Canon releases an official statement about the EOS R5 and EOS R6 heat concerns

herein2020

Run | Gun Shooter
Mar 13, 2020
267
364
Your car probably WOULD overheat or malfunction if you put the pedal to the floor for 20 straight minutes...that's what 8k 30/4k 120/4k 60/4k 30 HQ represent. Powerful computers without cooling do, as well. Copiers have a "duty cycle" that represents an approx. number of pages per month they can handle, and if you repeatedly and significantly exceed that, it increases the likelihood that it will break down (and can make you ineligible for a warranty replacement of the consumables).

Actually it wouldn't...want to know why, because modern cars have rev limiters and speed limiters to make sure they are reliable and they do not overheat. If you drive any modern car at top speed for 20 min and it overheats then you need to get a new car because it means either the rev limiter or speed limiter are not doing their job.

I get all modern equipment has well documented constraints on use....specifically though....thermal shutdown concerns are unique because many factors can make the actual time of shutdown vary widely. You can predict a copier will break down because you printed too much, you can predict a car will break down because you ran over a pothole, you cannot predict how close you will come to a thermal shutdown prior to a video shoot.

In fact, if you drove any modern car at top speed for every single day of its existence right up until the warranty expired....if it overheated even once you would still be covered by the warranty. That's because you were still driving it within the specifications set forth by the manufacturer and those parameters are enforced by the speed limiter and rev limiter.
 

twoheadedboy

EOS R5
CR Pro
Jan 3, 2018
277
416
Kenosha, WI
Actually it wouldn't...want to know why, because modern cars have rev limiters and speed limiters to make sure they are reliable and they do not overheat. If you drive any modern car at top speed for 20 min and it overheats then you need to get a new car because it means either the rev limiter or speed limiter are not doing their job. I get all modern equipment has well documented constraints on use....specifically though....thermal shutdown concerns are unique because many factors can make the actual time of shutdown vary widely. You can predict a copier will break down because you printed too much, you can predict a car will break down because you ran over a pothole, you cannot predict how close you will come to a thermal shutdown prior to a video shoot.

So in bringing up "rev limiters", you're essentially arguing that the camera shouldn't have been released with the higher-res, but limited, recording modes - that's fine, but that's a difference of opinion, not a scenario where anyone's been misled. And you can actually predict how much time you have before you have to pause due to heat because the camera tells you that before you start.
 
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herein2020

Run | Gun Shooter
Mar 13, 2020
267
364
So in bringing up "rev limiters", you're essentially arguing that the camera shouldn't have been released with the higher-res, but limited, recording modes - that's fine, but that's a difference of opinion, not a scenario where anyone's been misled. And you can actually predict how much time you have before you have to pause due to heat because the camera tells you that before you start.

Yes you are absolutely correct, I believe Canon should not have released a camera that had uncontrolled heat issues. Reliability is more important to people who make a living doing this than niche features that gives you bragging rights. They could have done many things...released a separate camera with a bigger body and a fan (Panasonic S1H style), simply not included the features that it could not reliably support, or set hard limits that are so low it is more likely to hit the hard limit way before the thermal limit (i.e limit certain modes to 60s or 120s).

I do applaud them for adding a feature that seems to countdown how much time is remaining based on the current temperature, at least this adds some clarity, but you still won't have a clue what that countdown will say until you are on set and filming.

I have never said they misled anyone, Canon never said this was a Cinema camera replacement or that 8K would be unlimited, I do think they were contradictory at times by so heavily hyping video features that they knew were thermally limited, but I don't think Canon misled anyone at all....as I previously stated I just think people are taking it too easy on Canon because they documented their thermal problems but they are ignoring the fact that no other industry considers uncontrolled overheating acceptable.
 
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miketcool

EOS 90D
Jun 29, 2017
190
381
The R5 is a killer B-Cam tool to have. I plan on using it as a cinema B-Cam when filming, but as my main stills camera when shooting. That means in documentary work, it’ll get dual use. It should be noted that “15 minutes” of 4K@120fps is actually an hour of playback. I have never shot a slow motion scene for longer than 1 minute.
 
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twoheadedboy

EOS R5
CR Pro
Jan 3, 2018
277
416
Kenosha, WI
Yes you are absolutely correct, I believe Canon should not have released a camera that had uncontrolled heat issues. Reliability is more important to people who make a living doing this than niche features that gives you bragging rights. They could have done many things...released a separate camera with a bigger body and a fan (Panasonic S1H style), simply not included the features that it could not reliably support, or set hard limits that are so low it is more likely to hit the hard limit way before the thermal limit (i.e limit certain modes to 60s or 120s).

I do applaud them for adding a feature that seems to countdown how much time is remaining based on the current temperature, at least this adds some clarity, but you still won't have a clue what that countdown will say until you are on set and filming.

Considering the reports indicating preorders exceeding expectations, most people don't agree with you. I really don't get the level of vitriol surrounding the limitations - which are physical, not a "rev rate limiter". If the limitations don't suit you, don't use the formats (the lower ones are still there, including 4k 30p non-HQ), or buy a product that suits your needs more closely.
 
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bergstrom

Photographer
Feb 23, 2015
383
243
im just interested in knowing what 8k camera, with unlimited recording time, everyone is planning to buy today.

8k is so yesterday! 16k baby!! I mean where does this HD stuff stop. How many K's do you need. In 10 years time are we going to be on 32k??
 

herein2020

Run | Gun Shooter
Mar 13, 2020
267
364
Considering the reports indicating preorders exceeding expectations, most people don't agree with you. I really don't get the level of vitriol surrounding the limitations - which are physical, not a "rev rate limiter". If the limitations don't suit you, don't use the formats (the lower ones are still there, including 4k 30p non-HQ), or buy a product that suits your needs more closely.

Preorders don't mean anything, they can be cancelled at anytime, and most of them were probably placed well before the issues were public. It will take at least a year or two before anyone knows how severe this problem is or how many people "agree with me". Financial revenue is the ultimate indicator of worldwide pleasure or displeasure and is the only reason we even have a R5 or R6 that can be pre-ordered.

Maybe it will amount to absolutely nothing, maybe it will be a huge issue that gets so much bad press Canon finds a way to fix it via firmware or releases new hardware...there is absolutely no way this early in the game to know what will happen.

I don't consider voicing an opinion in a non derogatory way vitriol at all. Over the years I have learned plenty from forums and I've even based some of my viewpoints on other people's opinions that I decided was logical, I don't see anything wrong at all in voicing your opinion even if you have already decided a product is not for you.

I decided the R5 and R6 were not for me the minute I saw neither offer backup recording. Clearly I am in the minority and that is fine, but that doesn't prevent me from continuing to voice my opinion on where I feel they failed in the thermal control department.
 

Ramage

EOS R5
CR Pro
Aug 27, 2019
590
1,212
Yes you are absolutely correct, I believe Canon should not have released a camera that had uncontrolled heat issues. Reliability is more important to people who make a living doing this than niche features that gives you bragging rights. They could have done many things...released a separate camera with a bigger body and a fan (Panasonic S1H style), simply not included the features that it could not reliably support, or set hard limits that are so low it is more likely to hit the hard limit way before the thermal limit (i.e limit certain modes to 60s or 120s).

I do applaud them for adding a feature that seems to countdown how much time is remaining based on the current temperature, at least this adds some clarity, but you still won't have a clue what that countdown will say until you are on set and filming.

I have never said they misled anyone, Canon never said this was a Cinema camera replacement or that 8K would be unlimited, I do think they were contradictory at times by so heavily hyping video features that they knew were thermally limited, but I don't think Canon misled anyone at all....as I previously stated I just think people are taking it too easy on Canon because they documented their thermal problems but they are ignoring the fact that no other industry considers uncontrolled overheating acceptable.
I was not going to feed the troll but "uncontrolled heat issues" WTF is wrong with your ability to understand that Thermal Protection is by definition CONTROLLING THE HEAT.

Seems like you are almost there with understanding the countdown timer and I suspect that given enough time you will get it but damn... Uncontrolled heat...
 
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herein2020

Run | Gun Shooter
Mar 13, 2020
267
364
I was not going to feed the troll but "uncontrolled heat issues" WTF is wrong with your ability to understand that Thermal Protection is by definition CONTROLLING THE HEAT.

Seems like you are almost there with understand the countdown timer and I suspect that given enough time you will get it but damn... Uncontrolled heat...

Ahh there's the vitriol...but ok...let me define uncontrolled heat issues for you: If a product cannot dissipate heat as fast as it generates it and must shut down due to overheating while using it within the manufacturers guidelines that is called uncontrolled heat issues.

Does your car overheat when using it within manufacturers specifications, does ANY other equipment you own overheat when using them as they were intended? Thermal protection is NOT controlling the heat..it is shutting down the camera because it cannot control the heat. Controlling the heat would be enabling sufficient cooling so that the operation of the camera was not impacted...get it now?

What would happen if nuclear reactors had to shut down every few hours due to overheating, would you think that was acceptable as long as they told you beforehand that you were going to lose power in your house?
 
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cornieleous

5D4 + R5
Jul 13, 2020
208
737
You are absolutely right...I did pick out of the press release from Canon the part of their press release that contradicts the reality of their second press release about overheating. If I agree with the rest of a narrative but am pointing out the parts that I disagree with why would I restate the obvious? Of course they also said it could be used as a support camera..so what we all know that already, and I have no problems with that part of their narrative. A camera that overheats in 30 seconds can be used as a support camera if you only need a 29 second clip.

My point was they did not stop there and they also said it could be the primary camera for a production.....this part of their narrative does not match the part where it will probably overheat when doing the things that a primary camera on a production is expected to do based on the paper specs we have been provided so far.

And BTW it is working out for me great...my bank account and my wallet thank Canon for making it easy for me to sit this one out. If real world reports show the whole thing is overblown and Canon adds backup video recording to the R6 then I'm back in the race. I am not trying to convince anyone of anything, I never even intended to get the R5 all I'm pointing out is that everyone is giving Canon a pass because they are documenting their overheating issues when we all had a good laugh at Sony when they had overheating issues.

What other industry in the world would just accept overheating when using a feature that was provided by the manufacturer as normal? Would you be OK if you bought a brand new car but it came with a warning that it would overheat every 50 miles and that you would have to wait 20min for it to cool down so that you could drive 5 more miles? We all love Canon here but come on....overheating in any context means the manufacturer did not do what was needed to prevent it...just because it is documented does not mean it has to be considered acceptable.

Here we go again with '8K is normal" and should work for infinity in a tiny body for a low price. It's not just acceptable but desirable to be irrational these days, apparently. No one is giving anyone a pass and blasting generalizations about people you disagree with is never a good start. Most of us are being reasonable about a new technology while you are expecting Canon to defy the laws of physics and to personally provide you with the impossible for whatever price you think is fair. You think they should have 'done what was needed' to stop overheating even if that would require compromising the entire rest of the camera, and for what? WHO, rationally, is shooting 8K or oversampled 4K60 indefinitely? Did you whine endlessly when Sony put out one of the first 4K MILC and it overheated? Did you call it a lemon moan about it? Are you on the AMD or Intel forums complaining that you should be able to overclock to 6 GHz or else their latest chip is a lemon? Like to see the cryogenic heatsink you think they should bolt onto their processor because overclocking to the end of what is possible is "normal operation".

Name one other camera that can shove out as much video data as the R5 will in a MILC and not overheat? There are none. The closest is the SH1, with its 6K, a fan, crappy focus, and a lot of engineering compromises and undesirable lens lineup, plus it costs more and lacks 8K. Heat is a basic problem for all electronics- lots of transistors reading out big sensors at fast rates means heat. Clearly you know nothing about the details of how anything works or why there is a limitation on the R5 and R6, albeit a pretty irrelevant one for most of us.

Imagine you even tried to use the R5: Do you even own a multi thousand dollar computer that can handle the 8K or oversampled 4K editing workflow? I have a fairly high spec. machine with lots of CPU, GPU, SSD, and RAM, and it is not ready for 8K without lots of time spent coding proxies and a heck of a lot more SSD project space. Do you have a single 700 dollar memory card to record just 20 minutes of 8K? How many were you going to get before you invest in a dedicated cinema camera and recorder? Where are your 8K monitors? How much hard drive do you have in raid arrays? I have 32TB and that won't be enough for an 8K project of any length, especially not with all my other data and projects.

These new R5/6 cameras can indeed be used on a production alone- by professionals with shot lists who don't just run their camera perpetually in ridiculous resolutions for long periods of time for no reason like some first day wedding photographer. The vast majority of professionals understand basic physics of electronics and that all tools have limitations. They probably have budgets to buy whatever is needed to utilize this tool realistically- like maybe a second body because even if you can shoot an 8K or 4K60 production with one camera, that is a really limited approach for most scenarios and if you are shooting a project that actually needs that resolution or rate, you probably are doing something really expensive anyway.

From the vast majority of complaints about an unshipped camera, It seems to be only complete amateurs who want a cinema camera they can use as a GoPro who have so many problems with this release. That or youtube shills who make their living with baseless opinions and controversy (sellouts, not real creatives). Truly, no one is interested in you sitting this one out, who cares?! You act like you are so intellectually superior but didn't make one cogent argument. You are so obviously being irrational and seem to be one of those perpetually entitled negative people. As if Canon has slighted you personally.

Your car analogy is the worst logical fallacy I have seen in a long while; what a ridiculous comparison. Brand new technology is in no way normal or perfect. If you want a comparable car analogy talk about new features that are firsts: look at how many infotainment systems have issues on first model years, or how sensing and driver assist systems of some brands were so awful as to be dangerous when first rolled out; and some still are. New features that push the envelope of what is possible are never as good as they will be with refinement- DUH! Engineering is actually pretty hard despite the spoiled masses having the result handed to them as if it was nothing. In any product be it a bridge, car, or camera, compromises must always be made to get a product to market. If I had it my way, the fruits of engineering and science would be banned and denied to the self entitled complaining masses who regard technology as magic and think they are always owed more for less. Let those whiners use sticks and stones or invent their own tools.

The bottom line is, by any reasonable accounting, these new R cameras are fantastic stills camera at the same price point roughly as their predecessors with some cutting edge, capable, and very usable video features for the vast majority of realistic use cases. Yet you present it as if its some lemon car....
 
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Kit.

EOS 5D Mark IV
Apr 25, 2011
2,232
1,547
Actually it wouldn't...want to know why, because modern cars have rev limiters and speed limiters to make sure they are reliable and they do not overheat.
The engines don't.
The brakes do.

So, the engines go "Canon", the brakes go "Sony".
 
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Tangent

EOS 90D
Nov 13, 2015
142
96
It wasn't that long ago that we complained when Canon withheld 4K due to overheating issues. Now Canon gives us 8K functionality but expects users to work within its limits. I prefer this latter approach.

I think it's reasonable to expect that someone who forks over thousands for a camera body will take the time to familiarize themselves with its operational parameters. Or, more simply, RTFM. (Read The Furnished Manual -- and supporting tech notes.)
 
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Jul 15, 2020
2
0
I haven’t read through all the comments on this thread but did you all know that not all, or possibly any current, CFExpress cards work with 8K Raw? I was able to have hands on time today with a production unit and when I asked the Canon rep why 8K recording didn’t work he said that a lot of current CFExpress cards don’t work because the write speeds are actually much lower than what is stated. He could not recommend any current CFExpress card that would definitely work with 8K.
 
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herein2020

Run | Gun Shooter
Mar 13, 2020
267
364
Here we go again with '8K is normal" and should work for infinity in a tiny body for a low price. It's not just acceptable but desirable to be irrational these days, apparently. No one is giving anyone a pass and blasting generalizations about people you disagree with is never a good start. Most of us are being reasonable about a new technology while you are expecting Canon to defy the laws of physics and to personally provide you with the impossible for whatever price you think is fair. You think they should have 'done what was needed' to stop overheating even if that would require compromising the entire rest of the camera, and for what? WHO, rationally, is shooting 8K or oversampled 4K60 indefinitely? Did you whine endlessly when Sony put out one of the first 4K MILC and it overheated? Did you call it a lemon moan about it? Are you on the AMD or Intel forums complaining that you should be able to overclock to 6 GHz or else their latest chip is a lemon? Like to see the cryogenic heatsink you think they should bolt onto their processor because overclocking to the end of what is possible is "normal operation".

Name one other camera that can shove out as much video data as the R5 will in a MILC and not overheat? There are none. The closest is the SH1, with its 6K, a fan, crappy focus, and a lot of engineering compromises and undesirable lens lineup, plus it costs more and lacks 8K. Heat is a basic problem for all electronics- lots of transistors reading out big sensors at fast rates means heat. Clearly you know nothing about the details of how anything works or why there is a limitation on the R5 and R6, albeit a pretty irrelevant one for most of us.

Imagine you even tried to use the R5: Do you even own a multi thousand dollar computer that can handle the 8K or oversampled 4K editing workflow? I have a fairly high spec. machine with lots of CPU, GPU, SSD, and RAM, and it is not ready for 8K without lots of time spent coding proxies and a heck of a lot more SSD project space. Do you have a single 700 dollar memory card to record just 20 minutes of 8K? How many were you going to get before you invest in a dedicated cinema camera and recorder? Where are your 8K monitors? How much hard drive do you have in raid arrays? I have 32TB and that won't be enough for an 8K project of any length, especially not with all my other data and projects.

These new R5/6 cameras can indeed be used on a production alone- by professionals with shot lists who don't just run their camera perpetually in ridiculous resolutions for long periods of time for no reason like some first day wedding photographer. The vast majority of professionals understand basic physics of electronics and that all tools have limitations. They probably have budgets to buy whatever is needed to utilize this tool realistically- like maybe a second body because even if you can shoot an 8K or 4K60 production with one camera, that is a really limited approach for most scenarios and if you are shooting a project that actually needs that resolution or rate, you probably are doing something really expensive anyway.

From the vast majority of complaints about an unshipped camera, It seems to be only complete amateurs who want a cinema camera they can use as a GoPro who have so many problems with this release. That or youtube shills who make their living with baseless opinions and controversy (sellouts, not real creatives). Truly, no one is interested in you sitting this one out, who cares?! You act like you are so intellectually superior but didn't make one cogent argument. You are so obviously being irrational and seem to be one of those perpetually entitled negative people. As if Canon has slighted you personally.

Your car analogy is the worst logical fallacy I have seen in a long while; what a ridiculous comparison. Brand new technology is in no way normal or perfect. If you want a comparable car analogy talk about new features that are firsts: look at how many infotainment systems have issues on first model years, or how sensing and driver assist systems of some brands were so awful as to be dangerous when first rolled out; and some still are. New features that push the envelope of what is possible are never as good as they will be with refinement- DUH! Engineering is actually pretty hard despite the spoiled masses having the result handed to them as if it was nothing. In any product be it a bridge, car, or camera, compromises must always be made to get a product to market. If I had it my way, the fruits of engineering and science would be banned and denied to the self entitled complaining masses who regard technology as magic and think they are always owed more for less. Let those whiners use sticks and stones or invent their own tools.

The bottom line is, by any reasonable accounting, these new R cameras are fantastic stills camera at the same price point roughly as their predecessors with some cutting edge, capable, and very usable video features for the vast majority of realistic use cases. Yet you present it as if its some lemon car....

You start off talking about 8K and ignoring all the other modes that causes it to overheat. But none of that is relevant to me, I couldn't care less about 8k; your entire narrative boils down to the fact that you agree stability should be scarified for the sake of innovation and I disagree. Canon has always been known for stability....clearly this time around they chose to sacrifice that for innovation, only time will tell if they made the right decision. The rest of your rant isn't worth reading or responding to. For me it still comes down to one simple missing feature in the R6 otherwise I would have been willing to give it a try for real world performance.
 

zim

EOS 5D Mark IV
CR Pro
Oct 18, 2011
2,129
318
I haven’t read through all the comments on this thread but did you all know that not all, or possibly any current, CFExpress cards work with 8K Raw? I was able to have hands on time today with a production unit and when I asked the Canon rep why 8K recording didn’t work he said that a lot of current CFExpress cards don’t work because the write speeds are actually much lower than what is stated. He could not recommend any current CFExpress card that would definitely work with 8K.
And yet what seems like the whole world is out there recording 8k and setting fire to things.... :unsure:
 
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gmon750

EOS 90D
CR Pro
Jan 30, 2015
128
82
I find the heat issue very disturbing. There is a need to have this small sized camera for video work on a gimbal. Few years back I used 7DII to shoot TEDx conference. It was one time job in a life. But I did it. I'll still wait for a full frame camera with interchangeable lens that can shoot 4K/60, unlimited recording time and a decent codec. The R mount and drop in filter adapters could solve even the ND issue on DSLRs. With little money we could add that feature found in cinema cameras. But, I guess, Cannon won't offer this for a low price. 1DXIII has no issues regarding overheating. R6, instead, for less money, with the same sensor, has this problem. Finally everything is about marketing, about money. I'm happy that Canon somehow answered. It's a shame.
EDIT: overheating is real:
The overheating is real for just about every camera that shoots 4K.

People are just making it a bigger deal because it's Canon. It's a non-issue for most buyers of this camera.
 
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Drcampbellicu

EOS 90D
Jul 31, 2019
127
90
We don’t have all the information but canon is implying that the camera may need to shut down due to heat. If you shoot 20 min videos then you could just switch the card out but when it’s a heat issue you have to turn off the camera and let it rest. Or use another camera
It’s really different

8K and 4K120 have to be done internally, but even wih the biggest CFExpress card, you'll hit the recording limit or fill the card about the same time this single continuous shot overheating issue becomes a problem... So What are you really missing? And again, I've never run across a situation where I'd single shot 4k120 for 30 mins anyhow.

And for all the other modes, if you're buying a $600 CFExpress card at 512MB... why not just buy a $600 Ninja? You're buying other equipment anyway with CFExpress.
 

GoldWing

Canon EOS 1DXMKII
Oct 19, 2013
356
250
Los Angeles, CA
en.wikipedia.org

If you shoot in the tropics as we do this issue was prevalent in the first copies of the Canon 1DXMKII's and Canon fixed it. Actually they replaced those copies so we're not aware of how they fixed it but they did.

I would not worry as Canon is very good at addressing issues like this and standing 100% behind the product if it has a fault.

I would however say, there are so many better solutions for video and if you shoot in a warm or tropical climate, this should not be your first choice.

However, if you're married to it.... Let Canon keep fixing it until it works.

Good luck
 
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