Canon lays out their corporate strategy

[dolina]

Yes the Fujifilm GFX cameras are extremely tempting for certain subjects. I could almost see myself getting one for landscapes, but I don't really want the cost of running 2 systems, or the encumbrance of dragging 2 bodies and 2 sets of lenses around the world with me. And to be honest, I'm perfectly happy with the quality I get from my R5.

I was intending to do a clean switch from EF to GFX if I did not historically do sports or birds.

Based on the videos I've seen of these bodies and lenses it reminds me how a 2008 5D Mark II or 2015 5Ds R behaves.

Having big hands makes the physicality of GFX appealing.

I was half hoping that the RF L lens image circle was secretly large enough for MF so a surprise Canon MF body would become available by now.

 

[neuroanatomist]

The smallest body that I'd consider buying as a backup/second body to my R5, is the R7, but even that feels too small to me, and the difference in ergonomics between it and the R5 also put me right off.

Personally, I choose to sacrifice ergonomics in favor of portability for a second/backup body. A camera serving that purpose is not one I’m likely to use frequently or for long periods – that’s why my main camera (R3) is my main camera.

 

[entoman]

Personally, I choose to sacrifice ergonomics in favor of portability for a second/backup body. A camera serving that purpose is not one I’m likely to use frequently or for long periods – that’s why my main camera (R3) is my main camera.

Yes, I can see the logic of that, but here is how I'm looking at it:

a) the backup scenario: my R5 breaks and I have to use an ergonomically different body, which I've rarely used before. In this instance I have to suddenly adapt to a new way of working and new control layout. I don't adapt to sudden changes in ergonomics very quickly, so I'd definitely find myself fumbling and missing a lot of shots. The control placement and operation of the R7, R8 and R10 wouldn't work for me, but the R6 and R3 (or of course another R5) are similar enough that I could easily and quickly adapt.

b) the second camera scenario: I switch between R5 and the other body, according to subject. In my case I'd be using the R5 for wildlife and macro, and the other body for general travel photography and landscapes. For the latter, a compact pocketable point and shoot would be more suitable. In this instance I would not have a *suitable* spare body, if my R5 broke.

For me, two identical, or near-identical bodies is the best answer, together with a pocketable point and shoot. Currently, I have other financial priorities (mostly traveling, as you may have guessed), so I'm taking my chances that my R5 won't break (unlikely) or get dropped while I'm away working on a photo project. One option of course would be to buy a second R5 body, take it along as an emergency spare, and then return it to the dealer for a refund as soon as I got back, but that seems a bit underhand...

 

[Del Paso]

A friend loaned me his RP to use as a spare body to my R5 on a trip to Bolivia last October, but I only used it for a few shots. It wasn't just the height that I found problematic, it was also the small and cramped controls. It just didn't suit me, although it's a perfectly capable camera.

With small cameras, handling problems are compounded for me, because I'm a left-eye user, and with a small camera I'm constantly poking myself in the right eye with my thumb.

The smallest body that I'd consider buying as a backup/second body to my R5, is the R7, but even that feels too small to me, and the difference in ergonomics between it and the R5 also put me right off. Currently I only have one RF mount body, but I'm hoping that the price of the R5 will drop further, so I can get another one (I want more MP than the R6 or R6ii)..

Similar left-eye shooter here, same sore-right-eye issues. And sometimes, changing ISO, focus or other settings with my nose.
Therefore, constantly reversing the rear screen on the R (gripped because a bit small).
The R 5 handles nicely, even without a battery- grip, the R 7 far less...
In my backpack: Leica M + WA, EOS 5 D IV + macro and tele.
As a backup? EOS R in hotel room.

 

[entoman]

Similar left-eye shooter here, same sore-right-eye issues. And sometimes, changing ISO, focus or other settings with my nose.
Therefore, constantly reversing the rear screen on the R (gripped because a bit small).
The R 5 handles nicely, even without a battery- grip, the R 7 far less...
In my backpack: Leica M + WA, EOS 5 D IV + macro and tele.
As a backup? EOS R in hotel room.

You probably already know this, but for the benefit of others, on the R5 you can disable the touch capability of the screen, or you can confine the touch-sensitive area to one half or one quarter of the screen, which may help. You can also assign a button to switch the screen on/off. I think you can also do this with the R, and most if not all R-series cameras?

Personally, I never use the screen for viewing/composing or replay, so when shooting, it's reversed to protect it. I only use the screen to change menu settings, or the change certain parameters via the Q-screen option. I find it much easier to use the Q-screen to change these parameters, than to do it via the EVF.

 

[Del Paso]

You probably already know this, but for the benefit of others, on the R5 you can disable the touch capability of the screen, or you can confine the touch-sensitive area to one half or one quarter of the screen, which may help. You can also assign a button to switch the screen on/off. I think you can also do this with the R, and most if not all R-series cameras?

Personally, I never use the screen for viewing/composing or replay, so when shooting, it's reversed to protect it. I only use the screen to change menu settings, or the change certain parameters via the Q-screen option. I find it much easier to use the Q-screen to change these parameters, than to do it via the EVF.

I usually never use the screen, unless I want to change a setting, or for review when using a macro-strobe. I find it easier, and also more "protective" to reverse it than to use a dedicated button. Yet, sometimes, I just forget...and my nose becomes active.

 

[entoman]

I usually never use the screen, unless I want to change a setting, or for review when using a macro-strobe. I find it easier, and also more "protective" to reverse it than to use a dedicated button. Yet, sometimes, I just forget...and my nose becomes active.

I guess there's an art to it, but maybe we should train our noses to select/position the AF point!

 

[David - Sydney]

My personal speculation is that Canon Japan is trialing 5y warranty down under, because we're a small enough market that if it proves costly, it's not very consequential.

Canon would have all warranty return details and their internal cost in each market as well as any post warranty returns and internal cost and external charge price to calculate margins, staffing resources, spares inventory and overall quality.

It isn't clear why Canon Australia offers 5 years vs other markets and substantially greater than competitors.
The Australian versions shouldn't have more quality than other markets but I am happy to have it

 

[David - Sydney]

You say it as a joke, but I did it like that at an event I was filming where the organizers showed interest in photos during the event. I cropped them to photo format and the quality was comparable to a photo from a good cell phone, so it's perfectly fine for FB and the web.

8k/30 raw produces 33mp raw frame grabs so they should be good quality assuming that the shutter speed is high enough for stills. The standard 1/60s for 30fps wouldn't be ideal for most events (IMHO).
They should still be substantially better than a phone photo.

 

[entoman]

Canon would have all warranty return details and their internal cost in each market as well as any post warranty returns and internal cost and external charge price to calculate margins, staffing resources, spares inventory and overall quality.

It isn't clear why Canon Australia offers 5 years vs other markets and substantially greater than competitors.
The Australian versions shouldn't have more quality than other markets but I am happy to have it

I'm sure you are right, that it's Canon Australia who are offering the 5 year warranty directly, rather than Canon Japan having a hand in it. I'd imagine that Canon Oz, Canon USA, Canon Europe etc all make their own decisions on warranties, as it is they (rather than Canon Japan) who have to carry the costs of warranty repairs.

 

[entoman]

8k/30 raw produces 33mp raw frame grabs so they should be good quality assuming that the shutter speed is high enough for stills. The standard 1/60s for 30fps wouldn't be ideal for most events (IMHO).
They should still be substantially better than a phone photo.

With video frame grabs, the shutter speed would have to be higher than you'd normally use for stills, because IBIS is only active for stills. And as you point out, 1/60 isn't going to freeze much movement. Digital stabilisation of video won't stabilise individual frames, it just smooths the frame-to-frame instability (*after* exposure), AFAIK.

 

[David - Sydney]

With video frame grabs, the shutter speed would have to be higher than you'd normally use for stills, because IBIS is only active for stills. And as you point out, 1/60 isn't going to freeze much movement. Digital stabilisation of video won't stabilise individual frames, it just smooths the frame-to-frame instability (*after* exposure), AFAIK.

Why isn't IBIS (and OIS) enabled for video on the R5? The whole "wobble" issue for wide angle video is due to IBIS as far as I know.
The R5c doesn't have IBIS though.

 

[SnowMiku]

Getting back to shutter life expectancy, I've never been clear (and neither have the manufacturers, AFAIK) about what constitutes an "actuation".

I've always wondered what is considered one actuation as well. Mechanical on a mirrorless might count as 2 actuation's and EFCS as 1? It's a shame you can't cheak the total shutter count on the newer bodies, maybe Canon have done that to deter people from buying used? I recently got a used 6D that's only got around 25k shutter count.

 

[entoman]

Why isn't IBIS (and OIS) enabled for video on the R5? The whole "wobble" issue for wide angle video is due to IBIS as far as I know.
The R5c doesn't have IBIS though.

I may have misunderstood the R5 instruction manual, which is a bit ambiguous as it only mentions IS, rather than IBIS, in the video section.

 

[entoman]

I've always wondered what is considered one actuation as well. Mechanical on a mirrorless might count as 2 actuation's and EFCS as 1? It's a shame you can't cheak the total shutter count on the newer bodies, maybe Canon have done that to deter people from buying used? I recently got a used 6D that's only got around 25k shutter count.

I haven't tried it, but in theory you can check shutter count on R series bodies.

Here e.g. is a link to a R5 shutter counter: https://shuttercount.cam/canon-eos-r5/

Apparently it counts in units of 1000, so you'll see a result such as "<6000".

 

[koenkooi]

I've always wondered what is considered one actuation as well. Mechanical on a mirrorless might count as 2 actuation's and EFCS as 1? It's a shame you can't cheak the total shutter count on the newer bodies, maybe Canon have done that to deter people from buying used? I recently got a used 6D that's only got around 25k shutter count.

When using the shutter count app on my mac, it doesn’t count ES shots, only EFCS shots. I don’t use MS, so I don’t know how it counts those.
My R5 camera trap got stuck, a snail crawled onto the IR trigger, and it took 5000 pictures overnight. The shutter count app showed a 5k increase, which matched the number of images on the cards.

 

[cayenne]

You're right. It had better picture, sound, more robust design of the cartridges and lasted more plays. But I agree that the record length limit (even if they improved it later) lost them the war.

Well, that and the porn industry centered on the VHS format...that kinda pushed things too.

 

[SwissFrank]

corporate... significant... stable... anticipate... synergy

BINGO! Who else filled in their Managementspeak bingo card by the third paragraph?

 

[Czardoom]

I don't know about Duane Paton, but I personally know several birders who use a9ii and a1 bodies with the Sony 200-600mm, and use them for hours at a time without any issues. I also have a pal who uses both a Canon R6 and a Sony a7Riv, so has no axe to grind, and tells me they are both equally easy and comfortable to use.

Another pal of mine bought a secondhand 1Dx, having convinced himself that it was perfect for his needs. He's a big strong lad, but 6 months later he sold it and said it was too heavy to use for more than half an hour. I borrowed his camera a couple of times and found it extremely comfortable for the first few minutes, due to the big grip and wide control placement, but ridiculously heavy, and too cumbersome for regular use.

Personally, I found all my own Canon DSLRs comfortable (50D, 40D, 7D, 7DMkii, 6D, 5DMkiii, 5DSR, 5DMkiv), and I'm extremely pleased with my R5. On the other hand I borrowed an RP from another friend, and found it fiddly and uncomfortable to use with anything bigger than a kit zoom. I also borrowed the original R, and strongly disliked the swipe bar, and found it too easy to nudge accidentally. That swipe bar was almost universally condemned by reviewers and users.

It isn't as back and white as saying brand A has good ergonomics and brand B has bad ergonomics.

It all boils down to individual preferences, which are largely based on how much extended use a person has had with a particular brand or model. Any modern MILC from Canon, Nikon, Sony, Panasonic or OM Systems is capable of stunning photos, and after a short period of adaptation, any photographer should be able to use them intuitively and without discomfort.

Brand loyalty and internet warfare have led to a lot of people "taking sides" and condemning other people's choices, without any experience of the gear they are condemning. A lot of it is stirred up by internet influencers and by people desperate to defend their own purchasing decisions.

I recommend going to any store that sells cameras and hold a Canon and hold a Sony. Anyone who says they are equally comfortable to hold is not paying attention. The poor ergonomics of Sony cameras has been an issue for many since day 1 of their FF cameras. They are not contoured to fit a person;s hand. This is not an opinion, but a fact. Whether they are comfortable enough to hold without issue is of course personal opinion and not black and white.

The swipe bar of the Canon was criticized by many. Upon closer examination, almost all of those that complained about it, did not understand how it could be customized because they never read the manual. I customized mine to work just like a button. Not a great feature, but another button is not usually something people complain about.

Yes, every camera is capable of shooting great photos. Sony has always had class leading sensors and excellent AF for wildlife. But there still are differences between brands and ergonomics is one of those differences.

 

[entoman]

I recommend going to any store that sells cameras and hold a Canon and hold a Sony. Anyone who says they are equally comfortable to hold is not paying attention. The poor ergonomics of Sony cameras has been an issue for many since day 1 of their FF cameras. They are not contoured to fit a person;s hand. This is not an opinion, but a fact. Whether they are comfortable enough to hold without issue is of course personal opinion and not black and white.

The swipe bar of the Canon was criticized by many. Upon closer examination, almost all of those that complained about it, did not understand how it could be customized because they never read the manual. I customized mine to work just like a button. Not a great feature, but another button is not usually something people complain about.

Yes, every camera is capable of shooting great photos. Sony has always had class leading sensors and excellent AF for wildlife. But there still are differences between brands and ergonomics is one of those differences.

I've gone further than merely visiting a store and comparing Sony and Canon in my hand. I've actually owned and extensively used both brands - including a700, a99, a7Riii, 50D, 6D, 7D, 7Dii, 5Diii, 5DSR, 5Div, R5, RP. Also several Nikon and Olympus.

I certainly *prefer* Canon ergonomics, but that's to a large degree because I've had 12 years of experience shooting Canons on an almost daily basis. But the "issues" with Sony ergonomics are greatly exaggerated, and although you may disagree with their opinion, there are a huge number of Sony owners who are absolutely happy with their cameras.

Of course there are "differences" between brands, and people's priorities will vary. Some will claim that Canon "cripples" cameras and that they are overpriced. Others, like myself, are happy to pay a bit extra for the better ergonomics and aren't bothered by Canon's product segmentation policy. Likewise, some users of other brands will say that Sony has terrible ergonomics, even though they've probably never used one. Others will say that they find the ergonomics perfectly satisfactory, and that Sony's AF and sensor tech outweighs any negative ergonomic aspects.

Most of the complainers, whether they're complaining about Canon "crippling" or Sony ergonomics, are prejudiced due to "brand loyalty" or "fanboyism". Some of these guys may have picked up cameras from the "opposition" and handled them briefly in a store. Very few of them have extensively used the "other" brand which they criticise.