Canon to Surprise With New Mirrorless Camera

scyrene said:
AvTvM said:
DSLR-shaped and sized cameras luckily have no place in the mirrorless present and much less so in the future.

Wrong. As I and others have said before, we LIKE the DSLR form factor, and can't see how a tiny body could be used handheld with large lenses. Can you not see that OTHERS have different needs and desires from you?

Look long and hard at the plethora of film cameras that were out there....there were a LOT!!!! of different formats from micro sized instamatics to 8x10's..... The most popular of those formats was the 35mm camera.... and it made it to the top because the combination of price/performance/size/quality was the most popular. A heck of a lot of people liked the ergonomics of it and this is the reason why all those DSLRs have the form factor they have now... BECAUSE PEOPLE LIKE IT!

Human Factor engineering is a huge part of designing a successful product and this camera form factor has had 100 years of development to get where it is now. This is the future of mirrorless cameras, not toy cameras like the M.
 
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ChristopherMarkPerez said:
Have it your way. Certainly. By all means.

Just don't forget that data lags. OK? It reports - past tense. It's not a very good reflection of the present.

We'll see you in another 12 months to see how your "data" is doing, shall we?

actually in this case it doesn't. considering this is shipped data, not sales data.

MILC sales have been pretty static .. especially considering that canon is moving alot of MILC's into NA and also into Japan, and that Sony has flipped from shipping SLT's to flipping mirrorless, there really hasn't been much "growth".
 
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Don Haines said:
scyrene said:
AvTvM said:
DSLR-shaped and sized cameras luckily have no place in the mirrorless present and much less so in the future.

Wrong. As I and others have said before, we LIKE the DSLR form factor, and can't see how a tiny body could be used handheld with large lenses. Can you not see that OTHERS have different needs and desires from you?

Look long and hard at the plethora of film cameras that were out there....there were a LOT!!!! of different formats from micro sized instamatics to 8x10's..... The most popular of those formats was the 35mm camera.... and it made it to the top because the combination of price/performance/size/quality was the most popular. A heck of a lot of people liked the ergonomics of it and this is the reason why all those DSLRs have the form factor they have now... BECAUSE PEOPLE LIKE IT!

Human Factor engineering is a huge part of designing a successful product and this camera form factor has had 100 years of development to get where it is now. This is the future of mirrorless cameras, not toy cameras like the M.

I think in the not too distant future we will see cameras offered with the same basic specs but with different form factors. Small bodies and large bodies and other personal choices in ergonomics as well. Each year we get to the closer to the point where IQ is less of a concern and personal preferences will have a larger impact on sales.
 
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dilbert said:
rrcphoto said:
...
MILC sales have been pretty static, sorry i misspoke .. especially considering that canon is moving alot of MILC's into NA and also into Japan, and that Sony has flipped from shipping SLT's to flipping mirrorless, there really hasn't been much "growth".

And in this current market, "static" sales are better than what DSLRs are getting...

no, actually the market-share is what is pretty static. and as suggested, much of the shift really was sony, shifting shipments from SLT's to MILC's. other than that, the marketshare has floated around the 25% mark.

if you take into account that paradigm shift AND the fact that since CIPA started recorded data, Fuji, Canon and a few other Japan companies started shipping Mirrorless, it's safe to say that the real market hasn't grown that much for the vendors, if anything it's probably shrunk. since at the start it was 19%.

Sony's shift alone should have amounted to a 8-10% shift. (decrease in slt shipments, increase in mirrorless shipments)

which btw, is actually why sony's marketshare FELL after shifting over to mirrorless, and yet people want canon to do that.. funny fact.
 
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dilbert said:
Last time I saw a graph from CIPA, DSLR sales were in decline and mirrorless sales were flat.

Are there any newer graphs that show DSLR sales either plateauing or rising? Or mirrorless falling?

yeah, and the scales are way off too most cases.

the marketshare really hasn't changed that much over the course of 4 years.

some proponents like to exaggerate aspects but the reality is, that sony switch off it's mass DSLR shipment's, that would account for around and 10-18% drop in SLR shipments.

since it's shipments, one has to be aware that both canon AND nikon both have decreased their inventory on hand and ship more on demand then they did on the past.

CIPA started recording MILC / DSLR I think in the beginning of 2012 with 19% marketshare.

that did not have Fuji, Canon as the two notables, and sony was still shipping SLT's in mass quanitities

zip forward to the end of 2015.

Sony has flipped it's 13-18% marketshare over to mirrorless. Canon is now shipping MILC's, so is Fuji.

the total marketshare? 25%. as a matter of fact, since Sony flipped over to full time mirrorless in conjunction really with the A7 release (when you stopped seeing the junk slt's floating around) accounted for around a 3% shipment marketshare "step" and after that "step" it's basically been plateaued.

there's a few obvious "spikes" in shipments, surrounding new products - but some seem to be attributed to canon mass shipping versus any real trend.

so you do the math on that and tell me if it's really growing to you or even remaining static.

as a pure precentage, both have slide from their 2012 shipments, and keep in mind that we're also not including the fact that this is FOB prices, mirrorless at least in some areas of the world are viciously slashed in prices to compete in the market.

DSLR's have fallen the most percentage wise, however if you account for sony's SLT share, the percentages are actually not far off.

2012
2013 85% 84%
2014 65% 83% (18%)
2015*56% 78% (21%)

Note that in late 2013, sony flipped from SLT to mirrorless. both are within a 9-11% delta flip.

if you note, we see the biggest drop between 2013-2014 when sony essentially exited the DSLR market.

also 2015 data only includes 11 months, so DSLR may have stablized from 2014-15, now that the impact of sony is more static.

also consider these are shipments.

Shipments are also tied to new products. canon and nikon release most of thier cameras on three year or more cycles,so there is more of a ebb and flow to their shipments. where with so many companies in the small 25% niche, they are shipping on average 9 TIMES the new products per year than canon or nikon are.

and even with that, we're not seeing a considerable change.


and then you consider mount marketshare which has an big impact on whether people switch systems. the F and EF mount are growing at nearly three times the rate as all mirrorless mounts combined.

Even today.

that increases the used market, and the more locked in because just about any DSLR is "good enough" for most people now.

(there was alot of edits to this.. sorry)
 
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scyrene said:
Orangutan said:
3kramd5 said:
neuroanatomist said:
Many people believe 'alot' is a word and use it as such nowadays. Fo'shizzle!

Your just going have to give them they're allotment of pour grammar.

I agree, "alot" is not at all cromulent.

I find it embiggens any sentence actually.

Irregardless, I think you are all just disorientated. I'll just go back to working on my datumbase since it only has one record.
 
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LukasS said:
dilbert said:
Interesting grouping. Hadn't considered it before but Cinema EOS is also mirrorless. But if they're not going to play catch-up, then what? Leap frog to the front? Looking at one of the other threads, again a big difference between (say) Arri & Canon is sensor performance at high ISO/low light. When is Canon going to fix that?

Well, they are working on 8K so this decision may push more resources to R&D in that segment.

Canon have showed an end to end 8K system to be frank this maybe ideal for TV down the pike but for Cinema Super 35 will always be the limiting factor. Arri have a 65mm camera as well as full frame / open gate cameras which are ideal for anamorphic lenses which dont work on Super 35. Same is true for Red with the Weopon so Canon have a lot of convincing to do.
 
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Don Haines said:
scyrene said:
AvTvM said:
DSLR-shaped and sized cameras luckily have no place in the mirrorless present and much less so in the future.

Wrong. As I and others have said before, we LIKE the DSLR form factor, and can't see how a tiny body could be used handheld with large lenses. Can you not see that OTHERS have different needs and desires from you?

Look long and hard at the plethora of film cameras that were out there....there were a LOT!!!! of different formats from micro sized instamatics to 8x10's..... The most popular of those formats was the 35mm camera.... and it made it to the top because the combination of price/performance/size/quality was the most popular. A heck of a lot of people liked the ergonomics of it and this is the reason why all those DSLRs have the form factor they have now... BECAUSE PEOPLE LIKE IT!

Human Factor engineering is a huge part of designing a successful product and this camera form factor has had 100 years of development to get where it is now. This is the future of mirrorless cameras, not toy cameras like the M.

No, it has the form factor it currently has largely because back in the day SLRs were mostly male jewelry. So the stereotypical ideal camera has "masculine" features, such as exaggerated size, multiple grips and weight. They were intended to look "powerful" and "serious" so that men (the main market at the time) could project a similar image.
 
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Tugela said:
Don Haines said:
scyrene said:
AvTvM said:
DSLR-shaped and sized cameras luckily have no place in the mirrorless present and much less so in the future.

Wrong. As I and others have said before, we LIKE the DSLR form factor, and can't see how a tiny body could be used handheld with large lenses. Can you not see that OTHERS have different needs and desires from you?

Look long and hard at the plethora of film cameras that were out there....there were a LOT!!!! of different formats from micro sized instamatics to 8x10's..... The most popular of those formats was the 35mm camera.... and it made it to the top because the combination of price/performance/size/quality was the most popular. A heck of a lot of people liked the ergonomics of it and this is the reason why all those DSLRs have the form factor they have now... BECAUSE PEOPLE LIKE IT!

Human Factor engineering is a huge part of designing a successful product and this camera form factor has had 100 years of development to get where it is now. This is the future of mirrorless cameras, not toy cameras like the M.

No, it has the form factor it currently has largely because back in the day SLRs were mostly male jewelry. So the stereotypical ideal camera has "masculine" features, such as exaggerated size, multiple grips and weight. They were intended to look "powerful" and "serious" so that men (the main market at the time) could project a similar image.

Got any evidence to back that assertion up?
 
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Tugela said:
Don Haines said:
scyrene said:
AvTvM said:
DSLR-shaped and sized cameras luckily have no place in the mirrorless present and much less so in the future.

Wrong. As I and others have said before, we LIKE the DSLR form factor, and can't see how a tiny body could be used handheld with large lenses. Can you not see that OTHERS have different needs and desires from you?

Look long and hard at the plethora of film cameras that were out there....there were a LOT!!!! of different formats from micro sized instamatics to 8x10's..... The most popular of those formats was the 35mm camera.... and it made it to the top because the combination of price/performance/size/quality was the most popular. A heck of a lot of people liked the ergonomics of it and this is the reason why all those DSLRs have the form factor they have now... BECAUSE PEOPLE LIKE IT!

Human Factor engineering is a huge part of designing a successful product and this camera form factor has had 100 years of development to get where it is now. This is the future of mirrorless cameras, not toy cameras like the M.

No, it has the form factor it currently has largely because back in the day SLRs were mostly male jewelry. So the stereotypical ideal camera has "masculine" features, such as exaggerated size, multiple grips and weight. They were intended to look "powerful" and "serious" so that men (the main market at the time) could project a similar image.

Is that a 70-200 you're hiding, or are you just glad to see me?
 
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scyrene said:
Tugela said:
Don Haines said:
scyrene said:
AvTvM said:
DSLR-shaped and sized cameras luckily have no place in the mirrorless present and much less so in the future.

Wrong. As I and others have said before, we LIKE the DSLR form factor, and can't see how a tiny body could be used handheld with large lenses. Can you not see that OTHERS have different needs and desires from you?

Look long and hard at the plethora of film cameras that were out there....there were a LOT!!!! of different formats from micro sized instamatics to 8x10's..... The most popular of those formats was the 35mm camera.... and it made it to the top because the combination of price/performance/size/quality was the most popular. A heck of a lot of people liked the ergonomics of it and this is the reason why all those DSLRs have the form factor they have now... BECAUSE PEOPLE LIKE IT!

Human Factor engineering is a huge part of designing a successful product and this camera form factor has had 100 years of development to get where it is now. This is the future of mirrorless cameras, not toy cameras like the M.

No, it has the form factor it currently has largely because back in the day SLRs were mostly male jewelry. So the stereotypical ideal camera has "masculine" features, such as exaggerated size, multiple grips and weight. They were intended to look "powerful" and "serious" so that men (the main market at the time) could project a similar image.

Got any evidence to back that assertion up?
My friend, (5'4 and about 120 pounds soaking wet) loved the 8x10 and 4x5.........
 
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scyrene said:
Tugela said:
Don Haines said:
scyrene said:
AvTvM said:
DSLR-shaped and sized cameras luckily have no place in the mirrorless present and much less so in the future.

Wrong. As I and others have said before, we LIKE the DSLR form factor, and can't see how a tiny body could be used handheld with large lenses. Can you not see that OTHERS have different needs and desires from you?

Look long and hard at the plethora of film cameras that were out there....there were a LOT!!!! of different formats from micro sized instamatics to 8x10's..... The most popular of those formats was the 35mm camera.... and it made it to the top because the combination of price/performance/size/quality was the most popular. A heck of a lot of people liked the ergonomics of it and this is the reason why all those DSLRs have the form factor they have now... BECAUSE PEOPLE LIKE IT!

Human Factor engineering is a huge part of designing a successful product and this camera form factor has had 100 years of development to get where it is now. This is the future of mirrorless cameras, not toy cameras like the M.

No, it has the form factor it currently has largely because back in the day SLRs were mostly male jewelry. So the stereotypical ideal camera has "masculine" features, such as exaggerated size, multiple grips and weight. They were intended to look "powerful" and "serious" so that men (the main market at the time) could project a similar image.

Got any evidence to back that assertion up?

OM1 ::)
 
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I like mirrorless. Love the weight, form factor and all that stuff. Hate battery life and speed of the all scene. And what I hate the most - having both a Fuji X-T1 and x20 - is the focus confirmation for out of focus frames. Sure, it's accurate, sure the X-T1 EVF is great but shooting from the waist using the LCD and having focus confirmation for an out of focus image.. it's disappointing. Only happens in studio environments and low light but it's bad enough to ruin one shot. My client won't ever see some of his best shots because event at f/7.1 he remains a blur. I hope that Canon comes with some mirrorless stuff that at least is reliable (and it would be nice to have some film simulation modes because you really can't beat Fuji colors - even the provia default one).
 
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