Canon to release major firmware update for the Canon EOS R5

[Bonich]

Well...

Your post I replied to read a bit different though. You wrote "hyped by the media", implying that the need is not real, just a fad.

So sorry if I misunderstood you, but the post I replied to had a very different vibe from this one.

In any case, as I wrote, it's entirely your prerogative to decide how many mps are enough or too many for you.

For me, I can totally be fine with 45, but I'd be happier with 200+

Me coming back from a shooting with 10k frames the R5 is already no fun compared to a 24 or 30MPX camera.
200+ MPX would generate something like a nightmare.
The IQ is mostly not limited by 45MPX but by atmosphere, movement, lens, DOF, ....

200MPX might be great for landscape & things, best on a bigger sensor ....

 

[koenkooi]

You are right the reduced bit depth to be a contribution to max readout speed.
This is why I think to have a "slow mode" for frame rates less than 10 FPS to be separated from high frame rates (incl. video) would make more sense than coupling bit depth to shutter mode.
I would like to shoot exposure bracketing, focus bracketing, time lapses, long exposures, .... all with pure electronic shutter but at max bit depth.
There is no technical limitation hindering this strategy, simply implementation issues while writing SW.

Canon has resisted implementing things that force additional choices into users, especially when it comes to making quality trade-offs. I suspect Canon wants to keep the user experience as simple as they can get away with, at the cost of 'removing' options like 14-bit ES modes with high rolling shutter.

Seeing how a large section of users is still confused about things CRAW vs RAW and most recently the "R8 has no mechanical shutter" item, I understand where Canon is coming from. I've argued for removing certain features from products we developed at work for exactly those reasons: it makes things worse for 90% of the users and puts too much pressure on the support department. "I selected the high quality mode and all the backgrounds are slanted!!!! YOU RUINED THE PICTURES!!!"

Having said that, I, personally, would like to have an 'advanced' mode where such options are available. Especially for the items you listed, like focus and exposure bracketing. I'd even appreciate an 11-bit or even 10-bit option for fast moving things, like insect wings.

 

[Rofocale]

Unless this update finds a way to unlock more dynamic range in videos, no amount of tertiary features being added is going to make me unlisted this camera for sale. Bit disappointing when even the cheapest Sony alternative is markedly better. Oh well, here’s to the next cycle being better.

 

[Michael Clark]

I don't know much about how sports photographers and PJs work, but they could output JPEGs when they need to push out images quickly.

They already do. Many shoot straight to JPEG. But in crowded stadiums with 100,000+ phones competing for every bit of bandwidth on the cellular networks in the area, even a 20MP JPEG can be excruciatingly slow to transmit, if it doesn't drop out halfway through.

 

[blobmonster]

It should be easy to gather information about nearest-eye priority from youtube videos or from the instruction manual, so why didn't you download the manual and read it, and check out a few videos before committing to a purchase?

I know several R6 users who shoot via the EVF and keep the screen folded to protect it, only folding it out when reviewing, and none of them have mapped the function to a button, they just choose the appropriate menu item. Suggest you check the manual.

I probably should check the manual, you're right.

The eye af is okay if the screen is visible, because you can use touch and drag to move the starting point. You can't do this with the josystick afaik, but you ca use the joystick to select a different eye once one is found. 'Nearest eye' would be a nice feature for a firmware update but I can understand it not being in. That's Canon's call, and I don't buy Canon expecting firmware updates.

I generally find it easier to learn a camera's capabilities by using it rather than reading a manual though, for example you wouldn't know from the manual about not being able to turn off the R6 screen, while still having it available for image review or using touch and drag for eye focus tracking adjustments. Nor would you know from having used Canon's DSLRs. I decided to buy the camera then sell it if necessary, rather than rent it and definitely waste money, or read for ages.

I can make the R6 work, but it doesn't make me very happy or comfortable, mainly because of this rear screen feature than was added to the R5 as a firmware update, but not the R6. For me, that says Canon doesn't really respect the R6 line but treats it more like a consumer camera. The lack of this option is ridiculous to me. It is so simple. I can understand paying more for the better EVF, more MP, top display etc, but I don't think the R6 should be missing an LCD screen info option being blank but still usable for touch and drag.

Its a bit frustrating to have to keep the screen closed so as not to be annoyed by it, that's all. It sounds like I'm not alone in this, yet Canon has not fixed it, (preferring instead to either baby R6 owners who may inadvertently turn off their screen and be confused, or perhaps assuming they will not know their settings given the lack of top panel screen, ridiculous attitude in such a camera and a market where they are no longer necessarily viewed as top dog.

It would be a chore to switch systems completely, but if I was starting again, for my needs and the good enough and generally smaller/ lighter GM prime lens options, I'd possibly choose Sony.

 

[Michael Clark]

As @koenkooi says, you are wrong.

I remembered that 11 years ago lensrentals had on their blog an article that discussed these points and concluded that Canon had changed over to a closed loop systems and better AF. https://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2012/08/autofocus-reality-part-3b-canon-cameras/

Well, kind of (more) closed-loop than before. The post 2010 lenses had more accurate focus position sensors that could confirm more accurately if the lens actually moved the distance it was instructed to move, and then the camera could read that and send an additional instruction to move any difference detected. But the mirror was still already swinging up with the PDAF sensor blind and unable to optically confirm anything, at least in continuous burst drive mode. At that time you still needed to use Live View with CDAF to get optical confirmation of sharpest focus. Roger talked about this a few times in comments on later blog entries, but a lot of those comments were wiped out when they moved the blog to a different host around 2015-16.

 

[Michael Clark]

Based on some back-of-the-envelope calculations, the bit depth/sensor mp/fps issue for Digic X is the bandwidth rather than sensor design/readout speed.
When comparing the R3 and R5 on mech/electronic shutter/bit depth/fps, they all come to about the same limit of ~11gb/second.

It's apparently the ADC that is the bandwidth bottleneck.

 

[Del Paso]

I'd love to have that increased precision, but for some reason, the triangles always indicate focus is achieved when it's actually back-focused. It's a great scratcher...

Not in my case. When focus indicates "sharp", subject is absolutely in focus...
Try to Mfa your lens, it could help.

 

[Loswr]

Try to Mfa your lens, it could help.

On an R body?

 

[Michael Clark]

You're right in that the computer analogy is better. So, what you're saying is that you have a 3070 and if you put 4090 drivers on it, it will somehow perform like the 4090. That's incorrect. Let's say you're correct at 14.6 stops. Clog2 is for cameras with 16+ You might 'feel' it give you more than clog3. You might prefer the way it initially looks as the gamma curve is different in the balance of shadows and mid tones. But that doesn't mean it's factually correct.

Let's say you have a sensor that can do 14.6 stops.

Let's say Clog2 can utilize up to 16 stops.

Let's say Clog3 can only utilize 11.5 stops.

Do you not see how Clog3 could also utilize all 14.6 stops the sensor can do, while Clog 3 can not and will pull the DR down to 11.5 stops?

 

[Scenes]

I’m not a video shooter, but when you make the claim that the R5 C has a different sensor than the R5, you pretty much trash your credibility across the board.

Canon says: “The EOS R5 C and the EOS R5 share the same 45MP full-frame CMOS sensor…”

Canon have also said in interviews they sensor and CPU are based on the R5 but are different.

 

[Loswr]

Canon have also said in interviews they sensor and CPU are based on the R5 but are different.

Can you cite a source for that?

 

[Michael Clark]

Unless this update finds a way to unlock more dynamic range in videos, no amount of tertiary features being added is going to make me unlisted this camera for sale. Bit disappointing when even the cheapest Sony alternative is markedly better. Oh well, here’s to the next cycle being better.

The Sony is definitely better with that rolling shutter effect if you want that retro 1920s everything vertical is tilted look.



But hey, it's all tilted in 14 glorious stops of DR before you put it into PhotoShop and make it look like a 6 stop 1920s sepia monochrome print with rips, tears, and coffee stains all over it.

 

[fr34k]

The eye af is okay if the screen is visible, because you can use touch and drag to move the starting point. You can't do this with the josystick afaik,

Please check the manual. (In this particular case pp. 781 -> activate the joystick)
Admittedly, I don't know why Canon would make the default "off" there...

 

[Michael Clark]

A major firmware update for the R5 in the Spring of 2023 might indicate the R5 Mark II may be later than previously expected.

I'd say this moves the R5 Mark II back to late 2024 at the earliest. Previous Canon bodies that got a v2.0 firmware update got them closer to two years before the replacement appeared than one year.

 

[DrD]

ProRes is a paid license.
I would never expect such a thing in a free firmware update.
It would be nice if Canon offered it as a paid update though.
I would still use a Ninja V anyway.

Ninja V/V+ are prosumer gadgets - single battery (cannot hot swap), single memory storage (again not interchangeable during recording), plastic body and screen brightness of 1000 nits (not 2500), no XLR mic inputs (no phantom power), no automatic SDI->HDMI or HDMI->SDI conversion et cetera ad nauseam. Video menu set will change on the R5, it has to, to keep pace with the competition. It may not get ProRes but could easily get additional compressed RAW (like BRAW) that provides a better trade-off between file size and ability to edit. VIDEO is the differentiating feature for all mirrorless cameras now. Same for the anticipated R1 flagship, if it does not beat the Z9 (8K 60) then it will be deemed a failure. Long lens photo-only camera users need to adjust to this new reality.

 

[entoman]

I probably should check the manual, you're right.

The eye af is okay if the screen is visible, because you can use touch and drag to move the starting point. You can't do this with the josystick afaik, but you ca use the joystick to select a different eye once one is found. 'Nearest eye' would be a nice feature for a firmware update but I can understand it not being in. That's Canon's call, and I don't buy Canon expecting firmware updates.

I generally find it easier to learn a camera's capabilities by using it rather than reading a manual though, for example you wouldn't know from the manual about not being able to turn off the R6 screen, while still having it available for image review or using touch and drag for eye focus tracking adjustments. Nor would you know from having used Canon's DSLRs. I decided to buy the camera then sell it if necessary, rather than rent it and definitely waste money, or read for ages.

I can make the R6 work, but it doesn't make me very happy or comfortable, mainly because of this rear screen feature than was added to the R5 as a firmware update, but not the R6. For me, that says Canon doesn't really respect the R6 line but treats it more like a consumer camera. The lack of this option is ridiculous to me. It is so simple. I can understand paying more for the better EVF, more MP, top display etc, but I don't think the R6 should be missing an LCD screen info option being blank but still usable for touch and drag.

Its a bit frustrating to have to keep the screen closed so as not to be annoyed by it, that's all. It sounds like I'm not alone in this, yet Canon has not fixed it, (preferring instead to either baby R6 owners who may inadvertently turn off their screen and be confused, or perhaps assuming they will not know their settings given the lack of top panel screen, ridiculous attitude in such a camera and a market where they are no longer necessarily viewed as top dog.

It would be a chore to switch systems completely, but if I was starting again, for my needs and the good enough and generally smaller/ lighter GM prime lens options, I'd possibly choose Sony.

Cameras are very complex to design and manufacture, so it's inevitable that there will be bugs or things that get overlooked. I don't know if this issue bothers other R6 users, you are the first I've heard complaining about it, but if it causes problems to a lot of folk, maybe all try writing to Canon, talking to Canon reps, bombarding dpreview and other reviewers who'll give direct feedback to Canon? It'll be a lot more effective than a comment on CR. Good luck anyway.

ALL cameras have user-issues of one kind or another, that require workarounds or acceptance of their shortcomings, so honestly you'd be no better off with another brand. Just read the forums of other brands and you'll see stacks of complaints about all sorts of issues (some real, some imagined).

FWIW, I think the top plate LCD on the R5 is a pain, I much prefer the standard mode dial found on the R6, so getting a higher model in the range isn't always the answer, and doesn't indicate lack of respect for R6 users.

 

[AlanF]

FWIW, I think the top plate LCD on the R5 is a pain, I much prefer the standard mode dial found on the R6, so getting a higher model in the range isn't always the answer, and doesn't indicate lack of respect for R6 users.

It's funny that. I originally preferred the older physical mode dial but I now much prefer the new top plate as I have set the M-fn button to toggle through the C1, C2, C3 and Fv modes and I can do this far quicker than using muscle memory to twist the dial.

 

[entoman]

It's funny that. I originally preferred the older physical mode dial but I now much prefer the new top plate as I have set the M-fn button to toggle through the C1, C2, C3 and Fv modes and I can do this far quicker than using muscle memory to twist the dial.

It's just a matter of personal preference, I wasn't criticising the design per se.

Yes, I could overcome the minor frustration by using the M-fn button to toggle between modes, but we all customise our cameras in different ways, and in my case I prefer to use the M-fn to toggle rapidly between AF zones.

 

[Loswr]

FWIW, I think the top plate LCD on the R5 is a pain, I much prefer the standard mode dial found on the R6

Like most ergonomic issues, that’s definitely a personal preference.

With the R5-style mode selection (my R3 is the same), in the settings you can restrict the available modes to only those you actually use, then assign mode switching to the M.Fn button that is right next to the shutter release. Cycling through just four modes at the press a button is much faster for me than thumb-clicking through 11 options on a mode dial. I have had that setup since the 1D X, and it makes using the mode dial on my M6II feel kludgy and slow.