Canon EOS 7D Mark II Specifications Confirmed

[Marsu42]

I really don't understand what the fuss is about....

Seems to be a love-hate relationship with Canon :-o ... I certainly have one since I bought my first film camera (eos 620) in the early 90s. Canon is smart and keeps designing their products so people shell out a lot of $$$ while still wishing for more. Plus photogs in general seem to be quick to adopt a smug, know-it-all attitude, after all you're the one having the power and pressing the BUTTON :->

What we have here is someone wants some aspect of their next camera to be better than what they have now... WHY ARE YOU PEOPLE ARGUING!!!!!

To some extend, I can understand both sides and thus can skip reading: Until I kept using Magic Lantern's dual_iso module (nearly 15ev dynamic range on the 6d) I didn't miss anything and kept bracketing. If you don't shoot higher dr scenes or are simply are used to 10ev, it's easy to perceive others as trolls. But higher dr is big news, it means less hassle with exposure and more freedom for shooting scenes that were out of scope of photography some years ago.

To be ot: Personally, the rgb metering is the most interesting news to me - it also means better exposure = more of the dr used = less noise. Strangely, this innovation seems lost in the thread.

 

[dtaylor]

Better data is better data.

This is the crux of the argument. Most of the time there is no difference in the quality of data between the two systems. The difference only manifests itself in specific and quite extreme circumstances.

dtaylor's example is a good demonstration of an extreme EV range + dark coloured subjects in the under exposed area that still isn't extreme enough to cause much of a problem even for an old 7D, yet your reply is to basically say it's not under exposed enough.

If you love under exposure get a camera with an Exmor sensor.

Someone gets it...thank you! ;D

 

[EOS AE1]

to be honest if i would meet any of you at a photography meeting i would turn around and go.

you all show disgusting personalities and i understand that most of you choose to be anonymous.

 

[rfdesigner]

I don't know about anyone else, but I'm finding this highly entertaining.



So far all the manufacturers are leaving a lot of performance on the table.. Total QEs are still in the teens, (60%mono + Bayer).. readout noise could fall quite a bit further.

If canon were to jump a couple of stops of low light performance, I think a lot of people would put up with lower DR for that... certainly sports which must be a major market.

I think physics would still allow about 4 stops of improvement without having to use bigger sensors.

 

[x-vision]

Yet another strawman :

I'm telling you, man. Your arguments are ridiculous as they are right now.

As I said, think about what you will say about the 14-stops DR of the 5DIV.
You will have to either flop-flop on your DR stance - or you will be accused of being a Nikon troll,
as everyone in Canon land will be excited about the new sensor.

My suggestion is that you cut your loses and flip-flop now 8).

 

[Don Haines]

I really don't understand what the fuss is about....

Seems to be a love-hate relationship with Canon :-o ... I certainly have one since I bought my first film camera (eos 620) in the early 90s. Canon is smart and keeps designing their products so people shell out a lot of $$$ while still wishing for more. Plus photogs in general seem to be quick to adopt a smug, know-it-all attitude, after all you're the one having the power and pressing the BUTTON :->

What we have here is someone wants some aspect of their next camera to be better than what they have now... WHY ARE YOU PEOPLE ARGUING!!!!!

To some extend, I can understand both sides and thus can skip reading: Until I kept using Magic Lantern's dual_iso module (nearly 15ev dynamic range on the 6d) I didn't miss anything and kept bracketing. If you don't shoot higher dr scenes or are simply are used to 10ev, it's easy to perceive others as trolls. But higher dr is big news, it means less hassle with exposure and more freedom for shooting scenes that were out of scope of photography some years ago.

To be ot: Personally, the rgb metering is the most interesting news to me - it also means better exposure = more of the dr used = less noise. Strangely, this innovation seems lost in the thread.

I still don't understand the arguing.....

Take Jrista as an example..... he wants more DR and less noise in his images.... The thing is, we all do. If the 7D2 came out with 20 stops of DR and almost no noise, would anyone refuse to buy it because Canon made it too good? Of course not.... but we would expect even more from the next model out. We always want more, and if the other guy already has it, that just makes the desire stronger.... So why are people arguing? Shouldn't the reaction be "me too" and then the great debate ends?

 

[Eldar]

I really don't understand what the fuss is about....

Seems to be a love-hate relationship with Canon :-o ... I certainly have one since I bought my first film camera (eos 620) in the early 90s. Canon is smart and keeps designing their products so people shell out a lot of $$$ while still wishing for more. Plus photogs in general seem to be quick to adopt a smug, know-it-all attitude, after all you're the one having the power and pressing the BUTTON :->

What we have here is someone wants some aspect of their next camera to be better than what they have now... WHY ARE YOU PEOPLE ARGUING!!!!!

To some extend, I can understand both sides and thus can skip reading: Until I kept using Magic Lantern's dual_iso module (nearly 15ev dynamic range on the 6d) I didn't miss anything and kept bracketing. If you don't shoot higher dr scenes or are simply are used to 10ev, it's easy to perceive others as trolls. But higher dr is big news, it means less hassle with exposure and more freedom for shooting scenes that were out of scope of photography some years ago.

To be ot: Personally, the rgb metering is the most interesting news to me - it also means better exposure = more of the dr used = less noise. Strangely, this innovation seems lost in the thread.

I still don't understand the arguing.....

Take Jrista as an example..... he wants more DR and less noise in his images.... The thing is, we all do. If the 7D2 came out with 20 stops of DR and almost no noise, would anyone refuse to buy it because Canon made it too good? Of course not.... but we would expect even more from the next model out. We always want more, and if the other guy already has it, that just makes the desire stronger.... So why are people arguing? Shouldn't the reaction be "me too" and then the great debate ends?

Fully agree! As simple as that!

 

[unfocused]

You have almost single handily destroyed these forums with trolling. No one can actually discuss what the 7D2 is because the topic is derailed...YET AGAIN...to a stupid fight over DR and shadow latitude.

to be honest if i would meet any of you at a photography meeting i would turn around and go.

you all show disgusting personalities and i understand that most of you choose to be anonymous.

I absolutely agree with this.

This forum is being held hostage by a tiny, tiny subset of people who are fixated on insignificant differences in one single component of a camera. In addition several of these DR Trolls seem to be plagued with what an editor of mine use to call "diarrhea of the typewriter." Instead of making their point and moving on, they choose to bludgeon everyone over the head with the same drive-by talking points over and over and over again.

Whenever anyone tries to discuss anything else, they hijack the thread and turn it into a debate over their one and only topic.

Virtually everyone else on this forum has been willing to concede that there are differences in sensors and that Sony branded sensors have strengths. So what? Honestly, I don't even know what these DRONES want. How many times and on how many different threads must we be subjected to the same drivel day after day?

Just for the record, these endless debates have convinced me of two things:

1) I no longer believe J. Rista knows anything. I used to think he had a pretty good grasp of technical issues and would even specifically ask him about certain issues. Now, I just think he's full of himself and doubt the accuracy of anything he used to claim knowledge of.

2) Canon must make pretty damn good cameras if the only thing wrong with them is that they show some shadow banding when you point the lens directly into the sun and try to lift shadows of some leaves that are about 30 stops underexposed.

I doubt if either of these things are what they intended, but that's the conclusion I've come to.

(BTW, I am not anonymous. I have always included my website address and you can find my bio there if you care to.)

 

[Gorku]

:

 

[unfocused]

Virtually everyone else on this forum has been willing to concede that there are differences in sensors and that Sony branded sensors have strengths.

Not really.

This DTaylor guy just won't give up.
And we can't let him off the hook just like that - and leave the Internets with the impression that he's right.
This is serious 8).

Well, that makes me smile a little. A bit more humor and tolerance of different opinions would be welcome.

 

[tcmatthews]

I really do not know why they are arguing about DR stuff in a Canon EOS 7D Mark II Specifications Confirmed section. There was no mention of DR in these specs. I admit I am not really interested in DR arguments in a 7D II rumor thread. Unless DR is specifically in the rumored spec.

DR is important but is this the right place for this discussion.

But the Internet has its trolls. Every rumor site has its trolls. If you go to a Sony site you see a ton of complaints about not enough lens for A mount. All the the rumors are about E mount. The flash system sucks. Followed by I am dumping all my gear if they do not release X lens and going to Canon. Some then someone pipes up and states why not go to Nikon. This is generally followed by a bunch of former Nikon customer with various maintenance nightmares.

 

[x-vision]

I'm not trolling the forum with 1,000 word posts claiming Exmor is dramatically better and Canon users are missing out. Burden of proof was always on you.

Here's an offer for you:
Why don't you just conceded that Exmor has 2-stops of DR advantage over Canon.
And also that this is helpful and meaningful for a lot of users.

You do that and we stop arguing on the spot.

That's the thing: I doubt that you will do that, since you can't admit that Canon is worse.
Instead, you are going to keep trolling insisting that there's hardly any difference.

And yet again: think about what you are going to say when a Canon sensor has 14-stops of DR - same as the Exmors.

 

[unfocused]

1) I no longer believe J. Rista knows anything. I used to think he had a pretty good grasp of technical issues and would even specifically ask him about certain issues. Now, I just think he's full of himself and doubt the accuracy of anything he used to claim knowledge of.

Well, I think that's a bit harsh and extreme...but everyone is entitled to their opinion. :-\ Why would anything I've said recently invalidate things I've said in the past though, especially things I've provided the math for? Is it that you really don't trust what I've said in the past (I know you don't trust what I say now, that's beyond clear), or simply that you just want me to shut up and not voice my opinions because your simply tired of hearing them, and your at the point of flinging insults in hopes I'll respond? You really want me to shut up that bad...you could have sent me a PM.

If your that sick of it...fine. I'll be done with this thread. If you really don't want to hear me anymore, ever, on any other threads...you can ignore me in your user profile. Here...I'll make it easy for you...just plug in your user ID:

http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;area=lists;sa=ignore;u=[userId]

Perhaps a bit too harsh. Maybe it comes from typing at the speed of thought.

I'm just perplexed as to why this suddenly has become so all-important. And, yes, I do think it has undermined your credibility with me – not that that should matter a bit to anyone.

But, do answer me this. A few months ago, you wrote a number of long explanations as to why a new 7DII sensor could not possibly match a full frame sensor in high ISO performance. In fact, as I recall, the basic premise was that we were pretty much at the limits of physics when it comes to ISO performance and that the best that could be expected was maybe a quarter to a half of a stop or so improvement.

So, knowing that, why does there seem to be such bitter disappointment that Canon has not exceeded the limits of physics?

I've got to be honest. I've looked closely at comparisons of Canon, Nikon and Sony performance on any number of review sites. My conclusion, which has been confirmed by the reviewers in their assessments, is that the higher megapixel sensors used by Nikon and Sony have much more serious noise issues as ISO increases. When you look at the comparison shots posted on these different sites, the story is always the same, whether its full frame or APS-C -- the greater the pixel density, the greater the noise.

In fact, Sony themselves are confirming that, since they significantly ratcheted down their pixel density to get better high ISO performance. And, even Nikon has now released their new camera with fewer pixels to improve their ISO performance.

So, what has caused you to now believe Sony's sensors are magical and Canon's are an utter failure?

 

[privatebydesign]

jrista,

You might be able to type 100wpm, but I wish you would learn the difference between you're and your, you're always typing your when you mean you're.

 

[takesome1]

I didn't ask you for names, I asked you if you had special insight in telling me that Canon isn't using a textbook manufacturing strategy. Some way to back up your naysaying. NDA's are a big deal, you don't ****** over your friends to appease internet trolls.

I think it is your version of textbook manufacturing strategy that we were discussing.
Are you claiming to have insider insight in to Canon's strategy and how they handled the release of their technology? If so I think you can lean back in your armchair and continue to type.

 

[Marsu42]

There was no mention of DR in these specs. I admit I am not really interested in DR arguments in a 7D II rumor thread. Unless DR is specifically in the rumored spec.

I agree that the general arguments about dr have been exchanged and if there's no new information there's little use of repeating them here. However, as in a lot of situations in life, the most important things are left unsaid

It's certainly interesting what specs Canon *didn't* (actively?) leak. And as dr (i.e. noise level) is one of the biggest differences vs. Nikon/Sony, it's strange there's no word about it. Just like the new 11pt af system on in the 6d specs back then, only for reviews to discover that it's the legacy 5d2 system and there's not a single full cross pt .

What skeletons has Canon hidden in the closet that don't show up on the spec list? Imho this discussion belongs in a 7d2 rumor thread.

Exmor does not have 14 stops. That's physically impossible given a linear ADC and 14-bit depth. We will not see 14 stops without improvements in noise beyond Exmor plus 16-bit ADCs.

In my capacity as self-proclaimed ML ambassador: Their dual_iso module outputs 16bit dng raw files because 14bit wouldn't do it.

 

[joejohnbear]

Planned obsolescence is taught in freshman engineering classes. Even Jrista disagreed with you. College dropout troll, I'm done feeding you.

I didn't ask you for names, I asked you if you had special insight in telling me that Canon isn't using a textbook manufacturing strategy. Some way to back up your naysaying. NDA's are a big deal, you don't ****** over your friends to appease internet trolls.

I think it is your version of textbook manufacturing strategy that we were discussing.
Are you claiming to have insider insight in to Canon's strategy and how they handled the release of their technology? If so I think you can lean back in your armchair and continue to type.

 

[Admin US West]

Whenever a new model is announced, its always the same. People get in arguments and start calling names.

The moderators get tired of issuing warnings and issuing bans.

Its OK if someone believes something different. Stop criticizing other people's posts, and name calling will get a warning or a ban.

 

[AccipiterQ]

Hah, spot on, FEBS.

I used to have a personal t2i that I'd use alongside a D300 for sports, and I call bullshit on Accipter's claim as well that he shoots wildlife/sports/action on it. Sold that S___ and upgraded as soon as I could afford it. If you ACTUALLY shot SERIOUS SPORTS, then you're going to know that AUTOFOCUS TRUMPS DR in any F______ argument. Have no money? Sell the t2i and get a 1d mk ii n and stop your bitching and moaning. Buy the 1dx otherwise if you're that "invested," which I doubt you are. If you have a 55-250 or a 70-200 f/4, go, SWITCH TO NIKON and stop your moaning. Can't afford their 70-200 f/4 VR? Boofuckinghoo. Entitled git.

I'm going to disagree.

That's the thing...I shoot wildlife/sports/action photography. I use a T2i right now when I'm shooting with a crop. Know why? My glass is all Canon. If it wasn't for that I'd have switched. The 70D offers absolutely no improvement in image quality over the T2i. It's the same flippin sensor, just using new technologies to squeeze a .001% image quality improvement out of it. Now this is coming out with the SAME F'ING SENSOR. The sensor is about 80% of the reason you'd buy a camera, once you choose your subject matter. The 7Dii is going to be a glorified T2i. Same old ancient sensor technology, with a few useless bells & whistles, none of which get down to the root: THEY HAVEN'T MADE A SINGLE INNOVATION IN SENSOR TECHNOLOGY IN YEARS. It's the same mediocre sensor, just rehashed. This is why they're starting to, or will continue to lose market share to other companies. Absolutely insane that it took a half decade to refresh, and it's basically going to be the exact same camera with the exact same sensor, just with a tiiiiny bit extra squeezed out of that sensor. Absolute garbage. I can't tell you how pissed off I am right now.

Don't let me laugh. The reason you bought a T2i as a camera for wildlife/sports/action photography is for sure NOT the sensor. Be honest, it was the price.

What a thought that the sensor would be 80% responsible for the purchase of such a camera. If sensor quality would be that important to you, then you would have bought a 1-series. Nothing else. What a bullsh_t you are telling here. And what about the 5D3 sensor? No progress made?

As a wildlife/sports/action photographer you are not interested in those fps, 65 crosspoints AF, f8, ... ? You really make me laugh man, don't call yourself a action photographer if you are only interested in the highest quality sensor.

If you have that good Canon glass that you can't change, then simple do buy a 1Dx and stop complaining and stop telling such a nonsense !!!

Ha! I don't agree with some of the points above (and pretty much any of the points Acci made, but all these posts made me break a chuckle.
Love the passion!

You actually think the 70D is an improvement over the T2i in any way shape or form? You actually think rehashing the same garbage sensor they've been retching up is going to give you what, more than a 1% upgrade in image quality? Seriously?

Yes for sure. there is even a big improvement. I regular have the opportunity with my photo friends to test all those models. The 70D is much better then the T2i. I agree, the mp is only increased by 12%, but I even would have liked a 7D2 with 18mp, or even 16mp. It's not the mp that makes that action camera great. It's all around, the total mix, and that's only as weak as the weakest link of a chain!!! If the sensor of the 7D2 is the same as the 70D, there will be no other crop camera on the market to beat this 7D2.

Hmmmm maybe the 70D I played around with wasn't very good then. I have some spots that I go to regularly, and took sample shots, and comparing to the T2i I didn't see a lick of difference between them in image quality, nor in iso noise quality.

 

[dtaylor]

Here's an offer for you:
Why don't you just conceded that Exmor has 2-stops of DR advantage over Canon.

Because it doesn't have 2 more stops of total DR. Unless, of course, you're comparing the oldest 18 MP generation to the latest 24 MP Exmor generation. Same generation? The 70D is behind Exmor by 0.1 stop of total DR. I believe the 5D3 is behind by about 1 stop of total DR.

Depending on the bodies being compared, you will find pairs where there's 2, or even more, stops of additional shadow latitude. That is to say if you push the shadows the Canon is showing excessive noise or banding at +2 or +3 and the Sony can go to +4/+5.

But DR and latitude are two separate things.

And also that this is helpful and meaningful for a lot of users.

It would be more accurate to say that Exmor shadow latitude is helpful in terms of work load, and produces observably better shadow detail in print, in some cases. The work load envelope is wider then the print difference envelope. Put another way, with a little extra work there's often (not always) no difference in the final print.

And yet again: think about what you are going to say when a Canon sensor has 14-stops of DR - same as the Exmors.

Exmor does not have 14 stops. That's physically impossible given a linear ADC and 14-bit depth. We will not see 14 stops without improvements in noise beyond Exmor plus 16-bit ADCs.

If Canon changed their ADCs and achieved Exmor level shadow noise/latitude tomorrow I would be happy with the improvement. Doesn't mean I believe it's a massive difference that negatively impacts my work today.