Canon announces development of the EOS R5 full-frame mirrorless camera

[Michael Clark]

That second part of what you said. That. They WILL happen. No question. But yes, the FF line gets fleshed out first. We have Crop DSLR EF mount cameras now. We will have Crop RF MILCs to replace them

We have crop mirrorless Canon bodies now, and have had them for some time. It's called the EOS M series.

 

[Sharlin]

8K query. So the flagship 1Dx doesn't do i8K at 20 mp but the R5 can at 45 mp. Is it harder to generate 8K at lower megapixels or easier?

I think it would be good for you to think for a bit about what you’re asking and engage in some basic third-grade pen&paper arithmetic. Or use a calculator if you have to.

 

[ahsanford]

Can anyone guess what the crop factor will be on video at 4k? I am hoping for no crop. If on 8k it is 1.6x, at 6k 1.2x, then perhaps at 4k no crop? I am not at all knowledgeable about this... So any guesses?

You need the basic resolution of the video from the sensor to hit a specific video res. So it's the other way around from the way you have it.

For 8K in a 16:9 ratio captured on a 3:2 sensor, you need a 39-45 MP sensor (there are a few different 8K formats apparently) so you'll use just about the whole damn sensor to get that video resolution. Most people are assuming that Canon will more or less do the minimum necessary to reach 8K, we're means the R5 will have a 39-45 MP sensor and 8K will have little to no crop at all.

For 4K, they clearly don't need 39-45 MP on the sensor. So I'd assume that Canon has to choose to go with a pretty healthy crop (which is less heavy computationally to do, but it annoyingly changes your lens' FOV) or avoid a crop and do a lot of data handling to bin/sample/process the entire frame. Either, in theory, are possible, but having your FOV change when you drop from 8K to 4K would be kind of annoying, right?

(Video nerds: do I get a passing grade there?)

- A

 

[Joules]

What modes have what limits beyond that is anyone's guess:
- I am not expecting anything RAW
- Likely 10bit 4:2:2 C-Log with 2 H.265 compression options for most modes
- I expect DPAF to work in 8/4K 30fps. Maybe 60fps. Unlikely 120fps.

Since you mentioned the confusion about technology yourself, you sound like you know your thing. But I can't imagine the 8K 30p being anything other than RAW. What leads you to believe the opposite?

When the data comes off the sensor, it is RAW data. To change it to something else, a computationally expensive compression step would have to follow, that adds additional hardware requirements and produces heat. Just dumping the RAW to the memory card is the easier option. That's why Magic Lantern has been able to offer that for years (Yes, the new bodies are not supported).

If Canon had a way to deal with these issues, why is the 5.5K on the 1DX III only available in RAW?

 

[ahsanford]

Based on some comments, one would thing that all the mirrorless negatives have evaporated, almost overnight. How is this possible? I think we're simply hearing enthusiasm for something many have not really fully tried/evaluated and in due course, they may be overjoyed or still somewhat frustrated. I'm sure I'll still have frustrations.

Jack

True. There's nothing on the R5 spec list that says 'shoots exactly like an SLR'. I don't say that with snark, I actually mean it. It's a mirrorless camera and they sure as hell won't lean in to what it can't do.

But I agree. Folks are pumped, myself (a long time OVF devotee) included. Specs trump limitations, it would appear.

- A

 

[Famateur]

...where are they going from here?

Some thoughts on this:

Around 1902, there was similar conjecture about invention and technology in general. The thought was, essentially, "Everything that can be invented has been invented." What followed? The next year, the Wright brothers at Kitty Hawk. After that, wireless communication, nuclear power, the internet and all the things you mentioned. I can see how it might feel similar to 1902 with cameras reaching what feels like a zenith in technical capability versus what's needed to get the job done, but...

• Low-Hanging Fruit -- Add built-in wireless flash control to the camera body, or spot-metering at the AF point on non-1-Series bodies.
  
  
• Computational/Algorithmic Advancements -- There's a whole new world of innovation (particularly in computational photography) waiting to be applied to professional camera systems. Advancements in AF tracking (the "deep learning" that Canon unveiled in the 1DXIII is just the beginning) will also keep the magic going for a good while yet.
  
  
• Sensor Breakthroughs -- Though pixels can only get so small and photons will remain constant, I still think there will be breakthroughs in low-light performance, dynamic range, or other areas that will make today seem like...well...1902, so to speak. Imagine global electronic shutters that still produce clean high-ISO and/or high dynamic range images. Frame rates could be such that (given adequate light for such speeds) one could shoot a video burst, then select the desired high-res image that's perfectly timed (there are people doing this in the studio right now pulling 4K frame grabs, but this would be light years better).
  
  
• Connectivity/Integration -- In April, Canon will launch its cloud platform "image.canon." What makes this interesting to me is that its a short-term storage solution (a data way point, if you will, on its journey to wherever it will ultimately reside). Canon doesn't have to worry about housing it indefinitely, because after 30 days, it's gone. Before then, though, the photos can be forwarded to permanent storage solutions. This can provide data redundancy/security as well as automation in workflows for professionals. Now imagine that this was transmitted straight from the camera to the cloud (5G cellular, or similar tech).
  
  
• Licensing -- Requiring everyone to switch from "perpetual license" bodies and lenses to a subscription model...wait...

I can totally understand wondering what could possibly come next, but I'm optimistic that engineers will continue to develop new and meaningful advancements that today would blow our minds.

 

[ahsanford]

I think you're seeing two things:
- If you're not interested in mirrorless you're probably not hanging out in this thread.
- There are a lot of folks who have said things like "all things being equal I'd rather have an OVF" But this camera isn't "equal" a 5D5 isn't going to have 12fps mechanical with a mirror actuating up and down—that's probably sticking to the 1 series.

Disagree slightly. We'll get 9 or 10 fps with a mirror in a 5D5 I'd bet -- they need 5D4 people to buy these, and a modest bump makes sense. In SLR/OVF mode a 5D5 won't be a line for line match of the R5. But once the mirror is up, I believe it will be (if you don't mind doing your work through the screen instead of the VF).

- A

 

[Michael Clark]

It’s a $700 difference

That's for the G2 (Generation 2). You can still find copies of the SP 24-70mm f/2.8 Di VC ("G1") for barely half the price of the G2.

 

[reef58]

I think you're seeing two things:
- If you're not interested in mirrorless you're probably not hanging out in this thread.
- There are a lot of folks who have said things like "all things being equal I'd rather have an OVF" But this camera isn't "equal" a 5D5 isn't going to have 12fps mechanical with a mirror actuating up and down—that's probably sticking to the 1 series.

I am kinda of in the camp. I have nothing against mirrorless and for some time have planned to pick up the mega pixel monster which has been rumored. My plans for that is landscape and studio work. I also own an M50 and think it is a great little camera as was my Olympus m4/3rd. That being said I do not see myself giving up the OVF on the 1D cameras for wildlife and some action stuff. At some point they will make an EVF you can look through, or maybe a hybrid. Other than that I embrace mirrorless, but understand there are still issues, so I am not convinced DSLR's are DOA.

I am also puzzled why some people say things like it is time for DSLR's to go. It is like they are personally offended by the existence of the DSLR. I find that odd to put it nicely.

 

[Michael Clark]

In my noob days I'd use a lens hood to protect my lens because the camera magazines told me to. Got tired of that quick enough and for the past 50 years I've relied only on UV filters. Never a problem.

I shoot too much in dark places with bright light sources inside the field of view to get away with "protective" filters that can sometimes cause more harm than good if an impact or drop actually happens. So the only time I use them is if I'm shooting in blowing sand, saltwater spray, or an industrial environment that has hot metal particles or similar flying through the air.

I've been shooting with "naked" lenses and hoods for over a decade and have never needed to get a front element replaced. On the other hand, I've replaced more than a few hoods and some of the ones I still use have battle scars and paint scrapes on them.

 

[Talys]

I think you're seeing two things:
- If you're not interested in mirrorless you're probably not hanging out in this thread.
- There are a lot of folks who have said things like "all things being equal I'd rather have an OVF" But this camera isn't "equal" a 5D5 isn't going to have 12fps mechanical with a mirror actuating up and down—that's probably sticking to the 1 series.

I now have a bunch of mirrorless cameras ranging from R to a Sony I bought from a friend who wanted to get rid of his A7R3. I also have lot of OVF including a 6D2 80D and 90D.

The truth is, I have forum discussion fatigue and I don't really care enough what people like, want to use, or whatever to keep posting about it ad nauseam. For my purposes, I use my 80D/90D way more than anything else, and mirrorless has been an unnessesary, fun and expensive diversion for me

That doesn't mean I regret spending money on it, and it doesn't mean I won't buy more mirrored or mirrorless cameras or that any of my positions have changed much in the last year... I'm just tired of posting about it

The R5 looks like a marvelous camera and I probably won't be able to escape buying one, not because it will help me take better pictures, but becauseit sounds like a dreamy camera with all the great things I love about various other cameras rolled into one. Hey at least I'm honest, right?

 

[slclick]

Excellent post -- I appreciate your perspective.

Pivot to CR Guy's own words:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1223721066041892864

...and recognize there has to be (at a brand/segment level) some sort a tipping point to leave mirrors, Canon will know when it is, and Canon will have a plan to get to the future state.

A purge of mirrored product lines is coming. I see the crop SLR lines and less unit-moving FF SLRs going early and the bread and butter pro stuff with high L lens pullthrough going late. 'Early' is already happening (remember the 760D/77D line? will we ever see a 7D3?). But when 'late' is happening -- when they start killing off the characters I really like on this show -- is a big TBD.

- A

I totally agree with you both, I can only see the 1, 5 and Rebel series keeping mirrors for now, everything else (xxxD, xxd) is most likely going to be having a logical lateral or minor upgrade with an ML equivalent in body size and specs. Yet only if the M line continues to mature.Perhaps we will see a reduction in total models, maybe down to 1, 5, R, Rebel and M.

 

[slclick]

Totally off topic, but you… look very different from what my mental image has been.

Not me, I see him just like that and with Yennefer at his side in his dreams

 

[ahsanford]

I am also puzzled why some people say things like it is time for DSLR's to go. It is like they are personally offended by the existence of the DSLR. I find that odd to put it nicely.

I know what you mean, but I'm in a middle group: I love SLRs and prefer an OVF... but I concede that their days are numbered.

Canon won't rip them away from us or put a gun to our head as unfocused said, but they also don't have to put many more new ones out there, or release them as quickly as they release mirrorless.

Mirrors will go away except for the most demanding / discerning veteran shooters. 1-series may have a new SLR design for 10 more Olympics cycles, and 5-series will surely get a 5D5 and perhaps a 5D6. But I wouldn't hold my breath on the others. We might see the last new mirrored APS-C ever get released in the next 3-5 years.

I think everyone here concedes the transition is coming. We just spend a lot of time speculating when and which product lines go mirrorless only first.

- A

 

[Michael Clark]

Again, that is where the third ring comes into use, increase the ISO and hope for the best. There is a limit to how much one can demand from a digital sensor. It can't take fast moving object is total darkness.

No matter how much shorter exposure time you can get out of raising the ISO, you can get that much more with raising to the same ISO and also opening up the aperture, assuming you can open up the aperture.

 

[ahsanford]

Perhaps we will see a reduction in total models, maybe down to 1, 5, R, Rebel and M.

Total number of ILC product lines will probably go up before they go down. Canon's about to add 3-4 new ones of the RF persuasion before they tell the world their 90D, 7D2 will never get sequeled.

Migrating folks need a harbor in mind before they make the voyage, right?

- A

 

[slclick]

Total number of ILC product lines will probably go up before they go down. Canon's about to add 3-4 new ones of the RF persuasion before they tell the world their 90D, 7D2 will never get sequeled.

Migrating folks need a harbor in mind before they make the voyage, right?

- A

My R meant RF which is a LOT of models in a line very soon it looks like.

 

[davo]

I think it would be good for you to think for a bit about what you’re asking and engage in some basic third-grade pen&paper arithmetic. Or use a calculator if you have to.

That was quite rude....but my gut instinct has always been smaller files put less on the processor and it would easier to do 8k upto a certain point but that thinking is not correct I am gathering. Don't bother replying please unless you can less dickish

 

[Sharlin]

Not me, I see him just like that and with Yennefer at his side in his dreams

Yennefer? Is that a code name for the EF 50mm f/1.4L IS USM?

 

[Sharlin]

That was quite rude....but my gut instinct has always been smaller files put less on the processor and it would easier to do 8k upto a certain point but that thinking is not correct I am gathering.

8K literally means ~8000 (either 8192 or 7680 depending on who you ask) horizontal pixels. If your sensor does not have at least that number of horizontal pixels, you cannot record 8K by definition. Simple as that.