Canon EOS R5 records 4 hours of 4KHQ 30p to an external recorder, with a couple of simple tweaks

dtaylor

Canon 5Ds
Jul 26, 2011
1,682
1,239
Guys,I got an update from one of the canon staff that they had received email the new firmware will sort of fix the overheating issue with longer recording and faster recovery time.Finger cross,I still haven't place my pre order yet.

Some how I missed this, but that would be awesome. These cameras are so incredibly well designed and well performing. Mitigate this one flaw and there's nothing that can compete at their price points.
 

Chig

Birds in Flight Nutter
Jul 26, 2020
137
110
Orewa , New Zealand
It would seem there should be a way in software (new menu item) to disable any use of installed memory cards that could accomplish the same outcome without having to physically remove the cards?
I don’t understand why physically having the cards inside would make any difference assuming the camera isn’t writing to the cards
Also should be able to record to a smaller , cheaper 4K recorder without a monitor screen
 

dcm

It's not the gear.
CR Pro
Apr 18, 2013
882
282
Colorado, USA
I don’t understand why physically having the cards inside would make any difference assuming the camera isn’t writing to the cards
Also should be able to record to a smaller , cheaper 4K recorder without a monitor screen

Just like a computer, the cards share a data bus with the processor, the internal memory buffer for continuous shooting, other cards, etc. so the card is always active. It doesn't turn off, it has to monitor the bus for any data directed its way and process it when that happens. This means a portion of the card is always active.
 

Colorado

EOS M6 Mark II
Dec 16, 2013
53
152
Just like a computer, the cards share a data bus with the processor, the internal memory buffer for continuous shooting, other cards, etc. so the card is always active. It doesn't turn off, it has to monitor the bus for any data directed its way and process it when that happens. This means a portion of the card is always active.
Yes, this is a good explanation.
 
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Just like a computer, the cards share a data bus with the processor, the internal memory buffer for continuous shooting, other cards, etc. so the card is always active. It doesn't turn off, it has to monitor the bus for any data directed its way and process it when that happens. This means a portion of the card is always active.
Just to follow up on this, I did a bit of googling and came across this...

http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/2815914.pdf - which is the engineering spec for a Delkin CFexpress. If anyone doesn't want to read it (don't blame you!), there's three interesting points...

First - the heat sensor is on the CFExpress card for the Delkin - presume others do the same. And this will control when the speed is throttled ie Canon doesnt control it, but presume they get feedback from the card.

Second - Delkin supports APST, ASPM & L1.2 power management. Which essentially allows the card to go into a lower power mode when it is not active, but at the cost of delayed wake up time. Doubt it is more than a few seconds.

Third - the Delkin has different operating Power States, which consume less power while still operating (there is a light & heavy throttle). The default state has no throttling. Alas the paper doesnt state how much light throttle does - but if the cards can do 1000MBps write (on the higher capacity cards) then a mild throttle may not impact write performance (believe the highest 8K modes need 325MBps)

I could not easily find if Sony, Lexar and Sandisk support these - I guess one could email to find out, but equally importantly, one hopes that Canon doesn't support the lower power modes nor the power management in DryOS and therefore there could be some benefit gained from implementing them.

Or what we experience is with the power management active, in which case, another dead end, lol.
 

Berowne

... they sparkle still the right Promethean fire.
Jun 7, 2014
305
156
No that’s not what he said at all.


Much higher resolution lenses will not realize close to potential sensor resolution so at best, using his rough rule of thumb, you’d end up with maybe another 30mp or so, or going from 70mp with current lenses to 100mp with new generation much more expensive lenses.

Mind you the entire idea of constantly moving forwards in this is, in my opinion, flawed. For movie/video use we intentionally use shutter speeds to blur each individual frame, 4kHQ and 8k demand higher shutter speeds to maintain the detail and have a distinct look far away from the ‘cinematic’ look so sought after by influencers, YouTube experts, and forum hobbits. For stills at ±50mp we already vastly outstrip the possible resolution of most output apart from people with the need to use extreme crops and whilst there is a user base with that requirement it is not the norm or close to it. I am a generalist professional photographer and sell prints up to 24” x 36” and I use 20mp. Sure I could use more resolution on occasions but I see little benefit 99% of the time for pros or amateurs or enthusiasts that warrants the expense of another new round of lenses and cameras, we passed the point of diminishing returns on mp a long time ago.

You are rigth. My formulation: With a 150MP-Sensor only the Zeiss Otus and the best Sony/Sigma-Primes will give good results is at last misunderstandable.

I would suggest an experiment: compare the amount of details visible in a certain motive with two different lenses - same focal lens but old and new design - and two different sensors - low and high number of pixels. Make a prediction: you will see more details when using the Sensor with more pixels, but only if you use the newer lens, not the one with the old design assuming that the old lens is "not so sharp". :)
 

Berowne

... they sparkle still the right Promethean fire.
Jun 7, 2014
305
156
Ok, here are the (more or less dissappointing) results.

1153 = 70D & 85/1.8@f1.8
1159 = 70D & 85/1.4@f4.0
1604 = 6D & 85/1.4@f4.0
1609 = 6d & 85/1.8@f1.8

One would expect to see no difference in Detail in case of the low-pixel 6D with different lenses, but see more details in the high-pixel 70D in case of the new 85mm lens stopped down.
 

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SteveC

R5
CR Pro
Sep 3, 2019
2,120
2,001
Just to follow up on this, I did a bit of googling and came across this...

http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/2815914.pdf - which is the engineering spec for a Delkin CFexpress. If anyone doesn't want to read it (don't blame you!), there's three interesting points...

First - the heat sensor is on the CFExpress card for the Delkin - presume others do the same. And this will control when the speed is throttled ie Canon doesnt control it, but presume they get feedback from the card.

Second - Delkin supports APST, ASPM & L1.2 power management. Which essentially allows the card to go into a lower power mode when it is not active, but at the cost of delayed wake up time. Doubt it is more than a few seconds.

Third - the Delkin has different operating Power States, which consume less power while still operating (there is a light & heavy throttle). The default state has no throttling. Alas the paper doesnt state how much light throttle does - but if the cards can do 1000MBps write (on the higher capacity cards) then a mild throttle may not impact write performance (believe the highest 8K modes need 325MBps)

I could not easily find if Sony, Lexar and Sandisk support these - I guess one could email to find out, but equally importantly, one hopes that Canon doesn't support the lower power modes nor the power management in DryOS and therefore there could be some benefit gained from implementing them.

Or what we experience is with the power management active, in which case, another dead end, lol.

This brings up the interesting possibility that what we are seeing is NOT actually the camera overheating...but rather the card throttling back when it overheats, to a point where the camera can no longer write to it fast enough for the mode it's in. The camera then has no choice but to terminate 8K/4KHQ/4K120. However, since the card is still able to support lower data rates, you can take pictures and shoot 1080p/4K normal quality all day.
 
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dtaylor

Canon 5Ds
Jul 26, 2011
1,682
1,239
One would expect to see no difference in Detail in case of the low-pixel 6D with different lenses, but see more details in the high-pixel 70D in case of the new 85mm lens stopped down.

You would always expect a gain whether that gain was easily visible to the naked eye or not. Again, system resolution will always be lower than the weakest component, but improving any component brings you closer to the theoretical maximum (which would be the weakest component if all other components were perfect).

With all due respect to the fact that you are testing, which I applaud, your shots have other variables which interfere (namely framing). The Digital Picture's repository can be used to explore this question as the "low" resolution 1Ds mark III is (or was) one of his test cameras.

85 f/1.4L IS @ f/4 vs 85 f/1.8 @ f/1.8

85 f/1.4L IS @ f/2 vs 85 f/1.8 @ f/2
 
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This brings up the interesting possibility that what we are seeing is NOT actually the camera overheating...but rather the card throttling back when it overheats, to a point where the camera can no longer write to it fast enough for the mode it's in. The camera then has no choice but to terminate 8K/4KHQ/4K120. However, since the card is still able to support lower data rates, you can take pictures and shoot 1080p/4K normal quality all day.
Would be lovely if Canon just had to say - "eject your CFExpress and continue with a new card"..... but I wouldn't bet on it.... I think there is definitely that scenario possible, CF overheats before everything else, but I think a swap may give you a bit more time, not considerable / unlimited.
 

SteveC

R5
CR Pro
Sep 3, 2019
2,120
2,001
Would be lovely if Canon just had to say - "eject your CFExpress and continue with a new card"..... but I wouldn't bet on it.... I think there is definitely that scenario possible, CF overheats before everything else, but I think a swap may give you a bit more time, not considerable / unlimited.

Well, if this is the issue (and I'm not leaving out the possibility that the Digic processor could overheat too, just not as fast--see the thread on the disassembly), AND Canon wrote their firmware intelligently, then swapping cards should IMMEDIATELY reset the overheat "flag" in the camera. Has ANYONE tried this? (I own no CFE cards, so cannot.)
 

blackcoffee17

EOS RP
Sep 17, 2014
576
640
Maybe they can just optimise some thing in firmware and disable certain not needed features while shooting video.
Or maybe just the temperature warning was set too low and the camera can easily run at few degrees higher without issues.

Maybe they can also develop a firmware which lowers the price of the R5.
 
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Ramage

EOS R5
CR Pro
Aug 27, 2019
484
965
I really do think the thermal protection is a lot like the exposure triangle where each system impacts the other system. It is appears the cards are the weak link in the "Thermal QUAD".

My Made Up Thermal QUAD:
  1. Cfexpress/SD card
  2. Ram
  3. Processor
  4. Sensor
The cameras health status protocol is monitoring all of these systems for things like:
  • Availability -
    • Are there cards to write to?
    • Is there space on the cards?
    • Is there a flash attached.
    • Is wifi on?
    • etc...
  • Power levels -
    • What is the current voltage of the Battery
    • Does the attached flash have power to fire
    • etc..
  • Heat -
    • How hot are the cards?
    • How hot is the Ram?
    • How hot is the Processor?
    • How hot is the Sensor?
If the cards are the weak link in the QUAD even just having them in the camera close to the Ram and the Processor is enough to put the card in stage 1 of it's thermal warning. When you combine it with other systems hitting their sustained limits the Camera triggers self protection and powers off.

I am leary of the work around of removing the cards for 2 reasons. One I think there is a chance it will have a negative long terms impact on the camera. Two I think Canon will fix this work around and the internet will once again lose its collective mind.
 
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usern4cr

R5
CR Pro
Sep 2, 2018
930
1,214
Kentucky, USA
I have a relative that works for Canon an he got info on it too. Said the fix will be before the R6 starts to ship out. So all R5 units on the next shipment will already have it. And all R6 units will have a similar fix already there.
Did they say anything about those that have a R5 now?
 

Baron_Karza

EOS RP
Feb 17, 2019
343
412
Did they say anything about those that have a R5 now?
I covered the answer for the R5 fix in this part: "the fix will be before the R6 starts to ship out". So we know it will be before the ship date of August 27th, just not exactly which date.
 
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