Canon Confirms 70D; Future of Semi-Pro DSLR is FF

[dstppy]

Personally, Canon...if you are listening....Keep semi-pro APS-C. I'll buy a high quality 7DII as soon as it is available for pre-order.

Even if it's just the same old 7D with built-in GPS, WiFi, new CPU and extra SD slot?

DigicV+ and tight/wide MFA?

absolutely

Everything else is just gravy.

 

[pedro]

Hi CR folks

I think people should not be reading more into what Masaya said than what he ACTUALLY said. Remember, the unquoted parts of that interview are simply DPReview's 'take' on it... nothing more (and nothing less, I have respect for DPReview). Quite a bit of what is written in this post assumes incorrectly.

What Masaya actually said about 70D and/or 7DmkII in the interview is very little, and not concrete about those models nor related to the possibility of which models will still be produced, and when, etc, but rather he is talking about market segmentation. ???

So, careful and critical reading and analysis of what Masaya said specifically regarding APS-C and 70D / 7DmkII is required. His words are in bold in this part of that link / article, which I'm copying & highlighting below:

DPR: ... the future of APS-C at the semi-pro level is in doubt, he says:
'That's something we're considering at the moment. From our semi-pro users there's still demand for APS-C but in the future, I think we will see an increase in the number of full-frame models.'
DPR: Either way, that doesn't close the door on an EOS 70D though - when asked when we can expect one, Maeda promises: 'some day in the future. Without fail.

I'm a manager in the Australian Government, and part of my job is to write very specific documentation / policy and to read critically. (I'm not trying to boast, just applying some of my skills here).

So, my take on what Masaya actually says is as follows:
- Canon realises a significant proportion of semi-pros currently demand APS-C
- In the future, Canon believes there will possibly be more demand from semi-pros for FF
- That doesn't mean some or many semi-pros will still want / prefer / need / demand an APS-C
- Which in turn means that Canon needs to determine how to market future models like 70D and 7DmkII
- the feature set and segment positioning of the 70D (& 7DmkII) might be quite determined by the 700D / entry level Canon APS-C DLSRs
- A 7DmkII is still likely on the cards. I think planning, research & development of the 7DmkII has happened some years ago, and R&D are being finalised soon - then ready for production (nowhere does Masaya hint that a 7DmkII is off the cards)
- the 7D has been a popular and long-living successful camera for Canon (ie good profit). I think Canon realise if they create another successful, and perhaps 'noticably improved in some aspects' 7DmkII, they can get a lot of mileage out of it, that is: good profit again.
- Canon is smart and would be very conscious about brand loyalty, and if they remove a 'top of the line APS-C, while the competition offer good top of the line APS-C sized DSLRs, then some folk who don't want to (or can't afford) the jump to FF, may go to other brands.
- equivalent FF lenses are often significantly more expensive than APS-C (when I write 'equivalent' - I mainly mean in terms of 'effective' focal length. (I do realise there are many other aspects to be considered than focal length, but I don't want to write pages here on that!)

Well... feel free to comment on what I've written and determined from the interview!

Totally apart from DPReview's interview - I believe we'll see some high level APS-C cameras. There are serious Canon EF-S lenses (eg 15-85mm, 17-55mm, 10-22mm, 60mm macro, etc) and many EF lenses (eg 70-300mm L, 100mm macro, etc) that just work so well on APS-C too!

Cheers and regards. Wishing all a wonderful weekend... it's Friday evening here in Australia! YAY!! 8)

Paul

thanks pj for these informations and your hermeneutics on it. So what Canon could do with a 7DII is to equip it with the 6Ds FF sensor and built in 1.6 crop mode, improve the weather sealing and they're done. Anyone?

 

[AprilForever]

There is no reason not to have FF cameras except production cost. that will be solved in the future and hopefully all cameras will be FF. Tough i guess APS-C will still always be around. I mean "back in the days" everybody was fine with 35mm film also

A good step Canon Just get 1.4TC for reach...

It will always be cheaper to use APS-C than ff. 12 fps full frame? 6000 bucks. Hopefully we will see a APS-C 7D mk II at 12 or 10 fps at no more than 2500...

 

[neuroanatomist]

PJ1974 - I think you're right, people often read between the lines and see something completely subjective.

+1 - when a corporate talking head makes statements like, "'That's something we're considering at the moment. From our semi-pro users there's still demand for APS-C but in the future, I think we will see an increase in the number of full-frame models,'" the 'in the future' part is very forward-looking, and it could be years before that becomes reality.

IIRC, Canon stated several years ago that their goal was eventually move to all full frame sensors. Eventually, as in 'some day' - we're still pretty far from that day, IMO.

This interview is nowhere close to a 'nail in the coffin' for a 7D Mark II - I think we'll see both a 70D and a 7D Mark II this year, and both will be APS-C.

 

[insanitybeard]

I know this is all conjecture, but it would really surprise me if Canon did not look to refresh and continue the 7D line, surely the 7D has been too successful to consign to history. From a marketing point of view, it would be a giant gamble on Canon's part to discontinue one of their best selling camera bodies based on the logic that it would force potential 7D customers to go full frame, unless full frame bodies- and glass- become cheap enough to be a viable alternative. In the current economic climate, most people only have a finite amount of money to spend on what for many is a hobby.

 

[Don Haines]

This interview is nowhere close to a 'nail in the coffin' for a 7D Mark II - I think we'll see both a 70D and a 7D Mark II this year, and both will be APS-C.

I believe he said "'some day in the future. Without fail". I agree.... that's nowhere near " a nail in the coffin".

This forum seems to constantly breaking down into diatribes about the superiority of FF and how APS-C produces inferior results, and completely misses the point. The vast number of consumers are NOT going to shell out the money to purchase the latest and greatest cameras and lenses, they are happy with good value for the dollar. If a company delivers good value for the dollar to the mass market, then they will survive. Canon is represented across the camera spectrum with many different models and capacities. If a segment of that spectrum is selling well, they are not going to shut it down and force those consumers to go elsewhere.

We members of this forum are not the typical market.... how many of us have spent over $1000 for a lens? How many of the masses will not spend $500? We are like race car drivers who bitterly complain that economy cars do not have 1000hp motors...... a disconnect from reality.

 

[sandymandy]

flawed logic.. you will always have more reach with a crop and a 1.4 TC.

And how many people are actually using a 1.4TC on an APS-C body? Its quite rare imho. I can also say add more n more extension rings if u just care about reach....flawed logic


Only advantage of APS-C is reach and price. But u dont have to save a lot more to get a better FF body than the endlevel APS-C. Yes, i hate APS-C or anything smaller than FF Still using it tough :
I just think there are too many Canon DSLR models and levels. They should have entry, advanced and pro. Why there is like super entry (xxxxD), normal entry (xxxD), upper entry (xxD) advanced (7D) upper advance (6D) end Advanced (5D) and pro (1dX)? Its just too many imho. And all APS-C produce the same image quality. mostly the rebels even produce better images then the 7D cuz they get updated more often :
I would NEVER get a 7D if it gives the same IQ as the cheapest DSLR from Canon. Paying so much money just for a better body material is ridicoulus imho. Or wow 10 FPS? Press and pray is not my style... If i wanna be somewhat professional id at least get a 5D.

 

[unfocused]

Paul (PJ1974), Honsten and Neuro,

I'm with you guys. This is a very brief and vague interview. I took the references to APS-C as meaning "our crystal ball is in the shop. We are watching the market and it may be that some day, the niche now filled by semi-pro APS-C might be replaced by full-frame, but we don't know that yet."

On the other hand, I want to rant about about the photo news media. I don't understand why industry writers have to be such sycophants. They never ask the tough questions of these executives, but instead behave like a bunch of lap dogs letting these executives sail through the interviews with softball questions.

Almost anyone who comments on this forum could have asked better questions:

The street price of the 5DIII has dropped to below $3,000 since introduction. Was your market research wrong when you originally priced the 5DIII, did you underestimate the competition, or was this a conscious strategy to maximize return on early adopters?

Canon seems to be pricing its latest lenses at stratospheric levels. What's your target market for these lenses?

Your APS-C sensor is now more than three years old. Many are questioning whether or not Canon has the engineering bench strength to compete with other manufacturers and innovate in sensor development. What's your response?

The 6D has been criticized as being under-spec'd in comparison to Nikon's D600. Are you concerned about that?

The list could go on and on, but instead, we get a tiny little interview completely dictated by the corporate messengers.

 

[Don Haines]

Press and pray is not my style... If i wanna be somewhat professional id at least get a 5D.

I find "press and pray" to be a very derogatory reference to a very usefull tool.

Follow this scenario....
On the riverbank we have three people taking pictures of a osprey fishing. We have Neuro, with a 1DX and 600mm lens, we have me with a 1Dx and a 600mm lens, and we have my neice with a point/shoot.... Neuro has the presence of mind (and probably has scans to prove it ) to set his camera for burst mode at 10 frames per second... I rely on pushing the shutter quickly, and my neice has to wait a few seconds between pictures......

The Osprey swoops down and snatches up a fish...... Neuro has about 15 shots to choose from as the fish is picked up out of the water.... I have 3 or 4.... my neice gets one from a second after the grab. Who do you think got the nicest shot?.... And as an asside, who do you think is going to be the most excited and happiest with thier picture?

 

[docsmith]

Personally, Canon...if you are listening....Keep semi-pro APS-C. I'll buy a high quality 7DII as soon as it is available for pre-order.

Even if it's just the same old 7D with built-in GPS, WiFi, new CPU and extra SD slot?

No, by "High Quality" I am refering to other improvements. I'd like it to be slightly sharper, better performance at low ISO and hopefully some improved performance at higher ISO.

Regarding the 5DIII price, just look at the value of the yen. February 2012 it was trading at ~75 yen per $1 USD. Now it is trading at ~92 yen per $1 USD. Since I don't know what BH or Adorama actually paid for a 5DIII, I'll use the street price. The $3,500 paid for a 5DIII in February 2012 netted Canon 262,500 yen. Assuming 262,500 yen is the "factory price" of a 5DIII, Canon is getting the same 262,500 yen for $2,850 USD today.

Combine that with most new items dropping after initial release and you have today's sub $3k 5DIII.

Honestly, even though we are paying less (sub $3k) for a 5DIII right now, Canon may be making the same or even a little more of a profit now than last year. That is the power of the devaluation of the yen. Now, think about lenses. Those prices haven't gone down. Canon should be doing pretty well there right now.

 

[AprilForever]

flawed logic.. you will always have more reach with a crop and a 1.4 TC.

And how many people are actually using a 1.4TC on an APS-C body? Its quite rare imho. I can also say add more n more extension rings if u just care about reach....flawed logic


Only advantage of APS-C is reach and price. But u dont have to save a lot more to get a better FF body than the endlevel APS-C. Yes, i hate APS-C or anything smaller than FF Still using it tough :
I just think there are too many Canon DSLR models and levels. They should have entry, advanced and pro. Why there is like super entry (xxxxD), normal entry (xxxD), upper entry (xxD) advanced (7D) upper advance (6D) end Advanced (5D) and pro (1dX)? Its just too many imho. And all APS-C produce the same image quality. mostly the rebels even produce better images then the 7D cuz they get updated more often :
I would NEVER get a 7D if it gives the same IQ as the cheapest DSLR from Canon. Paying so much money just for a better body material is ridicoulus imho. Or wow 10 FPS? Press and pray is not my style... If i wanna be somewhat professional id at least get a 5D.

A LOT of people use a TC on a APS-C body... I do all the time, both 1.4 and 2x, and have done so for a while. Many people have...

 

[distant.star]

I want to rant about about the photo news media. I don't understand why industry writers have to be such sycophants. They never ask the tough questions of these executives, but instead behave like a bunch of lap dogs letting these executives sail through the interviews with softball questions.

Almost anyone who comments on this forum could have asked better questions.

It's probably a reach to consider staff at DPReview "industry writers" or media or journalists at all. Owned by Amazon, they are simply part of the marketing system designed to make people want their products. And in my reading, I haven't seen any of them that could write their way past a decent managing editor on any legitimate publication anyway.

I've agreed with and made the same point about genuine journalism in the photography equipment world. The only two sources of objective, informed information are Big Brain (neuro) here and Roger at Lens Rentals. Much as I respect them, that makes for a damn lame world of broad photo equipment journalism. How many consumers are going to find their way to those two sources?

That said, there are two things in that interview that impress me.

First, the corporate portrait. That is as perfect a headshot as I've ever seen -- and exactly the kind of perfection I'd expect to see from Canon. Imagine being the photographer charged with doing their management headshots!

Second is this statement: "My idea is that, if you increase the size, you go with APS-C - that's the architecture that allows low light performance. That was the reason I put an APS-C sensor in the PowerShot G1 X and the EOS M - for the time being, that's the standard."

He is actually saying HE is the one who did this. I can't recall a corp exec ever putting himself "on front street" (as my 12-step friends call it) before. He has stepped outside both corporate norms as well as the whole of Japanese culture with this statement, so I find it startling. If he had said "we" did it, that would have been the usual corp drivel I'd expect. And, honestly, without that, I wouldn't even have commented on this. If I'd made some public statement like that when I was in the corp world, I'd have been raked over the coals for "being off the reservation."

Also, interesting that his two APS-C installations seem to go nowhere. At least in the west the M seems to be a dud. And as I've said before when I asked the camera staff in a local (Philadelphia area) Best Buy store about the G1X, they'd never heard of it -- had no idea any such thing existed.

 

[Marsu42]

It's probably a reach to consider staff at DPReview "industry writers" or media or journalists at all. Owned by Amazon, they are simply part of the marketing system designed to make people want their products.

Good to know, maybe this is the reason they seem to be delaying their full 6d review indefinitely (just the af performance test is missing)? They probably have a hard time deciding between sugar-coating it or looking for a new job :->

 

[rpt]

Press and pray is not my style... If i wanna be somewhat professional id at least get a 5D.

I find "press and pray" to be a very derogatory reference to a very usefull tool.

Follow this scenario....
On the riverbank we have three people taking pictures of a osprey fishing. We have Neuro, with a 1DX and 600mm lens, we have me with a 1Dx and a 600mm lens, and we have my neice with a point/shoot.... Neuro has the presence of mind (and probably has scans to prove it ) to set his camera for burst mode at 10 frames per second... I rely on pushing the shutter quickly, and my neice has to wait a few seconds between pictures......

The Osprey swoops down and snatches up a fish...... Neuro has about 15 shots to choose from as the fish is picked up out of the water.... I have 3 or 4.... my neice gets one from a second after the grab. Who do you think got the nicest shot?.... And as an asside, who do you think is going to be the most excited and happiest with thier picture?

Who cares! I am downstream (in the line of the bird's flight). I have an assault rifle. I shoot the bird. I have a charcoal grill ready and primed. I marinate both (after removing the feathers and descaling etc.). I grill them. Now I get to eat the bird and the fish!

<SARCASM/>
Yes!

 

[Sporgon]

I was really surprised by the amount of ringside press using 7Ds at the London Olympics.

A lot of posters on CR give the impression that they think if you're a pro you can afford anything camera wise. That may be true if the photog's employers supply the equipment, but many are not in that boat.

Canon marketing research will know exactly how the land lies regarding current and near future demand for a fast, professional APS. If there's a demand they'll supply it.

 

[Peerke]

The increased interest of prosumers for FF camera will not be caused by Canon not making crop anymore, but by Canon making much cheaper FF in the (far) future.

That is how I read the words.

I like to be positive 8).

 

[Marsu42]

The increased interest of prosumers for FF camera will not be caused by Canon not making crop anymore, but by Canon making much cheaper FF in the (far) future.

In this case, they'd better start making cheap ef lenses, too - people might want some tele lens offers that are sharp *and* don't cost 3x-5x the price of the camera body...

 

[unfocused]

I was really surprised by the amount of ringside press using 7Ds at the London Olympics.

A lot of posters on CR give the impression that they think if you're a pro you can afford anything camera wise. That may be true if the photog's employers supply the equipment, but many are not in that boat.

Canon marketing research will know exactly how the land lies regarding current and near future demand for a fast, professional APS. If there's a demand they'll supply it.

Yes, this is a point that few people understand. It's been many, many years since I was a newspaper photographer, but some things have either not changed, or changed for the worse.

Most photojournalists have to supply their own equipment. Even if their employer has some equipment available, it is often just the bare minimum and not up to date. These days, there are fewer and fewer media outlets (hardly any independent papers today) sharing fewer and fewer resources. Staff photographers are among the first jobs that get cut as there are always freelancers out there willing to work for less.

Freelancers, of course, have to supply their own equipment and that often means buying the least that will do the job.

 

[c-law]

First, the corporate portrait. That is as perfect a headshot as I've ever seen -- and exactly the kind of perfection I'd expect to see from Canon. Imagine being the photographer charged with doing their management headshots!

I downloaded the file and notice that all the metadata was stripped from the photo.

I wonder what camera was used to take it?

 

[rpt]

First, the corporate portrait. That is as perfect a headshot as I've ever seen -- and exactly the kind of perfection I'd expect to see from Canon. Imagine being the photographer charged with doing their management headshots!

I downloaded the file and notice that all the metadata was stripped from the photo.

I wonder what camera was used to take it?

Nokia cell phone