Canon to Surprise With New Mirrorless Camera

[rrcphoto]

so domestically ..

Canon increased it's marketshare in P&S cameras, DSLR's and MILC's.

Ranked #1, #1, and #3 respectively.

all this angst that canon clearly doesn't know what they are doing and they are losing the market - sounds perhaps a little premature.

The fact that in MILC's they are selling more than Fuji, Panasonic, Nikon and Ricoh is rather interesting.

especially considering the limited product portfolio.

I would imagine the last thing that OM, Sony,etc wants canon to do - is start taking Mirrorless seriously in Japan, as they moved into #3 without even trying.

on other news, by doing some math .. Sony fell to 7.5% marketshare for ILC's domestically, against Canon's 43+%

(Sony 15.4% and Canon 37% respectively in 2014)

yes, the Sony model is certainly one to follow.

datasource:

CIPA data to determine japan MILC/DSLR marketshare
http://www.cipa.jp/stats/documents/e/d-2014_e.pdf
http://www.cipa.jp/stats/documents/e/d-201511_e.pdf

BCN awards for 2015 data
http://bcnranking.jp/award/gallery/2016/hard/index.html

and you can do the math yourself

 

[tpatana]

DSLR-shaped and sized cameras luckily have no place in the mirrorless present and much less so in the future.

Wrong. As I and others have said before, we LIKE the DSLR form factor, and can't see how a tiny body could be used handheld with large lenses. Can you not see that OTHERS have different needs and desires from you?

Look long and hard at the plethora of film cameras that were out there....there were a LOT!!!! of different formats from micro sized instamatics to 8x10's..... The most popular of those formats was the 35mm camera.... and it made it to the top because the combination of price/performance/size/quality was the most popular. A heck of a lot of people liked the ergonomics of it and this is the reason why all those DSLRs have the form factor they have now... BECAUSE PEOPLE LIKE IT!

Human Factor engineering is a huge part of designing a successful product and this camera form factor has had 100 years of development to get where it is now. This is the future of mirrorless cameras, not toy cameras like the M.

No, it has the form factor it currently has largely because back in the day SLRs were mostly male jewelry. So the stereotypical ideal camera has "masculine" features, such as exaggerated size, multiple grips and weight. They were intended to look "powerful" and "serious" so that men (the main market at the time) could project a similar image.

Got any evidence to back that assertion up?

My friend, (5'4 and about 120 pounds soaking wet) loved the 8x10 and 4x5.........

First time in my life shot 4x5 last weekend, and it was soooo awesome.

 

[Don Haines]

First time in my life shot 4x5 last weekend, and it was soooo awesome.

Did you play around with tilting the lens board and film plane? The effects are insanely incredible.... A canon T/S lens is only a fraction of the versatility....

 

[tpatana]

First time in my life shot 4x5 last weekend, and it was soooo awesome.

Did you play around with tilting the lens board and film plane? The effects are insanely incredible.... A canon T/S lens is only a fraction of the versatility....

Some amount in the end, first few hours was just trying to get something and hope they come ok. Just the focusing, framing, setting F and those took ages. And we didn't have any way to sync my strobes, so we went T-mode. One person press trigger. Second person manually triggers strobe, first person presses trigger again to close the shutter.

It was very interesting day, and great learning experience how cameras actually work. Now I can slightly better relate to the big names, how much work they have to go through to get the pics out good. I don't know yet if the focus was any good, or even if the flash power was proper range. Took total ~10 shots in time where my 1DX at a sport field would have taken 1000-2000.

Nowadays we take everything given. Most cameras just turn on green box and shoot away. 1DX doesn't have the green box, but you can still turn it quite automatic. Very interesting experience going exactly opposite.

 

[privatebydesign]

First time in my life shot 4x5 last weekend, and it was soooo awesome.

Did you play around with tilting the lens board and film plane? The effects are insanely incredible.... A canon T/S lens is only a fraction of the versatility....

The 24mm MkII and the 17 used with a geared head so you can emulate rear movements isn't that far off, the trouble is the reverse tilt aspect of retrofocus T/S lenses, comparatively little tilt degree range and limited past infinity focusing. For instance with forward tilt on the lens (particularly the 17) you need to put reverse tilt on the camera to keep verticals true, this can use up a good portion of the meager 8º of tilt angle. The other thing the TS-E's could do with is focusing much further past infinity, they go some way past but it would be nicer if they went further, particularly the 45 and 90, as this gives a lot of control over the angle of the plane of focus.

 

[deleteme]

We weren’t told much, but we were told that Canon will “surprise a lot of people” with one of their next mirrorless cameras.

Maybe the surprise will be an A7 with EF mount.

 

[deleteme]

No, it has the form factor it currently has largely because back in the day SLRs were mostly male jewelry. So the stereotypical ideal camera has "masculine" features, such as exaggerated size, multiple grips and weight. They were intended to look "powerful" and "serious" so that men (the main market at the time) could project a similar image.

Sorry to disagree but "back in the day" SLRs had the form they had because it was the shape necessary to enclose the mechanicals of the SLR. Makers used different styling and ergonomic approaches to differentiate their cameras and of course make them attractive. Rollei did try the cube format used by MF SLRs in its SL2000 but it was not successful for various reasons some having to do with the fact it did not have the traditional 35mm form.
SLRs became jewelry at the time of the AE-1 intro when ads of tennis pros using them were aired.

 

[nhz]

No, it has the form factor it currently has largely because back in the day SLRs were mostly male jewelry. So the stereotypical ideal camera has "masculine" features, such as exaggerated size, multiple grips and weight. They were intended to look "powerful" and "serious" so that men (the main market at the time) could project a similar image.

Sorry to disagree but "back in the day" SLRs had the form they had because it was the shape necessary to enclose the mechanicals of the SLR. Makers used different styling and ergonomic approaches to differentiate their cameras and of course make them attractive. Rollei did try the cube format used by MF SLRs in its SL2000 but it was not successful for various reasons some having to do with the fact it did not have the traditional 35mm form.
SLRs became jewelry at the time of the AE-1 intro when ads of tennis pros using them were aired.

I remember that back in the days of the Olympus OM system introduction some photographers ridiculed those as 'toys' or 'cameras for Japanese girls'. But after some time quite a few pros were using them because they found that they could get similar performance and quality for half the weight/size (plus some features that Canikon didn't have like an advanced flash system). I didn't have a problem using 300 or 400mm lenses with those small bodies either ...

Nowadays I still notice the demand in the forums for 'manly' cameras, especially from the wedding shooters who apparently are afraid that if their camera is too small they won't be taken serious by the customer ;-(

If people enjoy lugging and showing off big/heavy cameras (the 1Dx II is rumored to be even heavier! So Canon does listen to its customers) good for them, but I don't share their preferences.

 

[nhz]

OM1 :

except OM1 was
a) manual focus.
b) all mechanical without even a winder
c) no viewfinder information outside of a little exposure needle.
d) design in an era where normal lenses weighed around 200-400g

but it worked at -60C.....

I don't know at what temperature the OM-2 stopped working (never below about -15C in my country, it always just worked). But despite auto exposure the battery lasted for about two years or over 10.000 shots. I guess it is progress that you now have to recharge the battery after one day of use ;-(

 

[Don Haines]

OM1 :

except OM1 was
a) manual focus.
b) all mechanical without even a winder
c) no viewfinder information outside of a little exposure needle.
d) design in an era where normal lenses weighed around 200-400g

but it worked at -60C.....

I don't know at what temperature the OM-2 stopped working (never below about -15C in my country, it always just worked). But despite auto exposure the battery lasted for about two years or over 10.000 shots. I guess it is progress that you now have to recharge the battery after one day of use ;-(

The only thing it used the battery for was the light meter.... when it got real cold, the battery froze, the light meter stopped working, and you guessed at your exposure....

 

[neuroanatomist]

If people enjoy lugging and showing off big/heavy cameras (the 1Dx II is rumored to be even heavier! So Canon does listen to its customers) good for them, but I don't share their preferences.

It's not about showing off, it's about ergonomics. A pancake lens works great on my EOS M, and feels weird and uncomfortable on my 1D X. A 24-70/2.8 or larger feels perfect and balanced on my 1D X and weird on my EOS M. A 70-200/2.8 or larger also feels perfect and balanced on my 1D X, ungainly on a non-gripped body, and an ergonomic nightmare with my EOS M.

 

[sunnyVan]

If people enjoy lugging and showing off big/heavy cameras (the 1Dx II is rumored to be even heavier! So Canon does listen to its customers) good for them, but I don't share their preferences.

It's not about showing off, it's about ergonomics. A pancake lens works great on my EOS M, and feels weird and uncomfortable on my 1D X. A 24-70/2.8 or larger feels perfect and balanced on my 1D X and weird on my EOS M. A 70-200/2.8 or larger also feels perfect and balanced on my 1D X, ungainly on a non-gripped body, and an ergonomic nightmare with my EOS M.

Showing off is not such a terrible thing.

 

[Don Haines]

I'd like to add a poll to this thread to see what people think about Canon's next mirrorless. APS-C sized or will Canon go FF for the first time? I'm curious. Can't wait

I have a large format mirrorless.... (5x7 glass plates)

 

[tpatana]

I'd like to add a poll to this thread to see what people think about Canon's next mirrorless. APS-C sized or will Canon go FF for the first time? I'm curious. Can't wait

I have a large format mirrorless.... (5x7 glass plates)

Mirrorless can do faster fps since they don't need to flap the mirror up and down. How much fps is that?

 

[Don Haines]

I'd like to add a poll to this thread to see what people think about Canon's next mirrorless. APS-C sized or will Canon go FF for the first time? I'm curious. Can't wait

I have a large format mirrorless.... (5x7 glass plates)

Mirrorless can do faster fps since they don't need to flap the mirror up and down. How much fps is that?

It's about a frame every 10 minutes, but with only 4 plate holders I am burst limited.......

 

[zim]

"back in the day SLRs were mostly male jewelry"

OM1 :

except OM1 was
a) manual focus.
b) all mechanical without even a winder
c) no viewfinder information outside of a little exposure needle.
d) design in an era where normal lenses weighed around 200-400g

Except we were talking about male jewellery, stop going OT and talking about photography ;D ;D

 

[rrcphoto]

"back in the day SLRs were mostly male jewelry"

OM1 :

except OM1 was
a) manual focus.
b) all mechanical without even a winder
c) no viewfinder information outside of a little exposure needle.
d) design in an era where normal lenses weighed around 200-400g

Except we were talking about male jewellery, stop going OT and talking about photography ;D ;D

bahaha.

I would love to see a T90 edition of an EOS-M.

go back to the birth of EOS.

and btw, it *IS* the 30 year anniversary of said camera.

go full blown retro and provide an EF-M to FD adapter as well as an EF-M to EF adapter.

as a matter of fact, make that an AF FD adapter.

 

[AvTvM]

Forget that old FD glass. Optimized for film, not well suited for digital sensors. 30 year old optical formulas, optical glass, optical performance. Just bury it together with the few retro-freaks who still have some of those old clunkers. And any T90 along with it.

Retro is evil. Why fill young wine into old tubes? Less functional than a truly digital camera with optimized UI including well-designed body shape and control points:
* fully articulated touch LCD screen
* 4k resolution 120Hz "Retina" EVF
* 1 mode dial with AvTvM and 3+ custom settings
* 1 multi-functional, non labelled dial in front
* 1 large thumb wheel in back
* 1 aperture/multi-function ring around lens mount (on body, not on lenses!)
* eye control AF-point selection in EVF
* 1 back button AF button
* no shoulder display
* WIFI plus elaborate, fully functional remote control APP instead of hard-threaded shuttor button for wire release (as on retro olympus and Fuji crap)
* no manual focus, only AF
* independently certified IP67 ingress protection (sealing)
* small body with grip large enough to hold and accomodate Li-battery with 700+ shots charge

All of it readily available and "already invented" at Canon.
And please keep Luigi Colani away from any future Canon MILC. Choose a Dieter Rams-oriented design.
Thanks, Canon

 

[nhz]

All of it readily available and "already invented" at Canon.

Yes, most of it available off the shelf (so not revolutionary at all). But in typical Canon fashion we are probably at EOS-M30 model before most of this is included ;-(

Question: is this because Canon wants to milk their customers to the max, or because the remaining customers resist change and don't want 'revolutionary' cameras?

 

[neuroanatomist]

Question: is this because Canon wants to milk their customers to the max, or because the remaining customers resist change and don't want 'revolutionary' cameras?

'Remaining customers'...in other words, the majority of ILC buyers in the world. :