

• 
  Oh, I know, I know. Kind of like, "Hey, where's my flying car already?"
  I guess you're not buying a camera this year then.
  
  
  

 

[Sella174]

Canon is updating their non-L primes to IS versions only. No choice. The user pays for IS whether or not it is required. Why?

(a) To save on design cost. (b) The old non-IS version remains available. (c) The new IS version is optically superior, has extra functionality and no weight penalty. So, why not?

(a) All those primes are pretty basic designs, which have mostly been perfected since the 1970's. If Canon can design the 200-400mm lens, then a 35mm f/2 is junior designer stuff. (b) AFAIK, the old "ugly ducklings" are discontinued. (c) The IS versions are optically superior to their respective predecessors, but see my reply (a).

"So why not?" Because Canon is "forcing" me to pay for features that I do not want ... I have no choice.