Canon EOS 70D & EOS 7D Mark II Speculation [CR1]

[Wrathwilde]

I'm not buying these specs. It isn't possible to have the autofocus from the full frame 5D III on an APS-C 7D II.

Good point. Physically, it's probably possible, in that the 61-point AF sensor array fits within the APS-C frame (see below). The side points go right to the edge of the frame, which sounds wonderful - but probably too good to be true, as vignetting and distortion will impact AF performance (one reason why there aren't AF points right to the edge of the frame!).

OK, so the sensor size of the D300(s) is slightly larger, but it doesn't seem to have caused too many problems for Nikon.

If they dropped the EF-S lens support for the 7D2... then vignetting and distortion shouldn't be any more of a problem for the AF than it is now on Canon's FF cameras. Alternatively, they could keep compatibility with EF-S lenses and disable the outermost AF points... to keep lens distortion from being an issue.

On another note, regarding the dual Digic 5 processors... I don't see it happening, I betting on a single Digic 5+. No need for the expense of dual processors when one will do the job just fine.

Cheers,
Wrathwilde

 

[Marine03]

if 70d is indeed gaining "everything" from 7d except fps, size, weight (basically body) it might be the one for me. Especially interested in the viewfinder and AF.

Didn't the rumor the other day suggest that the 7D2 would be closer to 11 or 12 FPS? Which leaves room for a 70D with new Sensor, Digic 5 1 or 2 of them with 8FPS still and 19pt AF. For those who want it there is still an upgrade of 4 FPS and a heck of a lot of AF points.

 

[Dylan777]

I'll take 70D - I do need a crop body, but not SUPER FAST as 7D II.

 

[whatta]

if 70d is indeed gaining "everything" from 7d except fps, size, weight (basically body) it might be the one for me. Especially interested in the viewfinder and AF.

Didn't the rumor the other day suggest that the 7D2 would be closer to 11 or 12 FPS? Which leaves room for a 70D with new Sensor, Digic 5 1 or 2 of them with 8FPS still and 19pt AF. For those who want it there is still an upgrade of 4 FPS and a heck of a lot of AF points.

Indeed, I think there is more than enough room to differentiate the 70d from 7d2 (and from 60d and 7d) even if they share the sensor like in the current models. Personally I am not interested in fps, so the slower (probably cheaper) the better for the 70d.

 

[awinphoto]

I'm not buying these specs. It isn't possible to have the autofocus from the full frame 5D III on an APS-C 7D II.

Good point. Physically, it's probably possible, in that the 61-point AF sensor array fits within the APS-C frame (see below). The side points go right to the edge of the frame, which sounds wonderful - but probably too good to be true, as vignetting and distortion will impact AF performance (one reason why there aren't AF points right to the edge of the frame!).

What vignetting and distortion? It's not like the lenses project anything different than they do on FF. Yeah maybe a few EF-S or APS-C only lenses might have troubles with the outermost points but they can lock them out, the 5D3 AF allows varying number of points for different lenses so the code is already programmed to be able to take care of that they just assign each EF-S the correct category.

I think he's referring to some of the lenses that natoriously have distortion and vignetting like the 17-40, 16-35, perhaps even the standard ef-s lenses at the wide end and 10-20, etc... I dont think it would be as bad as some would fear, but what do i know. If nikon can trickle down one of the top AF to it's D300's, i'm sure canon can do it as well.

 

[bbasiaga]

I would wonder if the 7DII would maybe then be a full frame camera at 18mpx?

I'm usually wrong on this stuff, but I really don't understand why Canon would want to put out a "cheap" full frame camera. Even though there had been much griping about the price of the 5DIII, it's spent a lot of time back-ordered at many shops. Why cannibalize sales on a big seller with a cheaper model?

As another has alluded to, I also don't see why they would want to continue to have three tiers of APS-C camera (Rebel, XXD, and XD). I would look for "70D" to take over as the mid-range prosumer model, hopefully restoring the more solid build quality and feel that was compromised in the shift from 50D to 60D. Then (and here's me starting to wish) I'd like to see the 7D market space filled with an APS-H camera. I'd hate to see APS-H end with the 1D MkIV. APS-H doesn't match full-frame for shallow DOF effects, but it is a nice upgrade from APS-C in this area and it gives a little more reach with tele lenses than FF.

Good points, all. Though, does anyone know the real sales numbers of 5DIIIs? My local shop was talking about this the other day. They get 2-3 shipped to them a month, and sell that many easily. But they aren't selling tons and tons of them. Leaves the question open whether the supply problem is really one of demand, or one created by Canon due to the very metered release of units.

The lower cost full frame would be a seller, so I can see room for it. The 5dII still sells, so would a replacement at the same price point. It doesn't cannibalize as many sales of the 5DIII as you'd think - its people who can't afford or justify the cost of the 5DIII but still want FF performance who buy this camera (small studios, avid consumers?).

It'll be very interesting to see what comes of these seires of rumors. It'll tell what Canon is thinking.

-Brian

 

[dlleno]

On another note, regarding the dual Digic 5 processors... I don't see it happening, I betting on a single Digic 5+. No need for the expense of dual processors when one will do the job just fine.

Cheers,
Wrathwilde

it will be interesting to see --- the 7D architecture itsef is already dual Digic 4, so maybe dual digic 5 is not that far "out there" in terms of feasibility (i.e. depending on Digic 5 architecture, it may drop in nicely to the 7D bus..).

additional ramblings:

I wonder if single Digic 5+ would differentiate the 7D2 very well from the others, esp since it is dual digic 4 today. Note that it takes 2 Digic 5+s and a Digic 4 in the 1DX to produce 12fps with an 18mp sensor, although I'm seeing reports of acheiving 14 fps ... I just wonder if 7D2 might need more than a single Digic 5+ to get above the current 8 fps (A single Digic 5 can produce 10fps in the powershot, but this is only a 12MP sensor). Dual Digic 5 in the 7D2, with appropriate firmware and throttling of the I/O bus, could easily acheive 10fps, leaving room for the superior 1DX performance.

... but I don't know that much about Digic processors, or if a single Digic 5+ could produce 10fps with 18MP, given the right I/O subsystem. And I'm also assuming that 7D2 will bump up the fps, and that hasn't been verified either.

 

[LetTheRightLensIn]

I'm not buying these specs. It isn't possible to have the autofocus from the full frame 5D III on an APS-C 7D II.

Good point. Physically, it's probably possible, in that the 61-point AF sensor array fits within the APS-C frame (see below). The side points go right to the edge of the frame, which sounds wonderful - but probably too good to be true, as vignetting and distortion will impact AF performance (one reason why there aren't AF points right to the edge of the frame!).

What vignetting and distortion? It's not like the lenses project anything different than they do on FF. Yeah maybe a few EF-S or APS-C only lenses might have troubles with the outermost points but they can lock them out, the 5D3 AF allows varying number of points for different lenses so the code is already programmed to be able to take care of that they just assign each EF-S the correct category.

I think he's referring to some of the lenses that natoriously have distortion and vignetting like the 17-40, 16-35, perhaps even the standard ef-s lenses at the wide end and 10-20, etc... I dont think it would be as bad as some would fear, but what do i know. If nikon can trickle down one of the top AF to it's D300's, i'm sure canon can do it as well.

But they won't do any worse than they would on the 5D3 and the 16-35's are actually among the MOST wide AF capable, being class A, all 61 points optimally. And even the 17-40 is only group C which still allows for all 61 points, all cross as cross, the only thing that loses is all of the center column double precision diagonal cross.

 

[LetTheRightLensIn]

On another note, regarding the dual Digic 5 processors... I don't see it happening, I betting on a single Digic 5+. No need for the expense of dual processors when one will do the job just fine.

Cheers,
Wrathwilde

it will be interesting to see --- the 7D architecture itsef is already dual Digic 4, so maybe dual digic 5 is not that far "out there" in terms of feasibility (i.e. depending on Digic 5 architecture, it may drop in nicely to the 7D bus..).

additional ramblings:

I wonder if single Digic 5+ would differentiate the 7D2 very well from the others, esp since it is dual digic 4 today. Note that it takes 2 Digic 5+s and a Digic 4 in the 1DX to produce 12fps with an 18mp sensor, although I'm seeing reports of acheiving 14 fps ... I just wonder if 7D2 might need more than a single Digic 5+ to get above the current 8 fps (A single Digic 5 can produce 10fps in the powershot, but this is only a 12MP sensor). Dual Digic 5 in the 7D2, with appropriate firmware and throttling of the I/O bus, could easily acheive 10fps, leaving room for the superior 1DX performance.

... but I don't know that much about Digic processors, or if a single Digic 5+ could produce 10fps with 18MP, given the right I/O subsystem. And I'm also assuming that 7D2 will bump up the fps, and that hasn't been verified either.

1DX does 14fps with the mirror up, the processing can handle 14fps, it's the mirror that can't (although i think there is a limit to very high ISO because it can't quite do NR fast enough then)

1DX only uses the two digi 5+ for speed the digic iv has nothing to do with the throughput it is only used to drive the fancy new metering chip and the color/face tracking mode assist for phase detected AF.

 

[dlleno]

ok good to know. still, if it takes dual digic5+ to get to 14fps, what does that say about the the capability of a single digic 5+ to exceed the present 8fps requiring dual digic 4?

At first glance, and a cursory read on wikipedia, it does appear that 1 digic 5+ would outrun a pair of 4's, but with all the extra noise processing going on I'm not sure how much of the Digic 5 speed actually translates into fps capability

and you're right about the mirror being part of the limitation. interesting to see what 7D2 does in that regard, i.e. will it offer a mirror-up burst, or what is the practical upper limit when the mirror is operational.

 

[Loswr]

1DX only uses the two digi 5+ for speed the digic iv has nothing to do with the throughput it is only used to drive the fancy new metering chip and the color/face tracking mode assist for phase detected AF.

Hmmmm....then why is the Digic 4 chip in there at all? Most likely, it's there because if the dual Digic 5+' had to handle the metering, the camera could not achieve 12/14 fps. So it may have a lot to do with the throughput, albeit indirectly.

 

[babarasghar]

i reckon 70D will be a single processor APSC bad ass in 7D body
n 7D2 will be pitched against D600 of nikon ie full frame in a plasticy body ...
cause if canon is not prepairing grounds to compete D600 then things will be very very difficult for an apsc 7D2 ...

 

[Richard8971]

I would have to imagine that a 70D upgrade would follow the path of the 60D, otherwise a 7D replacement would have to place it "closer" (minus FF) to the 5D3, which wouldn't make much sence, unless it came with a higher MP sensor than 18. I only say that because of the fact that the 7D was placed too closely to the 50D in terms of "features", Canon had to "downgrade" the 60D to make the 7D seem more attractive for buyers and users. (Don't get me wrong, I like the 60D, it's a very good camera)

The 7D is one heck of a camera. It is loaded with features and is still "high-tech" even from today's standards. They would have to replace it with something that would make even the 5D3 stand up and take notice. I mean heck, they took the best of the 5D2 and the best of the 7D to make the 5D3!

18MP cannot be where Canon levels the playing field, even if it is an "upgraded" sensor. If the new 7D2 is 18MP, I cannot imagine too many features added that would justity upgrading my current 7D. (Even if it shoots 10 FPS, or more and dual digic 5) Now, IF the 7D2 came with a 24, 30, or higher MP sensor (ASP-H, or ASP-C) sensor and shot 8 or 10 FPS, then I might consider it. Or if it came with a FF sensor, but I wouldn't trade it for a "lesser" MP sensor (14, 16, or otherwise) for the current 7's speed. Now that being said, if the 7D2 was 16MP FF and shot 10 FPS, then I may look into it. Video is not something I care about (or use) so I don't worry about what features or not it has with video.

My opinions are based on a possible "entry" level of a cheaper FF camera (that is also rumored to be 18MP) from Canon. They need bodies to fill different price ranges and features. A return of the 70D to the status it had before (I.E. 40D, 50D...) would make the placement of any 7D upgrade a difficult one for Canon.

D

 

[floex712]

The specs for the 7D II seem plausible and more than likely what will come to fruition. An upgrade to the 7D would retain the Dual processers or it wouldn't be much of an upgrade. Although the 61 point AF system from the 5D III is likely, one can assume it may come down to a 41 point system as this would be top of the line APS-C body and not FF. However, if they implement the 61 point AF system from the 5D III, you'll hear NO complaints from me. 8fps is a lot so can't really speculate on that. Also, we will no doubt see an improvement on high ISO performance and overall IQ. A 3.2" screen size would be nice as well. I guess this is me making assumptions on what my wish-list is for the 7D II. I can't really say I care for them to make the switch to SD card storage. Dual CF slots would be welcome and I wouldn't protest to 1 CF and 1 SD slot.

As far as the 70D, the biggest thing I would ask for is that it be returned to a Mag Alloy body.

 

[briansquibb]

I think the AF from the 1D4 would fit straight into the 7D2

 

[moreorless]

i reckon 70D will be a single processor APSC bad ass in 7D body
n 7D2 will be pitched against D600 of nikon ie full frame in a plasticy body ...
cause if canon is not prepairing grounds to compete D600 then things will be very very difficult for an apsc 7D2 ...

I'm not really seeing how those two cameras would be competing agenst each other, one sounds like its going to be offering high IQ in a more amature body while the other will be targeted more towards the pro market with advanatges in most other areas.

If the 7D mk2 really does look to target the 1D market for a high quality crop action camera I wonder whether Canon will back it up with future quality EF-s lenses? the crop is much more significant afterall and I'm guessing alot of users would like a 17-55 2.8 IS with professional build/sealing.

 

[Birdshooter]

Funny to see that there are a whole lot of users, wanting that the 7D will go full frame. I don't think that that is going to happen, because the target market for the 7D is not full frame.
It is THE wildlife body for prosumers and there are thousands of them out there.

These users want a body which is capable of shooting fast in low light conditions, and is using a crop factor. It needs to have spot on AF system. The 7D was a huge improvement over the 40D.

What is left to wish for and what would justify a upgrade?
- New 18MP sensor (is more than enough for wildlife, look at 1D)
- Better noise peformance in low light as well as low ISO
- Magaloy body, fully weathersealed
- Metering on AF point
- 8-10 fps
- no popup flash but build in radio controller

Why not FF?
- to get the same amount of detail after cropping the image, you would need a 46MP FF sensor. Because the target market is wildlife, you would still need to have 8 fps. At that MP level, the camera would be more expensive than the 1Dx.

7DII will be the top of the line APS-C

1Dx: Best of two worlds! (if you can buy this body, the lenses to go with it is no problem either!)
5DIII: Prosumer Full Frame (Portrait, Studio, Landscape)
7DII: Prosumer APS-C (Sports, Wildlife)

xxD series, for the amateurs, but I do see the option that a entry FF would fit in here (16 MP 2.5 fps)

xxxD series, entry level

xxxxD, toy series. Will remain, to make money, and is always a mix of old components of other series.

 

[dlleno]

The 7D is one heck of a camera. It is loaded with features and is still "high-tech" even from today's standards. They would have to replace it with something that would make even the 5D3 stand up and take notice. I mean heck, they took the best of the 5D2 and the best of the 7D to make the 5D3!

much depends on the future of Canon's participation in the premier wildlife (crop) body space. If they stay in it, then 7D2 will have to make the 1D4 take notice, I would say.

18MP cannot be where Canon levels the playing field, even if it is an "upgraded" sensor. If the new 7D2 is 18MP, I cannot imagine too many features added that would justity upgrading my current 7D. (Even if it shoots 10 FPS, or more and dual digic 5) Now, IF the 7D2 came with a 24, 30, or higher MP sensor (ASP-H, or ASP-C) sensor and shot 8 or 10 FPS, then I might consider it. Or if it came with a FF sensor, but I wouldn't trade it for a "lesser" MP sensor (14, 16, or otherwise) for the current 7's speed.

But -- consider that Canon just announced a new18mp (FF) camera, with a new sensor along with a boat load of featuers beyond the 7D. Moreover, today's 16MP 1D4 is still suprior to todays 7D in many respects

Now that being said, if the 7D2 was 16MP FF and shot 10 FPS, then I may look into it. Video is not something I care about (or use) so I don't worry about what features or not it has with video.

consider that you can purchase a 1D4 today, which exceeds these requirements.

My opinions are based on a possible "entry" level of a cheaper FF camera (that is also rumored to be 18MP) from Canon. They need bodies to fill different price ranges and features. A return of the 70D to the status it had before (I.E. 40D, 50D...) would make the placement of any 7D upgrade a difficult one for Canon.

Agreed that the 7D2 positioning will be interesting to watch, especially if 1.3x goes away. I don't see xxD line filing the premiere wildlife crop-of-some-sort market ,but 7D2 could do that if the timing with the 1D4 was carefully done. The 1D4 is aging, but still spanks the 7D (except for price!), so the 7D2 intro would have to leap frog the 1D4 in my opinion (even if a breakthrough in price per performance). Canon appears to be forcing the serious high-dollar wildlife guys into buying a lot of glass (move from crop to 1DX), so many would like to see 7D2 as the premiere crop body wildlife body -- including the possibility of 1.3x. I'm in that camp too.

 

[ruuneos]

7D Owners!
Are you going for upgrade?

I'm not going to upgrade my gear, next upgrade what I will do is going to FF.
Haven't seen any good rumors about 7D2 specs yet what makes me feel to upgrade, only things what I've put note is new 18mp sensor, 61pt AF and better noise performance. So probably not going to upgrade my gear just because of those.

 

[RLPhoto]

Now that I Think about the canon lineup, 1.3X could work like this

1DX- full frame

5DIII - full frame

7D2 - 1.3X w/10 fps

70D - 1.6X crop,

Rebel - 1.6X Crop