Canon EOS Rebel T4i/650D Specs [CR2.5]

[realneyc]

I'm looking forwards to an updated sensor too, but since t2i, t3i, 60D, 7D all have the same sensor, it would be really awkward to have a better sensor in t4i before they update 60D and 7D....like someone said before, they want the customers to move to higher end...

 

[RLPhoto]

Canon has made 2 new full frame sensors.

Canon I assume will make 2 New Crop sensors as well.

 

[dlleno]

I'm looking forwards to an updated sensor too, but since t2i, t3i, 60D, 7D all have the same sensor, it would be really awkward to have a better sensor in t4i before they update 60D and 7D....like someone said before, they want the customers to move to higher end...

Canon has shown us in the past that they are willing to use the Rebels to showcase a new sensor, I presume to prove it in the field first, and fine tune the mfg process perhaps. REcent history of the XXD versus the Rebels, in fact, shows that it is more comon for the Rebels to "lead". Examples; While the 30D body was resting on its 8MP laurals, the 400D Rebel appeared with its 10MP sensor, and it wasnt for another year that this 10MP sensor appeared in the 40D. But soon after 40D appeared with 10MP, Canon promptly introduced the 450D Rebel with a 12MP sensor 6 months later, and this "lead" remaind for another nine months, until the 50 was introduced with 15MP.

The 50D briefly lead the 15MP sensor wars for about 3 months before the Rebel 500D followed suit, but then Canon Releaed the 7D shortly thereafter with the 18MP sensor which trickled down, you guessed it, to the Rebel 550D first, and this "lead" (over the XXD) continued for 6 months before 18MP appeared in the 60D.

so it would not surprise me at all to see a new sensor appear in the T4i. maybe it will be 18.4 or something "ish" that can still be called "18MP" but still signal a new sensor

 

[Marsu42]

maybe it will be 18.4 or something "ish" that can still be called "18MP" but still signal a new sensor

I'd be fairly surprised if they stick with exactly 18mp and don't call 18.5 "19mp" for marketing reasons, because the mp count is one of the main specs that will appear in every comparison list - or else they wouldn't have put a minor mp upgrade in the 5d3.

 

[dlleno]

maybe it will be 18.4 or something "ish" that can still be called "18MP" but still signal a new sensor

I'd be fairly surprised if they stick with exactly 18mp and don't call 18.5 "19mp" for marketing reasons, because the mp count is one of the main specs that will appear in every comparison list - or else they wouldn't have put a minor mp upgrade in the 5d3.

I hear you. this is one of the most confusing aspects of this discussion. the site owner here calls it a CR2.5 level rumor, which says information suspected with some credibiltiy at this point is that the sensor is stil 18MP. ok I get that this information is more trustworthy than my opinion. but still it would be courageous for Canon to update a MP-war camera with no incremental salvo. If it truly does come in at 18-ish MP, yes I agree with your assessment that they will call it something attractive. Its just that if we believe the CR2.5 we have to agree that 18MP is it, no matter how much it would surprise me to see it.

maybe the MP wars are over and entry level DSLR buyers are suddenly more educated and will see value in a new 18MP sensor that will take better pictures!

 

[Marsu42]

Its just that if we believe the CR2.5 we have to agree that 18MP is it

I'm reading this site for 1.5 years now, I can say that even a [CR3] isn't really trustworthy and just a rumor, let alone anything else [CRx]. And in this case the site owner even wrote he's not sure about the sensor - so atm, imho your guess is as good as mine or cr's.

Canon is very secretive about their releases and follow in Apple's footsteps but without giving some gimmick information to friendly sites once in a while - so this site is the dark, too.

 

[dlleno]

Its just that if we believe the CR2.5 we have to agree that 18MP is it

I'm reading this site for 1.5 years now, I can say that even a [CR3] isn't really trustworthy and just a rumor, let alone anything else [CRx]. And in this case the site owner even wrote he's not sure about the sensor - so atm, imho your guess is as good as mine or cr's.

Canon is very secretive about their releases and follow in Apple's footsteps but without giving some gimmick information to friendly sites once in a while - so this site is the dark, too.

well he wrote that he's not sure if the 18MP sensor is a new one or not. But yea that aside you make a good point, and I'm surprised the owner didn't editorialize and comment on the what it might mean to make no advance in the MP wars, keeping 18MP. Accordingly, I suggest (1) it would be courageous of Canon to update the Rebel and NOT update the 3 year old sensor. That would be rather boring, as others have pointed out. (2) if the sensor is new, it would be courageous of Canon to keep the MP at 18MP, in a camera on the front lines of the MP wars. THAT would be boring too, but very intriguing to be sure!

this Rebel intro should give us a whole new set of clues into the rest of the 1.6x bodies!

 

[Loswr]

I'd be fairly surprised if they stick with exactly 18mp and don't call 18.5 "19mp" for marketing reasons, because the mp count is one of the main specs that will appear in every comparison list - or else they wouldn't have put a minor mp upgrade in the 5d3.

Not unprecedented. The T3i/600D and T2i/550D have the same MP count, as do the 30D and 20D.

 

[Marsu42]

Not unprecedented. The T3i/600D and T2i/550D have the same MP count, as do the 30D and 20D.

But at least the 600d/650d have the exact same sensor, too, not just the same mp count. To shape internal product differences, if Canon bites the bullet and upgrades the sensor itsself meaning new production lines they might be inclined to add a recognizable number to it. That's for "internal" competition and upgrade users, we don't know how many people upgrade from xxxd to xxxd+1 or xxxd+2.

(2) if the sensor is new, it would be courageous of Canon to keep the MP at 18MP, in a camera on the front lines of the MP wars. THAT would be boring too, but very intriguing to be sure!

On the other hand, maybe they figure that for "external" competition with 24mp Nikon, since they cannot win they'd better not enter the race at all. And market it as their own "18mp is enough" decision because of noise and dr levels...

 

[dlleno]

I'd be fairly surprised if they stick with exactly 18mp and don't call 18.5 "19mp" for marketing reasons, because the mp count is one of the main specs that will appear in every comparison list - or else they wouldn't have put a minor mp upgrade in the 5d3.

Not unprecedented. The T3i/600D and T2i/550D have the same MP count, as do the 30D and 20D.

right. Moreover, the above example also have the same production sensor. As for historical precident, the Rebels tyically "lead" the XXD in the introduction of new sensors. For example, while the 30D was resting on its 8MP laurals, Canon introduced the 10MP Sensor to the Rebel, and this "lead" remained for about a year before the 40 got it -- but then Canon introduced the 12MP sensor to the Rebel to "regain the lead". The notable excption to this "Rebel leads" practice is that for about 6 months, the 50D did "lead" with 15MP but then the 7D intro'd with the 18MP sensor and this trickeled down to, you guessed it, the Rebel -- before the 60D got it.

my conclusion is that Canon uses the Rebels as proving ground for new sensors and turns over this product line more rapidly, due to market pressure and the entry level customer requiring rapid refresh cycles.

What is unusual this time is that we have already 2 Rebel generations with the same sensor which itself is 3 years old (because 7D got it first). In my opinion, it would be unusual to introduce a third Rebel update with the same sensor and it is unusual for a 1.6x sensor to last that long in the first place. Yes, the rapid, MP-war driven pace at which sensors were introduced has calmed down, but my observation is that the Rebel life cycle is still designed to be short, compared to other bodies.

so - just from historical extrapolation the weight of evidence suggests a new sensor in the Rebel. the CR sources are likely more reliable than my opinion, so I remain confused as to why Canon would intro this one without being able to market some progress re: the sensor.

 

[dlleno]

On the other hand, maybe they figure that for "external" competition with 24mp Nikon, since they cannot win they'd better not enter the race at all. And market it as their own "18mp is enough" decision because of noise and dr levels...

could be; that will be interesting to watch, to be sure. the other vector here is that Rebels represent the customer segment least likely to have a heavy investment in Canon glass, and probably the least loyal. it is where new or replacement camera buyers go looking for a consumer DSLR and those with a lick of sense will compare the competition, including the labels on the box, signs at Costco, etc, and the majority of THOSE comparative shoppers are the least likely to understand the trade-offs between pixel density, DR, and noise. Canon may see it differently of course, but generally speaking, the consumer masses are a fickle bunch, and the spec wars are waged in the arena of public acceptance, not necessarily technical superiority: Witness the VHS versis Beta market, for those old enough to remember it.

Maybe that will be an asset to Canon -- If Canon can convince the MP war consumers of some of the downsides to higher pixel density, then I can see your point . It will not be an easy road, when Sony is producing sensors that don't have those same tradeoffs That said I'm hoping Canon has a trump card up its sleeve and can stay competitive, which of course will benefit the Nikon buyers as well.

 

[Marsu42]

I remain confused as to why Canon would intro this one without being able to market some progress re: the sensor.

Maybe the 70d and 7d2 are further away than we'd wish, and Canon doesn't want to cannibalize their 60d sales ...

In my opinion, it would be unusual to introduce a third Rebel update with the same sensor and it is unusual for a 1.6x sensor to last that long in the first place.

... or, as I'm not growing tired of speculating: Canon simply cannot do any better in the aps-c segment at the moment.

 

[dlleno]

In my opinion, it would be unusual to introduce a third Rebel update with the same sensor and it is unusual for a 1.6x sensor to last that long in the first place.

... or, as I'm not growing tired of speculating: Canon simply cannot do any better in the aps-c segment at the moment.

lol well, what a fun show to watch... if Canon simply cannot do any better in the aps-c segment, then you could be right they are just squeezing the last bit of blood out of that turnip by introducing a single Digic-5 Rebel with measureably better IQ than Digic 4.

But if this were the case, time is running out for Canon to either produce or buy a better sensor!

 

[Marsu42]

But if this were the case, time is running out for Canon to either produce or buy a better sensor!

It's indeed interesting - and one way out of the dilemma that they cannot compete with Sony's sensor tech nor milk their 18mp for an unlimited amount of time is to introduce an entry full frame body, as it's often speculated.

If time is running out for Canon, it's very slowly: about 2/3 of dslr users I see running around in Berlin are using a Canon Rebel, then 1/3 Nikon and some cheaper Sony, apart from one or two rich 5d amateurs. In the entry segment, Canon is a well-known brand, has its distribution and marketing set up nicely. And in the higher segment, people are stuck to Canon because they've got EF lenses.

 

[Sean]

So, I've got a new question for the panel. Since we apparently know nothing other than it'll either be a Canon T4i or an apple tree when it comes out, what about value? Specifically, I ask because we currently seem to be expecting an announcement or release sometime- any time in the next month or so.

What are your thoughts on how much prices will shift and over what time frame? (Relatively)

My situation is similar to those pondering an upgrade, however I've never owned a DSLR before. And my overall pocket for investing is small enough to rule out a T4i purchase simply because it'll cost more than the (example) 618.00 dollars USD with which I can currently buy a T3i body new. So somewhat sadly yet fortunate, I at least don't have to worry as much whether it'll have a Digic V. But it does leave me wondering whether to wait, and if so how long, to make a purchase on the T3i.

Other random info: I'll be spending the rest ($450ish) on a specific lens. So it could hurt ones soul to lose anywhere from $50 to $150 just because of hard to nail down release schedules and that life doesn't too often align with them neatly. Thanks for reading. =)

 

[briansquibb]

So, I've got a new question for the panel. Since we apparently know nothing other than it'll either be a Canon T4i or an apple tree when it comes out, what about value? Specifically, I ask because we currently seem to be expecting an announcement or release sometime- any time in the next month or so.

What are your thoughts on how much prices will shift and over what time frame? (Relatively)

My situation is similar to those pondering an upgrade, however I've never owned a DSLR before. And my overall pocket for investing is small enough to rule out a T4i purchase simply because it'll cost more than the (example) 618.00 dollars USD with which I can currently buy a T3i body new. So somewhat sadly yet fortunate, I at least don't have to worry as much whether it'll have a Digic V. But it does leave me wondering whether to wait, and if so how long, to make a purchase on the T3i.

Other random info: I'll be spending the rest ($450ish) on a specific lens. So it could hurt ones soul to lose anywhere from $50 to $150 just because of hard to nail down release schedules and that life doesn't too often align with them neatly. Thanks for reading. =)

A refurb/used T3i with better glass might be a prudent approach. That was when you come to upgrade the T3i you will have good glass to put on it.

 

[Sean]

A refurb/used T3i with better glass might be a prudent approach. That was when you come to upgrade the T3i you will have good glass to put on it.

True. I haven't precluded that, really. But the idea of the question was to ask how far model prices tend to move upon new releases, since I didn't think that would be entirely off topic. One nice thing I've noticed is that they tend to retain value pretty well.

Personally though, I've looked on Canon's eStore and a refurbished body is only about $58 dollars less while they add all but about eight back through tax and Fedex shipping. And Adorama doesn't seem to have any listed at the moment so I couldn't compare theirs and if they do similarly or not. Given that it seems worth the ten'ish dollars to buy new from Newegg, unless I've missed something. I've also heard about the Canon loyalty program, but again I don't have anything to trade in anyway.

 

[walksinhearts]

Have a look here - http://camerapricebuster.co.uk/prod1211.html - it's uk price based but it should give a fair indication of how far and how fast prices fall.

A refurb/used T3i with better glass might be a prudent approach. That was when you come to upgrade the T3i you will have good glass to put on it.

True. I haven't precluded that, really. But the idea of the question was to ask how far model prices tend to move upon new releases, since I didn't think that would be entirely off topic. One nice thing I've noticed is that they tend to retain value pretty well.

Personally though, I've looked on Canon's eStore and a refurbished body is only about $58 dollars less while they add all but about eight back through tax and Fedex shipping. And Adorama doesn't seem to have any listed at the moment so I couldn't compare theirs and if they do similarly or not. Given that it seems worth the ten'ish dollars to buy new from Newegg, unless I've missed something. I've also heard about the Canon loyalty program, but again I don't have anything to trade in anyway.

 

[RobS10]

Any updates on a release date? I am shopping for my first DSLR, and like a lot of folks am looking hard at the D5100 vs T3i tradeoffs. According to most reviews and buzz, the Nikon seems to have the better image quality because of it's sensor, as well as some of the in-camera lens correction the Canon doesn't have (CA and lens geometry distortion correction). In playing around with the two, I much prefer the ergonomics of the Canon (and have a Speedlite from my old 3G to make use of)), but of course it's hard to ignore the Nikon's IQ reputation. I tend to buy things and hold onto them for a while, so I hate the idea of upgrading in a year or so (not to mention the expense) if the T4i is about to be released. I'd rather wait and see if Canon makes important updates (without killing what I do like about the camera) but of course would love to have a camera soon with summer upon us.

 

[Marsu42]

Any updates on a release date? I am shopping for my first DSLR

The 650d most likely won't have a huge iq improvement, it's about features (video af, touchscreen). In any case, if you wait for it you there won't be much summer left to use it... concerning your speedlite you should check if it has the ettl, or you won't have much fun with it either on the newer digital bodies.

And if you're so set on iq, either Nikon or Canon are a wash, because it much more depends on a good lens. Personally, I got the 60d over the d7000 with the better specs because I just like the usability of the Canon better and it runs a hacked firmware (magic lantern) which adds so much more over out of the box Nikon.