Canon Inc. releases their Q1 2021 financials

Nigel95

EOS M6 Mark II
Oct 2, 2020
66
87
This conversation started out with M. You then entered the conversation.

Why is ASP-c not break even or slightly profitable? Because that market has collapsed! Where have you been?

I understand wanting RF ASP-c. Will Canon do it? If Canon research indicates there is money to be made, yes. However, “break even” or “slightly profitable “ ain’t gonna cut it. Canon doesn’t exist for altruistic reasons. Canon exists for the purpose of making a profit. Period. ASP-c in EF is dying because the low end is dying. Changing mounts does not change the reasons for that segment dying.
R7 isn't low end or it might be in the eye of FF owners.
 

EOS 4 Life

EOS R
Sep 20, 2020
1,060
833
I think it is safe to say that if M was raking in the $, that Canon would be pouring in development $ and we'd see a much more robust lens line up for M.
That is not safe at all.
Canon is investing more money into full-frame mirrorless because they figure they will get a higher ROI.
That is not an indication that they make less money from their existing investment in other cameras.
 

privatebydesign

I post too Much on Here!!
CR Pro
Jan 29, 2011
10,497
5,723
I think it is safe to say that if M was raking in the $, that Canon would be pouring in development $ and we'd see a much more robust lens line up for M.
But you are making the classic enthusiasts mistake of thinking all buyers think like you. Canon never invested a fortune in Rebel development yet they made shedloads of money from them. People who buy Rebels and M's generally don't do it because they want big fancy lenses that cost many times the price of their cameras, they don't care about f1.anything, they want them for specific uses that they feel their phones can't do. Better photos and videos with less noise, much better screens, etc etc.

Yes M's did sell as second cameras to people like us, but that was a happy accident that led to some modest developments like the 32 f1.4 and, er, that was it really. The rest are mostly great to modest image quality slow zooms and the ubiquitous macro Canon seem to develop early in every systems life.
 

CanonFanBoy

Purple
CR Pro
Jan 28, 2015
5,658
4,086
Irving, Texas
But you are making the classic enthusiasts mistake of thinking all buyers think like you. Canon never invested a fortune in Rebel development yet they made shedloads of money from them. People who buy Rebels and M's generally don't do it because they want big fancy lenses that cost many times the price of their cameras, they don't care about f1.anything, they want them for specific uses that they feel their phones can't do. Better photos and videos with less noise, much better screens, etc etc.

Yes M's did sell as second cameras to people like us, but that was a happy accident that led to some modest developments like the 32 f1.4 and, er, that was it really. The rest are mostly great to modest image quality slow zooms and the ubiquitous macro Canon seem to develop early in every systems life.
Actually, I wasn't making my statement from a buyer's perspective. Mine had to do with business.
 

justaCanonuser

Grab your camera, go out and shoot!
Feb 12, 2014
853
699
Frankfurt, Germany
That is not safe at all.
Canon is investing more money into full-frame mirrorless because they figure they will get a higher ROI.
That is not an indication that they make less money from their existing investment in other cameras.
You nailed it. It is like car production: premium cars generate higher margins for the industry.
 
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justaCanonuser

Grab your camera, go out and shoot!
Feb 12, 2014
853
699
Frankfurt, Germany
Canon tends to follow the money.
Wise strategy in capitalism ;)
If the 7D, 90D, and M6 sell well then expect an R7.
I really hope for it, as a birder.
My worry is what they will do based on what they think will happen.
I would gladly buy any of those cameras with the IBIS that I would expect included in an R7 and I am not sure how many people they think are like me in that regard.
I guess we will find out latest 2022 if we can expect any APS cameras for the RF mount.
 

justaCanonuser

Grab your camera, go out and shoot!
Feb 12, 2014
853
699
Frankfurt, Germany
The low-end Canon M50 isn't "getting clobbered". In both the USA and Japan, it's Canon's best selling mirrorless camera.
I just checked Amazon Germany (where I live), bestseller list (status this morning CET) is:
#1 M50 black kit with 15-45mm zoom
#2 Kodak Fun Saver (no joke, Kodak's faded film imperium strikes back :devilish:)
#3 Panasonic Lumix FZ80
#4 Canon PowerShot ELPH 180 (a PS camera!)
#5 M50 white kit with 15-45mm zoom

(next rankings include several Rebels etc. from Canon, some cameras from Panasonic, one Olympus)

The first Sony is A6400 on rank #29, first Nikon is a D3500 kit on #40... and Nikon used to be extremely popular in Germany years ago. So, Canon really dominates the "lower end" market here in Germany. But, in fact, most people here like elsewhere on this planet use their smartphones and are happy with them.
 
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EOS 4 Life

EOS R
Sep 20, 2020
1,060
833
Smartest thing Fuji did in the past years is starting its GFX (crop) medium format series. Very tempting for me, I have to say.
GFX 100S is an all-around great camera and they are starting to have interesting lenses.
There is also a Metabones focal-expander for Canon EF and a Metabones focal-reducer for Hasselblad medium-format lenses.
By the time the price gets low enough for me I am hoping that Canon has an affordable 100 MP camera.
 

SteveC

R5
CR Pro
Sep 3, 2019
2,436
2,304
I just checked Amazon Germany (where I live), bestseller list (status this morning CET) is:
#1 M50 black kit with 15-45mm zoom
#2 Kodak Fun Saver (no joke, Kodak's faded film imperium strikes back :devilish:)
#3 Panasonic Lumix FZ80
#4 Canon PowerShot ELPH 180 (a PS camera!)
#5 M50 white kit with 15-45mm zoom

(next rankings include several Rebels etc. from Canon, some cameras from Panasonic, one Olympus)

The first Sony is A6400 on rank #29, first Nikon is a D3500 kit on #40... and Nikon used to be extremely popular in Germany years ago. So, Canon really dominates the "lower end" market here in Germany. But, in fact, most people here like elsewhere on this planet use their smartphones and are happy with them.

Nikon is very dominant here. The last time my brick and mortar had a big sale event, I saw a LOT of people picking up D3500s. When I go out in public and see someone with a camera, it's almost invariably a Nikon. Even my one friend who has a Canon (and introduced me to it), now tells me he wishes he had gone with Nikon.
 

justaCanonuser

Grab your camera, go out and shoot!
Feb 12, 2014
853
699
Frankfurt, Germany
Nikon is very dominant here. The last time my brick and mortar had a big sale event, I saw a LOT of people picking up D3500s. When I go out in public and see someone with a camera, it's almost invariably a Nikon. Even my one friend who has a Canon (and introduced me to it), now tells me he wishes he had gone with Nikon.
So, the seemingly still prefer DSLRs where you live. Looks like these people don't read photography blogs and forums, otherwise they should know that mirror slappers are totally no-go these days. Btw this writes a still happy 5D4 slapper user ;)

Regarding Nikon vs Canon: we have both extended Nikon and Canon gears here, and my wife, a long-time Nikonian was several times close to change to Canon. Why? Simply, because we shoot a lot of wildlife in rugged areas and my Canon gear overall proved to be much more reliable. I also needed only one time service in the past 10 years, her Nikon gear needed new AF drives, broken mirror boxes, non-functioning buttons after rain ... I guess only the D3/4/5/6 pro series of Nikon has the quality and reliability Nikon once was famous for, but we both prefer cameras with smaller bodies. Having one or two cameras, a 500mm prime tele and some other gear in the rucksack is enough to carry.
 

SteveC

R5
CR Pro
Sep 3, 2019
2,436
2,304
So, the seemingly still prefer DSLRs where you live. Looks like these people don't read photography blogs and forums, otherwise they should know that mirror slappers are totally no-go these days. Btw this writes a still happy 5D4 slapper user ;)

Regarding Nikon vs Canon: we have both extended Nikon and Canon gears here, and my wife, a long-time Nikonian was several times close to change to Canon. Why? Simply, because we shoot a lot of wildlife in rugged areas and my Canon gear overall proved to be much more reliable. I also needed only one time service in the past 10 years, her Nikon gear needed new AF drives, broken mirror boxes, non-functioning buttons after rain ... I guess only the D3/4/5/6 pro series of Nikon has the quality and reliability Nikon once was famous for, but we both prefer cameras with smaller bodies. Having one or two cameras, a 500mm prime tele and some other gear in the rucksack is enough to carry.

These observations date back to before Covid, and the events were summer of 2019. Nikon does do mirrorless, of course, but Canon hadn't really fully leapt into it at that time either (R5 and R6 were still a year away).

However, talking just last week to someone at the brick-and-mortar, they still do more Nikon business than Canon business.
 

Czardoom

EOS RP
Jan 27, 2020
316
695
RIP crop ILC cameras. Forum users declare you dead! Yes, I think we all understand that the profit margins are smaller. But I checked the Amazon USA best selling digital camera rankings a couple weeks ago and found:

In the top 25:
only 1 FF mirrorless (Canon R6, ranked #22)
4 Canon DSLR rebels/kits (#2, #7, #18 & #25)
2 Canon M mirrorless (M50 #9 and M50 II #20)
1 Nikon crop DSLR (D3500 #25)

Checking today:
In the top 25:
only 1 FF mirrorless (Sony A7 III, #16)
5 Canon DSLR rebels/kits (#3, #8, #9, #21, #24)
2 Canon M mirrorless (M50, #1, #10)

I think people on the forum make a couple wrong assumptions (just my opinion, of course). They assume that more people are like them and forget that the vast majority of people can't afford, or will not spend much money on a camera. The least expensive cameras (models that form folks usually scoff at) are selling the most. (Yes, at probably a very low profit margin).

Forum folks also assume that there needs to be an upgrade path. I think Canon counts on the upgrade path being much simpler than most here think. The path is, "I liked the Rebel (or M series) camera that I bought, but now I am interersted in a higher end camera. Hmmm, what brand was it? Oh, Canon! I will buy a new Canon!" No worries about lens compatibility. No worries about "investment." Simply, I liked my cheap Canon, now I will buy a new Canon.
That's my take.
 

justaCanonuser

Grab your camera, go out and shoot!
Feb 12, 2014
853
699
Frankfurt, Germany
These observations date back to before Covid, and the events were summer of 2019. Nikon does do mirrorless, of course, but Canon hadn't really fully leapt into it at that time either (R5 and R6 were still a year away).

However, talking just last week to someone at the brick-and-mortar, they still do more Nikon business than Canon business.
Must be an unusual Nikonian hotspot, since Canon sells more cameras and lenses worldwide, Nikon has not yet half of Canon's market share. Here are numbers for 2019, so still the "pre-R5/6" period:
 

EOS 4 Life

EOS R
Sep 20, 2020
1,060
833
Simply, I liked my cheap Canon, now I will buy a new Canon
It also helps that the EOS RP is fairly priced.
I have seen people jump straight from the M50 to the EOS RP which is practically a full-frame version of that camera.
The same can be said from a Rebel T8i to a 6D.
Going from DSLR to mirrorless is simple as well.
 
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