Canon EOS 6D Mark II Talk & Updated Roadmap [CR2]

[symmar22]

the 5Ds, for which there are rumors of it being replaced this year.

Are you trying to start a new rumor? I'd put this at a rating of CR negative 1.

No. It was a rumor (rated CR1) on CR a while ago and has been mentioned elsewhere too.

An update of the 5D3 -> 5D4 in effect also brings with it a 5Ds upgrade.

The 5Ds went into an "old body".

Sounds logic, when every camera in the line-up gets the new sensor with improved DR, it doesn't make sense that the only one with the (almost) DR and noise level from 10 years ago is the one dedicated to the highest image quality. Looks like the 5Ds/r will have a very short lifespan, IMO it will be more difficult to sell once the 5D4 is available. An old sensor technology in a 5d3 body won't do any more.

Plus 24 Mpx only in the 5D4 will be disappointing for some (me included), one could have hoped for a slight increase, I still think that Sony or Nikon are right in making a stronger sensor differentiation within their range. In the end, once again, all Canon full frame will have the same resolution again (20-24mpx) except the 5DS/R and its old(er) sensor tech.

I am fearing that the 5D4 resolution looks very old school in 3-4 years, and am really hoping they go around 30Mpx.

 

[scyrene]

...
Your English is fine, it's your opinions that are the problem.
....

A person can have whatever opinion they so wish. You can't tell someone that doesn't like blue that their opinion of the color blue is wrong.

But is that a correct analogy? If someone says 'a blue car can't go as fast as a red one' then their opinion is wrong (unless they can support it with evidence, which is unlikely in this case).

The opinions weren't 'I don't like Canon', they were e.g. 'the 1DxII doesn't have any more DR than older Canon cameras', and the prediction that the new 6D won't either. The first is demonstrably incorrect, and the latter is unlikely given what we've seen of the last two releases (the 1DxII and the 80D).

I know you think that all opinions are equally valid, but as other have pointed out to you, that's just wrong. Everyone can - and has every right to - hold any opinion they like. But that does not make them all equally true or valuable. Opinions based on evidence are superior to opinions that are contradicted by evidence.

 

[LoneRider]

I am fearing that the 5D4 resolution looks very old school in 3-4 years, and am really hoping they go around 30Mpx.

If full frame width 4K video is a priority, that may dictate sensor resolution in regards to scaling.

So, here is a debate, what does product management work on first, 5DS-ii or 6D-ii??

And if the successor of the 5DS does not get DPAF (which I would suspect it won't), and the 5D-iv does, do you call that successor the 4D?

 

[d]

Looks like the 5Ds/r will have a very short lifespan, IMO it will be more difficult to sell once the 5D4 is available. An old sensor technology in a 5d3 body won't do any more.

Plus 24 Mpx only in the 5D4 will be disappointing for some (me included), one could have hoped for a slight increase, I still think that Sony or Nikon are right in making a stronger sensor differentiation within their range. In the end, once again, all Canon full frame will have the same resolution again (20-24mpx) except the 5DS/R and its old(er) sensor tech.

I am fearing that the 5D4 resolution looks very old school in 3-4 years, and am really hoping they go around 30Mpx.

I fail to see how a 24-30MP 5D4 is going to displace or grossly affect the 5DS models - their sensors are perfectly fine for their intended purposes.

Likewise you're splitting hairs worrying about a 5D4 having 24MP instead of 30MP - that's a tiny difference in practical terms, and either would likely seem "archaic" in four years time, if that's the perspective you take.

d.

 

[symmar22]

Looks like the 5Ds/r will have a very short lifespan, IMO it will be more difficult to sell once the 5D4 is available. An old sensor technology in a 5d3 body won't do any more.

Plus 24 Mpx only in the 5D4 will be disappointing for some (me included), one could have hoped for a slight increase, I still think that Sony or Nikon are right in making a stronger sensor differentiation within their range. In the end, once again, all Canon full frame will have the same resolution again (20-24mpx) except the 5DS/R and its old(er) sensor tech.

I am fearing that the 5D4 resolution looks very old school in 3-4 years, and am really hoping they go around 30Mpx.

I fail to see how a 24-30MP 5D4 is going to displace or grossly affect the 5DS models - their sensors are perfectly fine for their intended purposes.

Likewise you're splitting hairs worrying about a 5D4 having 24MP instead of 30MP - that's a tiny difference in practical terms, and either would likely seem "archaic" in four years time, if that's the perspective you take.

d.

What I meant is the 5D4, if it actually comes with a 24Mpx sensor, falls already in the "low res" for a full frame sensor in 2016, I am afraid it's not a very future proof choice. It's the perspective I take since considering Canon's refresh pace, the 5D5 shouldn't appear until 2019-20.

Personally, I would have preferred something in the 32-36Mpx range, leaving a place for a 5DS/R2 with 50-60Mpx.

My point of view is that I would have loved to replace my ageing 5D2s with something with more resolution AND a more modern sensor. Looks like I'll have to wait for the 5Ds/r2.

The 5Ds is fine considering Canon's offering now, but it is supposed to be the camera that offers the best image quality for Canon. Once the whole line up will have been refreshed with the newer tech sensors, it will become some kind of oddity.

Now that Canon finally uses the on chip ADC, best image quality doesn't mean more pixels only, it also means better DR and as little noise as possible on their top image quality camera.

 

[scyrene]

...
Your English is fine, it's your opinions that are the problem.
....

A person can have whatever opinion they so wish. You can't tell someone that doesn't like blue that their opinion of the color blue is wrong.

But is that a correct analogy? If someone says 'a blue car can't go as fast as a red one' then their opinion is wrong (unless they can support it with evidence, which is unlikely in this case).

The opinions weren't 'I don't like Canon', they were e.g. 'the 1DxII doesn't have any more DR than older Canon cameras', and the prediction that the new 6D won't either. The first is demonstrably incorrect, and the latter is unlikely given what we've seen of the last two releases (the 1DxII and the 80D).

I know you think that all opinions are equally valid, but as other have pointed out to you, that's just wrong. Everyone can - and has every right to - hold any opinion they like. But that does not make them all equally true or valuable. Opinions based on evidence are superior to opinions that are contradicted by evidence.

If something can be measured (repeatedly) and a result obtained according to rules, then it isn't an opinion but more likely a fact.

At present there are no measurements (that I'm aware of) of the 80D/1DxII DR (or noise), so all that anyone can currently do is form opinions on the matter based on images they see on the web.

So does this http://www.dpreview.com/news/7168986570/canon-shows-dynamism-eos-80d-breaks-new-ground-for-canon-low-iso-dr or this http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/57460079 for example not count?

 

[Orangutan]

If someone says 'a blue car can't go as fast as a red one' then their opinion is wrong (unless they can support it with evidence, which is unlikely in this case).

If they're going fast enough, it would be factual to say the blue car is coming toward you, and the red car is going away from you.

 

[pedro]

the 5Ds, for which there are rumors of it being replaced this year.

Are you trying to start a new rumor? I'd put this at a rating of CR negative 1.

No. It was a rumor (rated CR1) on CR a while ago and has been mentioned elsewhere too.

An update of the 5D3 -> 5D4 in effect also brings with it a 5Ds upgrade.

The 5Ds went into an "old body".

Sounds logic, when every camera in the line-up gets the new sensor with improved DR, it doesn't make sense that the only one with the (almost) DR and noise level from 10 years ago is the one dedicated to the highest image quality. Looks like the 5Ds/r will have a very short lifespan, IMO it will be more difficult to sell once the 5D4 is available. An old sensor technology in a 5d3 body won't do any more.

Plus 24 Mpx only in the 5D4 will be disappointing for some (me included), one could have hoped for a slight increase, I still think that Sony or Nikon are right in making a stronger sensor differentiation within their range. In the end, once again, all Canon full frame will have the same resolution again (20-24mpx) except the 5DS/R and its old(er) sensor tech.

I am fearing that the 5D4 resolution looks very old school in 3-4 years, and am really hoping they go around 30Mpx.

I actually don't care how old school Canon sensor MP count will look in 3-4 years. I appreciate it if Canon are keeping it in the decent 20s. IIRC they stated to hold on to this policy sometime back in the day the 5DIII came out. So anyone who needs more has the 5DS/SR and I hope for these cams there will be an upgrade as late as end of 2017, with the new sensor tech implemented.

 

[FECHariot]

Looks like the 5Ds/r will have a very short lifespan, IMO it will be more difficult to sell once the 5D4 is available. An old sensor technology in a 5d3 body won't do any more.

Plus 24 Mpx only in the 5D4 will be disappointing for some (me included), one could have hoped for a slight increase, I still think that Sony or Nikon are right in making a stronger sensor differentiation within their range. In the end, once again, all Canon full frame will have the same resolution again (20-24mpx) except the 5DS/R and its old(er) sensor tech.

I am fearing that the 5D4 resolution looks very old school in 3-4 years, and am really hoping they go around 30Mpx.

I fail to see how a 24-30MP 5D4 is going to displace or grossly affect the 5DS models - their sensors are perfectly fine for their intended purposes.

Likewise you're splitting hairs worrying about a 5D4 having 24MP instead of 30MP - that's a tiny difference in practical terms, and either would likely seem "archaic" in four years time, if that's the perspective you take.

d.

What I meant is the 5D4, if it actually comes with a 24Mpx sensor, falls already in the "low res" for a full frame sensor in 2016, I am afraid it's not a very future proof choice. It's the perspective I take since considering Canon's refresh pace, the 5D5 shouldn't appear until 2019-20.

Personally, I would have preferred something in the 32-36Mpx range, leaving a place for a 5DS/R2 with 50-60Mpx.

My point of view is that I would have loved to replace my ageing 5D2s with something with more resolution AND a more modern sensor. Looks like I'll have to wait for the 5Ds/r2.

The 5Ds is fine considering Canon's offering now, but it is supposed to be the camera that offers the best image quality for Canon. Once the whole line up will have been refreshed with the newer tech sensors, it will become some kind of oddity.

Now that Canon finally uses the on chip ADC, best image quality doesn't mean more pixels only, it also means better DR and as little noise as possible on their top image quality camera.

If you give the 5D4 36mpix then the FPS will suffer. There is already the 5Ds and sR for high Mpix. Given the 5D series better AF over the 6D, I think it would make better sense to have the 6D2 be at the middle 36mpix ground and keep the FPS as high as possible but I wouldn't expect more than 4-5 FPS. On the other hand the 5D4 with 24mpix and 8-10 FPS wouldn't be 5 year old tech. Nikon is only offering 6.5 with the D750 at 24mpix. So a healthy increase in FPS wouldn't be old tech.

 

[j-nord]

I think 24mpix is a mistake unless they go big on IQ improvements and FPS. Some people would prefer this route and others prefer 7-8fps and 30ish mpix. I think Canon could go either way still but it also depends on their plans for the 6D and 5DS/R line.

 

[slclick]

In regards to the 5D4/X which is a segue from this thread's original topic...

How about if everyone gets what they want? Canon can price it accordingly...$4999


Yeah, that won't work will it (especially you guys in the give me a 1DX at 5D prices) It's Canon, it will have incremental boosts and it will take great photographs if you RTFM.

 

[ahsanford]

I think 24mpix is a mistake unless they go big on IQ improvements and FPS. Some people would prefer this route and others prefer 7-8fps and 30ish mpix. I think Canon could go either way still but it also depends on their plans for the 6D and 5DS/R line.

I think some folks (not necessarily you) are getting hung up on a number bump for MP representing clear progress in a value proposition to substantiate this major purchase & justify how much better it is. Consider: a jump from the current 22 MP to 30 MP isn't very much at all:

5D3 @22 MP = 5760 x 3840
5D4 @ 30 MP ~ 6700 x 4500

I'm not knocking the value of added resolution -- I'm just saying that squares are a b---- to scale.

I see purchasing my next rig if it demonstrably improves a limit of my current camera that I often run into. Resolution simply isn't one of those limits. Sure, I'd like more detail, but my biggest frustrations with my 5D3 are a mix of common comments you'd see here sprinkled in with some personal peculiarities:

• Shockingly, very high ISO leads to noise -- I need cleaner shots at ISO > 6400 as I shoot what's around me as it happens and I can't bring a flash or wait for better lighting in many instances.
• AFMA is annoying, not super repeatable and frustrating. I'd love that to be automated.
• I want spot metering at any AF point. Why? Because it's 2016. $500 Nikon crop SLRs have this feature.
• I often am stuck with a handheld landscape shot (say on walkabout, a hike, etc.) -- a nonscripted landscape opportunity -- that has more dynamic range that I can reel in with one exposure. I fully recognize the gulf between what a sensor can reel in vs. what our eyes can see, but any improvement would be appreciated.
• Occasionally, when shooting something of immense detail -- a city landscape for instance -- I naturally want to peer deeper into the shot and see what I can see. That is one fairly rare circumstance in which more pixels would help me.

I honestly don't think I'm getting the 5D4, though. It would have to be something comically better on the high ISO noise or low ISO DR side of things -- say two stops. I don't expect that to occur, but who knows?

- A

 

[rrcphoto]

...
So does this http://www.dpreview.com/news/7168986570/canon-shows-dynamism-eos-80d-breaks-new-ground-for-canon-low-iso-dr or this http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/57460079 for example not count?

No, it does not.

All that they have presented is JPEG images, not any measurements.

And in the second link:

In comparison, here's a look at well known APSC cameras from other manufacturers (all data except for the 80D numbers from DxO's website)

making up a measurement for what someone expects DxO to report is worse than DxO doing it themselves.

what are you going on about now?

bclaff as already done the SNR and DR chart for the 80D, dpreview has tested the raw lattitude ..

 

[Loswr]

...
So does this http://www.dpreview.com/news/7168986570/canon-shows-dynamism-eos-80d-breaks-new-ground-for-canon-low-iso-dr or this http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/57460079 for example not count?

No, it does not.

All that they have presented is JPEG images, not any measurements.

And in the second link:

In comparison, here's a look at well known APSC cameras from other manufacturers (all data except for the 80D numbers from DxO's website)

making up a measurement for what someone expects DxO to report is worse than DxO doing it themselves.

what are you going on about now?

bclaff as already done the SNR and DR chart for the 80D, dpreview has tested the raw lattitude ..

Hey, it's dilbert. The guy who thinks Canon broadcast field lenses are actually cameras and that the 1D C isn't a dSLR. Don't expect him to let facts get in the way of his foolish opinions. :

 

[d]

what are you going on about now?

bclaff as already done the SNR and DR chart for the 80D, dpreview has tested the raw lattitude ..

Ironically, dilbert himself was last week posting links to bclaff's website for this information!!

d.

 

[Loswr]

what are you going on about now?

bclaff as already done the SNR and DR chart for the 80D, dpreview has tested the raw lattitude ..

Ironically, dilbert himself was last week posting links to bclaff's website for this information!!

It's just an opinion. :

 

[rrcphoto]

My point of view is that I would have loved to replace my ageing 5D2s with something with more resolution AND a more modern sensor. Looks like I'll have to wait for the 5Ds/r2.

yeah because you'll see a huge difference in between 24 and 30 or so Mp..

for over 6+ years now the common Mp's for a DSLR has been around 24MP.

A7 and A7II for instance have been around 24MP. A900, 24MP, D750 24MP.. there's little evidence that it's going to change or even that a change between something like 24 to 30 is going to amount to a hill of beans.

 

[rrcphoto]

what are you going on about now?

bclaff as already done the SNR and DR chart for the 80D, dpreview has tested the raw lattitude ..

Ironically, dilbert himself was last week posting links to bclaff's website for this information!!

d.

oh god.. *dies*

 

[d]

My mistake...it was a little over two weeks ago.

*Red font is my doing*

Better still, the author's site

http://www.photonstophotos.net/index.htm

Where he has measurements for the 80D

This is a really awesome website.

For an idea of how much better the 5DsR is than the 5D3:

http://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm#Canon%20EOS%205D%20Mark%20III,Canon%20EOS%205DS%20R

http://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/RN_ADU.htm#Canon%20EOS%205D%20Mark%20III_14,Canon%20EOS%205DS%20R_14

http://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/RN_e.htm#Canon%20EOS%205D%20Mark%20III_14,Canon%20EOS%205DS%20R_14

This last graph is really interesting because it suggests that the 5D3 has 7 discrete amplifier stages and that ISO 160-250 (and subsequent groups of 3) are all "similar". Of the Canon systems on that page, only the 1DX and 5DsR have a graph that match each ISO level being different at both 1/3 stops and full stops.

 

[davidmurray]

This forum is always entertaining.

People whine because they can't get 1D features for a 5D price.

100% right, but I'll always whine about the lack of spot metering at the selected AF point on my 5D3. That's not state of the art technology needed to shoot arctic foxes in -50F conditions. Hell, that functionality exists on Rebel-level gear on the Nikon side. That legitimizes my whine, IMHO.

- A

IMHO the only thing that legitimizes a whine is a whine glass.

Based on the range of cameras and lenses that Canon has been making, based on the reputation that Canon's photography products have, and based on the fact that Canon is continuing to make a fair profit from its DSLR cameras and lenses, I'd say Canon very well knows the market, and knows what will sell, and what sort of person will buy those products.

More power to them, and long may they remain the market leader, and I look forward to seeing what next beauty they tempt me with.