Canon will release a trio of RF mount wide angle L prime lenses in the first half of 2023

[unfocused]

Not only that, I suspect it means that if they do peruse the forums here, they'd rapidly get the impression that many posters here are clueless about reality and reach the conclusion that there is not sufficient business-relevant wheat to be gleaned here from among all the asinine chaff.

I suspect Canon does like many companies and pays a third-party to do the monitoring for them, as it is much more cost effective. Now that doesn't mean that there is an actual person anywhere reading these comments. Instead, what happens is a bot scours hundreds of sites looking for keywords, phrases and combinations of words for dozens or hundreds of different clients and then sends a summary to each client.

An individual or team at Canon is most likely assigned to go through the reports and flag anything that needs to be moved up the corporate ladder.

For example, Canon might have had someone looking for "R5" and "Overheating." When that combination of words hit an alarming number of instances they knew they had a problem. Similarly, they might have the bots looking for "Canon," "Mirrorless," and "Freezing."

They probably even get data that shows how frequently Nikon, Sony and Canon are associated with positive and negative terms, just to spot trends. For example the report might tell them that in 2015, 70% of Nikon mentions were positive, while 80% of Canon mentions were positive, while in 2022, 80% of Nikon mentions were positive and 80% of Canon mentions were positive.

You are correct that individual comments are of no interest to Canon, but I am reasonably certain that they are monitoring this and other sites as an early warning system and to do basic corporate research. We are aggregate data and they want that data, but individual opinions are just that, individual opinions. (Wisdom of the crowd = significant. Individual opinions = insignificant).

 

[David - Sydney]

I am not sure Canon hearing that they are DOOOOMED over and over again will help their business decisions very much.

I still contend that CR is better than other forums - and not only as I contribute regularly

Easy to ignore the silly comments especially when it is a common theme for a long time and the numbers show the opposite. Dipping into any DPR article on Canon shows there is almost nothing constructive in them.

 

[David - Sydney]

Not only that, I suspect it means that if they do peruse the forums here, they'd rapidly get the impression that many posters here are clueless about reality and reach the conclusion that there is not sufficient business-relevant wheat to be gleaned here from among all the asinine chaff.

Clueless posters can still buy Canon stuff. I think that most of the obvious fan boys from other ecosystems leave CR pretty quickly once they are asked to say something with some degree of logic.

What I am surprised about is the responses from posts about lenses that are at the very pointy end of the market whether buyers or renters. The negative comments for RF600/4, RF800/5.6 for instance about price and yet salivating over a 200-500mm/4+1.4x which have to cost more.

In any case, I would suggest that most buyers of the lower end of the market rely mostly on recommendations from reseller staff rather than perusing technical forums on rumours. I wonder what type of education they receive from Canon to promote their products.

 

[David - Sydney]

I suspect Canon does like many companies and pays a third-party to do the monitoring for them, as it is much more cost effective.
An individual or team at Canon is most likely assigned to go through the reports and flag anything that needs to be moved up the corporate ladder.
You are correct that individual comments are of no interest to Canon, but I am reasonably certain that they are monitoring this and other sites as an early warning system and to do basic corporate research. We are aggregate data and they want that data, but individual opinions are just that, individual opinions. (Wisdom of the crowd = significant. Individual opinions = insignificant).

I believe that their marketing teams would take the time to read the formal reviews - particularly the ones where Canon provided the equipment. All reviewers have some bias (conscious or otherwise) to take into consideration. The number of eyeballs that read/watch them would be a significant factor.

The overheating storm in a tea cup did prompt quick firmware updates from the engineers so the feedback was definitely received.
9-July R5 announce date
~30-July R5 shipping date
27-August R5 firmware 1.1 with improved temperature / video record times (in the 3 video modes affected)
It was a quick fix from timed to measured temperature but I don't think that you can expect a much faster response.

 

[scyrene]

Again, insults just show that you're not confident about your point and the fact that I said that of course they're currently on top but their refusal to innovate will hurt them in the long run is still accurate, which you of course did not comprehend. Old and nearly discontinued cameras won't last too long - and they don't exactly have great stuff out to replace those models once sales dry up, while other brands do.

I'll give you a few minutes to try and figure that one out, but it's ok if you can't come up with a good response - I'm sure you tried!

1. Criticising your data isn't the same as insulting you.

2. What "refusal to innovate" are you referring to?

3. Surely selling more of old bodies that are presumably cheaper to manufacture, implying higher profit margins per unit, is better business? Why wouldn't that continue if it were the case at present? Hasn't the majority of Canon's (and presumably most other manufacturers') income come from the lower end products, which sell in larger numbers?

 

[David - Sydney]

but sure let me know how new and improved Canon products are selling well still! They're hanging on to old stuff that is still selling, but won't be for long.

It took me 5 minutes to find the information you requested from Canon's annual report and 1Q/2Q3Q updates!
Summary is that the R mount bodies / RF lenses are highly profitable and continue to sell in excess of their plan and the overall market has picked up year on year despite Covid and supply chain issues. Market share of ~50%.

From Canon's annual 2021 financial results (2022 should be out end of January):
...profitability recovered to a normal double-digit level in 2021.
As for camera demand, despite concerns that it would shrink significantly due to the pandemic, demand remained relatively strong... and the impact made by new full-frame mirrorless cameras released by each company.
As for the size of the market in 2021, although it shrank by 200 thousand units, due to the insufficient supply of products by each company, it was still 5.4 million units.
Our unit sales in 2021 totaled 2.74 million units, 20 thousand units fewer than in 2020, also due to the insufficient supply of products, particularly entry-class cameras. However, for the EOS R5 and EOS R6, sales volumes and price levels remained stable, despite them being in the market for more than a year. Additionally, unit sales of our RF lens lineup, which was expanded to 26 lenses through the addition of 8 new products, increased substantially, thanks to their synergy with cameras
We have been expanding our core product lineup by increasing the number of highly profitable EOS R systems over the years. As a result, the sustained profitability of the camera business has increased significantly, resulting in an overall 25% increase in camera sales and a significant improvement in profitability in 2021.
In 2022, the size of the camera market is expected to be 5.65 million units, a 5% increase over 2021, which takes into account the carryover from 2021 due to supply shortages.
As for RF lenses, we will work to increase unit sales of our lineup, which currently consists of 26 models, through further synergy with cameras.

Through the timely launch of products that expand the range of choices available to users, we will maintain high profitability by increasing sales and improving our product mix.

From Canon's 2Q21 financials:
...we raised our outlook for the size of the global camera market by 200 thousand units and now expect the overall size to be 6 million units for the full year.
In the second quarter, the share of total sales attributable to the EOS R5 and EOS R6, for which sales remain strong, has increased more than expected
...the number of full-frame mirrorless camera users who purchase RF lenses has been accelerating since the launch of the R5 and R6, creating a situation where we cannot supply some products in a timely manner.
...in response to strong demand for camera bodies, we raised our unit sales projection by 100 thousand units, and now project full-year unit sales to be 3 million units.

From Canon's 3Q21 financials (prior to the R3):
... due to the global shortage of parts, the size of this year’s market is now projected to be 5.9 million units, 100 thousand units fewer than in our previous projection. Similarly, we expect our own unit sales to be 2.95 million units, 50 thousand units fewer than in our previous projection.
...the EOS R5 and EOS R6, they continue to be strong selling models. As for our enhanced lineup of lenses, we exceeded our unit sales plan thanks to their synergy with camera bodies.

 

[Jethro]

It took me 5 minutes to find the information you requested from Canon's annual report and 1Q/2Q3Q updates!
Summary is that the R mount bodies / RF lenses are highly profitable and continue to sell in excess of their plan and the overall market has picked up year on year despite Covid and supply chain issues. Market share of ~50%.

From Canon's annual 2021 financial results (2022 should be out end of January):
...profitability recovered to a normal double-digit level in 2021.
As for camera demand, despite concerns that it would shrink significantly due to the pandemic, demand remained relatively strong... and the impact made by new full-frame mirrorless cameras released by each company.
As for the size of the market in 2021, although it shrank by 200 thousand units, due to the insufficient supply of products by each company, it was still 5.4 million units.
Our unit sales in 2021 totaled 2.74 million units, 20 thousand units fewer than in 2020, also due to the insufficient supply of products, particularly entry-class cameras. However, for the EOS R5 and EOS R6, sales volumes and price levels remained stable, despite them being in the market for more than a year. Additionally, unit sales of our RF lens lineup, which was expanded to 26 lenses through the addition of 8 new products, increased substantially, thanks to their synergy with cameras
We have been expanding our core product lineup by increasing the number of highly profitable EOS R systems over the years. As a result, the sustained profitability of the camera business has increased significantly, resulting in an overall 25% increase in camera sales and a significant improvement in profitability in 2021.
In 2022, the size of the camera market is expected to be 5.65 million units, a 5% increase over 2021, which takes into account the carryover from 2021 due to supply shortages.
As for RF lenses, we will work to increase unit sales of our lineup, which currently consists of 26 models, through further synergy with cameras.

Through the timely launch of products that expand the range of choices available to users, we will maintain high profitability by increasing sales and improving our product mix.

From Canon's 2Q21 financials:
...we raised our outlook for the size of the global camera market by 200 thousand units and now expect the overall size to be 6 million units for the full year.
In the second quarter, the share of total sales attributable to the EOS R5 and EOS R6, for which sales remain strong, has increased more than expected
...the number of full-frame mirrorless camera users who purchase RF lenses has been accelerating since the launch of the R5 and R6, creating a situation where we cannot supply some products in a timely manner.
...in response to strong demand for camera bodies, we raised our unit sales projection by 100 thousand units, and now project full-year unit sales to be 3 million units.

From Canon's 3Q21 financials (prior to the R3):
... due to the global shortage of parts, the size of this year’s market is now projected to be 5.9 million units, 100 thousand units fewer than in our previous projection. Similarly, we expect our own unit sales to be 2.95 million units, 50 thousand units fewer than in our previous projection.
...the EOS R5 and EOS R6, they continue to be strong selling models. As for our enhanced lineup of lenses, we exceeded our unit sales plan thanks to their synergy with camera bodies.

You're clearly right - but I fear you may be wasting your time ...

 

[unfocused]

I believe that their marketing teams would take the time to read the formal reviews - particularly the ones where Canon provided the equipment. All reviewers have some bias (conscious or otherwise) to take into consideration. The number of eyeballs that read/watch them would be a significant factor….

My comments were aimed at forum discussions. Certainly they follow reviews, at least the legitimate ones that have respectable readership.

 

[Ozarker]

I'm probably gonna put my ignorance of (and non-use of) WA lenses out there, but wouldn't three lenses of 24mm, 28mm, and 35mm seem too closely spaced together?

It would seem that way. In my experience though, it seems like the wider the angle gets the bigger apparent difference from the next narrower. The difference between 14mm and 16mm looks huge to me. 35mm vs 50mm seems like less difference to me.

 

[Nemorino]

Just have a look at the angle a focol length deliver:
14mm : 114.2°
20mm: 94.5°
24mm: 84.1°
28mm: 75.4°
35mm: 63.4°
This are the angles of Sigma prime lenses, info found at geizhals.de

 

[takesome1]

I suspect Canon does like many companies and pays a third-party to do the monitoring for them, as it is much more cost effective. Now that doesn't mean that there is an actual person anywhere reading these comments. Instead, what happens is a bot scours hundreds of sites looking for keywords, phrases and combinations of words for dozens or hundreds of different clients and then sends a summary to each client.

An individual or team at Canon is most likely assigned to go through the reports and flag anything that needs to be moved up the corporate ladder.

For example, Canon might have had someone looking for "R5" and "Overheating." When that combination of words hit an alarming number of instances they knew they had a problem. Similarly, they might have the bots looking for "Canon," "Mirrorless," and "Freezing."

They probably even get data that shows how frequently Nikon, Sony and Canon are associated with positive and negative terms, just to spot trends. For example the report might tell them that in 2015, 70% of Nikon mentions were positive, while 80% of Canon mentions were positive, while in 2022, 80% of Nikon mentions were positive and 80% of Canon mentions were positive.

You are correct that individual comments are of no interest to Canon, but I am reasonably certain that they are monitoring this and other sites as an early warning system and to do basic corporate research. We are aggregate data and they want that data, but individual opinions are just that, individual opinions. (Wisdom of the crowd = significant. Individual opinions = insignificant).

Or maybe they just waited for the warranty claims to start coming in. I think that would be more likely than actually searching the internet for things going wrong. Warranty claims are real results, internet forums are just full of unhappy whiners.

 

[takesome1]

I believe that their marketing teams would take the time to read the formal reviews - particularly the ones where Canon provided the equipment. All reviewers have some bias (conscious or otherwise) to take into consideration. The number of eyeballs that read/watch them would be a significant factor.

They probably review and edit many of them, or at the very least give the reviewer the narrative. Otherwise why give your equipment to someone who is going to berate it.

The testers they want true opinions, reviewers are part of sales.

 

[Del Paso]

I wish there also was an EF 50mm f/2.5 Compact Macro lens available

Yes yes yes ! Provided it is excellent at infinity setting as well.

 

[koenkooi]

Yes yes yes ! Provided it is excellent at infinity setting as well.

And bonus points for being able to blend in sonically when shooting a nest of angry hornets!

 

[EOS 4 Life]

Since you'd like to resort to insults instead of actual data, here's some that I very quickly Googled:

10 top-selling mirrorless cameras in 2022 so far: Canon is still the daddy

Canon owns the top 3 spots in 2022's best-selling mirrorless cameras in Japan so far – and APS-C bodies rule the roost

www.digitalcameraworld.com

Notice that the Canon cameras on the list are outdated (the M series is dead and the RP is on its way out and heavily discounted) but sure let me know how new and improved Canon products are selling well still! They're hanging on to old stuff that is still selling, but won't be for long.

Sony only has one new camera on that list.
I do have to admit that was an impressive sales performance from the a7 IV.
It will be interesting to see if the R6 II can make it on the list.
Canon has so many interesting cameras at every price point that I would only expect the lower-priced cameras to make it on the list.

 

[EOS 4 Life]

I would suggest that most buyers of the lower end of the market rely mostly on recommendations from reseller staff rather than perusing technical forums on rumours. I wonder what type of education they receive from Canon to promote their products.

Just going by the YouTube videos that camera stores put out on Canon vs other brands, I would say that Canon provides much better education.

 

[AlanF]

Just have a look at the angle a focol length deliver:
14mm : 114.2°
20mm: 94.5°
24mm: 84.1°
28mm: 75.4°
35mm: 63.4°
This are the angles of Sigma prime lenses, info found at geizhals.de

You can calculate the FOV angle from the formula FOV = 2 arctan (x / (2 f)) where x is the diagonal of the sensor and f the focal length. But, who needs to do that if you can look them up.

 

[chasingrealness]

Ok so what are we thinking for announcement timeline?

 

[shadow]

I'm definitely not onboard with Canon's strategy of offering only entry level lenses and uber expensive and bulky L lenses.

I need my lenses weather sealed so that pretty much rules out the cheaper lenses. The prices rule out most L lenses. There's a massive gap between a $200 and $2500 50mm lens. I'm not going to get either and don't really understand why they won't let third party manufacturers fill that gap.

Also, lenses that weigh 500-600 grams feel perfectly balanced with R5/R6. We badly need 1.4 primes in that weight class with weather sealing.

Massive gap, exactly my thoughts still. These L series lens address the high end full frame body price, great but you are correct nothing in mid range, so I guess all the R10's never upgrade from the kit lens? Are R7 shooters buying $2-3000 lenses? I guess so. If someone wants a R5 or R3, sure $2000+ lenses. But now watching these announcements over 6 months without decent 1.8 or 2.8 $600-$1200 IS garden variety APSC lenses (like my Sony 11mm F/1.8, 18-105 f/4 with OSS I own), I find it strange that releasing the R8 at rumoured under R10 price still holding out without respective RF-S APSC lenses to be a weird market in the mid range. If the strategy is to target high end only, I get it. So we will see what happens at the CP show in February.

 

[shadow]

Canon’s goal isn’t to give you what you want. Their goal is profit,

Coming from a bean counting and non marketing customer oriented perspective, sure. I get the non 3rd party thing you often mention in these threads. But, one glaring omission is to leave out market share, which Sony is gaining on Canon. The downfall of US manufacturers, short term quarterly profits was all that mattered. QC in US built, crap quality 1980's automobiles is a good example. Toyota and Honda focused on the customer and usurped the failed US bean counting, non customer focused crap quality cars.