Canon Full Frame Mirrorless Talk [CR1]

[3kramd5]

I was thinking a level of visual fidelity to rival OVFs, so maybe 7-8 million dots at 60+ FPS. I know Sony and a few other manufacturers are developing 5+ million dot EVFs at 240FPS, so it might not be too far in the future.

Wouldn’t magnified display size be a factor in that rather than just total spacial resolution (i.e. consider dots per inch)?

Sony is more than developing one, they have a samples available now with full rate production starting in a few months. Part number is ECX399A.

Personally, I have found that extended use of EVFs tends to hurt my eyes. Hopefully something can be done on that front. I’ve used the a7r3, and to me it’s mostly fine from a clarity and speed standpoint.

I imagine so. The A9 can get up to 1/160th second before banding/rolling is seen. I guess we just need faster stacked sensor designs.

Or global readout.

Yeah I was thinking nine, or eight anyway. I know Canon is already working on their next-gen DPAF, so I have a feeling they're coming up with a method to incorporate expanded directional orientation in their pixels. I'm already satisfied with DPAF subject tracking, but I'd like a mode for rapid subject acquisition.

Yah 8 would do it, but then what goes in the middle?


They are

Canon is indeed working on that expansion: they have two patents, I believe, one for quads per diode, and one which rotates the pairs in adjacent sites.

 

[AcaPixus]

Not that I have kept many FD lenses myself, but this may revive full-frame digital life for those who still have FD gems in the drawers Surely, if not Canon, then someone else will produce an EF-R to FD adapter. In fact, full frame adapters may be available for any full frame lens mount, given they keep the flange distance short enough.

 

[peterzuehlke]

I understand the concern for the new mirrorless Canon full frame camera's lens mount, especially those of us with CPS Gold status plus worth of kit around (and a few FD mounts too, argh), but the big reason I went Sony for my mirrorless (a6500) was IBIS, which opens up a whole field of good non-stabilized lenses. (along with eye AF, silent shooting and video features). That's got to be a big decision for Canon with all that IS glass they want to sell to us.

 

[Quarkcharmed]

What metric shows Nikon at Canon's heels? Technology? Sales? Satisfaction?

In terms of announcements/marketing. And perhaps in terms of the tech as there's a very high chance Nikon releases their FF mirrorless earlier than Canon.

Camera bloggers/media outlets haven't exactly been kind to Canon over the last several months, so why would Canon want to leave the messaging on their new release to them?

Canon would have been leaving messaging to vbloggers had they been 'leaking' information to them or right on this site. Had they been released an official trailer, they'd have had control over what and how they want to sell their new gear.

But I'm more pragmatic actually. I expect some message from Canon to me as a customer with some EF L lenses. What would be the [resale] value of my gear? Does it make sense to invest in more EF glass? Or say a 1.4x EF extender?

 

[FramerMCB]

I'm just as excited to see how the new Nikon's spec-out... Fun times!

 

[cnc]

R for Russian spec.

 

[Loswr]

But I'm more pragmatic actually. I expect some message from Canon to me as a customer with some EF L lenses. What would be the [resale] value of my gear? Does it make sense to invest in more EF glass? Or say a 1.4x EF extender?

Why do you expect that from Canon? If someone believes a FF MILC with a new mount that accepts EF lenses via a mount adapter, along with continued updates and sales of DSLRs, along with the fact that EF-M did not meaningfully affect EF-S, all somehow means that EF is knocking at death's door...that someone is unlikely to be reassured by 'some message from Canon'.

 

[justaCanonuser]

Don't worry, my very special contacts allow me to satisfy everybody's needs here. The design of the new L, not R (that was only camouflage), mirrorLess FF series of Canon will be not only very clean, but also cover a revolutionary new modular system. It allows users to easily decompose it completely, smuggle it as unsuspected Lego blocks to all places where cameras are not allowed, and recompose it quickly. With every copy purchased, Canon will offer a special training that enables users to do this in pitch-black darkness within three minutes. This completely new camera system will stuff Sonikoneica mouthes for the next decade, since Canon's labs already work on the next generation: completely self-organizing camera modules using supramolecular chemistry.

And here ... (fanfares) ... we proudly present Canon's new mirrorless full frame modular L series:

 

[Mikehit]

Too small.

 

[bokehmon22]

Since bokehmon was asking about which camera company will package an EVF with two unqualified characteristics first, one must assume that no camera currently available has one yet, thus the A9/A7R3 EVF in this context is either not high resolution, not fast, or both.

Yup A7RIII is still lag for me not to mention the ergonomic, menu, etc is a no

In that case I think you have your answer!

Nope. Not sure when these will arrive in their FF mirrorless. Canon & Nikon might beat Sony to it. Beside I prefer Nikon/Canon ergonomic more.

 

[melgross]

Don't worry, my very special contacts allow me to satisfy everybody's needs here. The design of the new L, not R (that was only camouflage), mirrorLess FF series of Canon will be not only very clean, but also cover a revolutionary new modular system. It allows users to easily decompose it completely, smuggle it as unsuspected Lego blocks to all places where cameras are not allowed, and recompose it quickly. With every copy purchased, Canon will offer a special training that enables users to do this in pitch-black darkness within three minutes. This completely new camera system will stuff Sonikoneica mouthes for the next decade, since Canon's labs already work on the next generation: completely self-organizing camera modules using supramolecular chemistry.

And here ... (fanfares) ... we proudly present Canon's new mirrorless full frame modular L series: View attachment 179780

That’s actually very close to what I expect it to look like.

 

[3kramd5]

Nope. Not sure when these will arrive in their FF mirrorless. Canon & Nikon might beat Sony to it.

Yes I was being a bit flippant by taking your first post literally, i.e. which company will provide the desired EVF first without an unstated requirement that it be in a camera (let alone a full frame one).

Nikon is likely releasing too soon to get that Sony EVF you refer to with its upcoming cameras (presumably they’re in production now, before the EVF is in production). Of course maybe they have another source for an acceptable unit.

 

[Allen]

The new camera will take the current Canon EF lenses. No adapter needed like Nikon. Nikon had to increase their lens mount size in order to have faster larger lenses in the future. Hence a adapter will be needed for Nikon's new camera if you want to use your older Nikon lenses.
Canon has a leg up on Nikon because every Canon EF lens out there will work from day 1.
The new Canon may be announced sooner than you think. They will let Nikon have their day this Thursday, then give Nikon a couple weeks to gloat.
Look for some noise from Canon in the first part of September.

 

[pj1974]

There have been a few posts after my earlier contribution, where I shared my experience of having and using Canon's M5.
A few observations to note and aspects to share (very conscious from my own perspective):
1) Ergonomics is very subjective. Based on many factors, including handsize, preferences, other physical characteristics, etc. What works for one, may not necessarily work for another. I have average size male hands (for a middle aged Caucasian male).
2) Some people learn / adapt and are both better & quicker at developing muscle memory than others. I have used film cameras, then early model Fuji and Kodak digital P&S. Then Canon DSLRs, and added Canon mirrorless to the mix. I have adapted to each.
3) I believe I will always feel that a camera the size of around my Canon 80D is more of a natural fit than a M5. a bit smaller than the 80D could work, and slightly larger also (e.g. I also own the 7D which is notably larger / heavier, but still comfortable... and I really appreciate the thumb joystick)
4) In terms of ergonomics, the 80D is a significant step up from my Canon 350D. The 350D's grip in particular is frustratingly cramped. But the 350D still feels way better than most P&S cameras. The M5 is a step up from my M10. The lack of any real grip on the M10 is a shame, but understandable. Plus it keeps the camera / lens combination small and light. However the M5 with a compact lens (e.g. 22mm f/2 or 15-45mm zoom) is very portable and light.
5) The Canon M mirrorless bodies DO fit a specific niche / area, e.g. with the smaller / more compact / lighter lenses. I do not intend to use my current mirrorless cameras (M5 or M10) with larger EF/EF-S lenses much at all, i.e. via the adapter. I rather use my DSLRs (mainly 80D and 7D) for larger lenses e.g. my 70-300mm L, my 100mm L, Sigma 8-16mm or my 15-85mm lens.
6) I hope that Canon might produce one (or more) EOS-M (mirrorless) APS-C models, which are a larger camera body- e.g. somewhere in the size range of the 800D / 77D / 80D. I also hope that Canon's FF mirrorless will incorporate a lot of great existing technology (e.g. DPAF) with some potential improvements (e.g. improved battery life, improved initial acquisition and tracking, low-light work)
7) Lenses! The existing APS-C EOM lenses are great quality - in terms of image quality and size/weight/build quality. The existing lenses are very good in terms of IQ (sharpness, contrast, IS, AF speed and accuracy). I would look forward to some new/more lenses soon (obviously also those more suited to FF too).
8) Canon is smart. Their market share and history demonstrates that. Canon will likely produce a solidly producing FF mirrorless camera with reliable and very well implemented feature, that will sell well and be used by many happy photographers and videographers.
Regards,
PJ

 

[HarryFilm]

Too late mate. I've already predicted it here. But people only laughed. https://www.canonrumors.com/forum/i...rrorless-camera-cr1.35516/page-19#post-733464

Nobody believes in these revolutionary ideas, not even Canon...

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Sorry, but the new camera kind looks and feels rather good sitting on my desk RIGHT NOW! It's kinda hard to argue when I'm seeing and feeling the final result IN MY HANDS AT THIS VERY MOMENT! Oooooohhhhhh! I wish I could upload some photos and video right now...!!!! This IS SWEEEEEEEET! FULL DCI 8K x 6k up to 60 fps and DCI 4k/5k video at up to 120 fps at multiple aspect ratios, MULTIPLE RAW/444/422/420 interframe AND intraframe codecs with NO extra licence fees. 25 fps 50 Megapixel stills burst at 444 RAW and 444/422 JPEG2000 ... 6.8 microns sensor sites...WHAT A LUMA AND LOW NOISE RESPONSE !!! This IS TRULY the Beast Camera from $$$$$$$$ with F1.4 and even F1.2 prime lenses and big zooms RIGHT OUT OF THE GATE! This IS ASBOLUTELY AN UNTOUCHABLE COMBINED video and stills camera! And it's coming a lot sooner than you think at a price point that will jolt the industry like a wild bronco !!!!!!!!

 

[Quarkcharmed]

---

Sorry, but the new camera kind looks and feels rather good sitting on my desk RIGHT NOW! It's kinda hard to argue when I'm seeing and feeling the final result IN MY HANDS AT THIS VERY MOMENT! Oooooohhhhhh! I wish I could upload some photos and video right now...!!!! This IS SWEEEEEEEET! FULL DCI 8K x 6k up to 60 fps and DCI 4k/5k video at up to 120 fps at multiple aspect ratios, MULTIPLE RAW/444/422/420 interframe AND intraframe codecs with NO extra licence fees. 25 fps 50 Megapixel stills burst at 444 RAW and 444/422 JPEG2000 ... 6.8 microns sensor sites...WHAT A LUMA AND LOW NOISE RESPONSE !!! This IS TRULY the Beast Camera from $$$$$$$$ with F1.4 and even F1.2 prime lenses and big zooms RIGHT OUT OF THE GATE! This IS ASBOLUTELY AN UNTOUCHABLE COMBINED video and stills camera! And it's coming a lot sooner than you think at a price point that will jolt the industry like a wild bronco !!!!!!!!

Ok noted. Thanks!

 

[degos]

There is a place for both - the current 'DSLR shape/size' and the smaller EOS M size, in my humble opinion, particularly when one factors in the smaller EF-M lenses.

I'm surprised you boiled it down to just two sizes, since you've also used the 7D which is considerably bulkier than the 80D. There's also the 1D size, which personally I find the best hand-holdable size for prolonged use. It's actually more comfortable than a gripped 7D for me because the curves all fall in just the right place.

So personally I'd want any FF mirrorless to be 7D-sized minimum.

And can we please get rid of that stupid mode-dial? What a waste of space on a 21st-century device.

 

[justaCanonuser]

I'm surprised you boiled it down to just two sizes, since you've also used the 7D which is considerably bulkier than the 80D. There's also the 1D size, which personally I find the best hand-holdable size for prolonged use. It's actually more comfortable than a gripped 7D for me because the curves all fall in just the right place.

So personally I'd want any FF mirrorless to be 7D-sized minimum.

And can we please get rid of that stupid mode-dial? What a waste of space on a 21st-century device.

I love the mode dial, it's one of the proofs that some hands-on 20th century technology can be much quicker than swiping through endless menus. Click, turn, ready.

The latest FF ML cameras such as recent Sonys and the Leica SL are well on the way to meet your requirements. Pretty sure that the next generations will be even bulkier than classic DLSRs, because of all the stuff included for better marketing. Sony, e.g., could come up with a built-in 5-axis-stabilized beverage can refrigerator - and of course an electronic assistant like Alexa yelling at you if you shoot faces without a smile, playing your most hated songs without asking you for permission, talking permanently about the latest products Sony wants to sell you and suddenly exploding in strange laughters when nobody expects it.

Leica, on the other hand, may present new purist SL models stripped down to nearly nothing (no LCD screen) , but nevertheless with a bigger than ever Bauhaus brick-like form factor.

 

[justaCanonuser]

Too small.

If you mean my post about the real ML FF from Canon I should mention that you can have it in a Lego Duplo version.

 

[SaP34US]

How much larger is the FF going to be vs the M5 so button could be located in better possibly?