CIPA Camera Sales Data Released, Decline Continues

[Hector1970]

When the MILCs prove to be good enough and when the lens we have fit them they will be more popular.
The industry is a victim of its own success. Competition has brought the standard to near perfection. The gear is pretty robust and will last for years as long as you keep water away from it. It's hard to grow the market. They almost need a scrapage scheme to get people to get rid of their old cameras. Sales I think will gradually drop but as the worlds population increases there will be new customers. Photography itself is as popular as ever.

 

[Loswr]

the facts I care about are my wallet, my money and what I get for it from a given gear supplier. I am neither interested in that suppliers' sales numbers nor in their profits. That's their problem, not mine. All I want is max. bang for my buck Euros.

As long as you don't care why manufacturers are not making – and may never make – the products you want, that attitude makes sense. I suppose some people find it liberating to be so clueless they're oblivious to their own cluelessness.

 

[AvTvM]

I am neither interested in that suppliers' sales numbers nor in their profits. That's their problem, not mine. All I want is max. bang for my buck Euros.

Without sales, they do not make profit.
Without profit they go bust
Then you have no cameras at all to buy.
So yes, it is your problem.

OMG, panic! No more camera for me! You seem to be a very "concerned citizen". Relax. Consider the facts (!) ... don't panic! ;D ;D ;D

A. Canon looks after their profits rather well themselves. Sales and profits are entirely their problem. As customers we don't have to constantly look after their interests, and consider their profitability, but defend and look after our own interests: decent gear @ decent prices.

B. Luckily, to the overwhelming majority of existing and potential (non-Pro) customers imaging gear is not a vital product but rather a leisure/luxury item.

From this follows:
1. imaging gear suppliers are infinitely more dependent on us customers than we are on them

2. should Nikon, Canon, Sony or all together go bust, likelihood is extremely high, that somebody else will step in and make and sell us decent imaging gear.

... at least as long as I am not really the only one left who wants to buy dedicated cameras and lenses. ;D

 

[Chuck Alaimo]

I am neither interested in that suppliers' sales numbers nor in their profits. That's their problem, not mine. All I want is max. bang for my buck Euros.

Without sales, they do not make profit.
Without profit they go bust
Then you have no cameras at all to buy.
So yes, it is your problem.

OMG, panic! No more camera for me! You seem to be a very "concerned citizen". Relax. Consider the facts (!) ... don't panic! ;D ;D ;D

A. Canon looks after their profits rather well themselves. Sales and profits are entirely their problem. As customers we don't have to constantly look after their interests, and consider their profitability, but defend and look after our own interests: decent gear @ decent prices.

B. Luckily, to the overwhelming majority of existing and potential (non-Pro) customers imaging gear is not a vital product but rather a leisure/luxury item.

From this follows:
1. imaging gear suppliers are infinitely more dependent on us customers than we are on them

2. should Nikon, Canon, Sony or all together go bust, likelihood is extremely high, that somebody else will step in and make and sell us decent imaging gear.

... at least as long as I am not really the only one left who wants to buy dedicated cameras and lenses. ;D

A - I think this is the major thing you don't seem to get --- many of us do believe that we have damn good gear for the cost. that's why we defend canon, because the end result is we have damn good gear.

B - you seem to completely ignore that there is a wide ranging professional market that yes, favors reliability, functionality and build quality over the latest gimmick feature... For this segment imaging fear IS vital. But, for this segment, purchases will be made based on actual need and ROI. Canon and nikon will more than likely design products for the pro/semi pro market because this market is more predictable. The non pro leisure photographer are buying based on want, not need and identifying their wants is not as easy as its not based on need - it's fickle, it changes based on trends, which change.

I mean, for a while the biggest need was DR, now it's 4k, you cry from the mountain top that we need tiny full frame mirrorless, others are begging for c-fast, others wish video wasn't a concern and want just a stills camera, others want flippy screens. What will the next trend be???

1 - Without gear suppliers there can't be customers, its a symbiotic relationship.

2 - If canon nikon and sony all go bust ---well damn dude, your talking about apocalypse level financial collapse - those are all big companies with deep pockets - and photography is still very very popular. All 3 going down would mean we had an asteroid hit the earth, or nuclear war, or the rise of the zombies. Yes the market has slowed, and yes, cell phones are killing the mid-range of the market. Yes, we've hit a point of diminishing returns for upgrades, that will also slow the market. But, we're no where near a market collapse... To bring this full circle, while yes, it is your priority to look after your own interests and seek out the best gear for the $$ - but - to pretend that your needs are everyones needs and demand a company to make the product you want and let everything else be damned is totally counter to your statement of looking out for your own interest because it costs money to develop and manufacture a product - if it flops that means everything else becomes more costly - isn't your main issue finding decent gear @ decent prices?

We have damn good gear, we've had damn good gear. Hell, many skip upgrade cycles because the upgrade can't be justified - that's because what they have is already good and has been good. It's got lasting power - that's something you don't find in this world anymore. I don't want another disposable item.

 

[AvTvM]

i hear you. Yes, I agree, overall we have a choice from *fairly decent* gear.

BUT, now comes the BUT:
* things always only come one or 2 iterations later than what would have been (technically and cost-wise) easily possible ... or are even consciously NERFED, and not due to "reliability considerations"!

just a few examples, there are many many more ... think of how long it took to finally get WiFi in high-priced DSLRs and then it is strill only half-assed, think of 5D2's nerfed AF, think of ultra-nerfed EOS M, M2, M10 ... I don't even mention 4k, because there are video cams for that.

But boy, how long did/do we have to wait for a decent APS-C mirrorless system ... especially bodies (M5 is just about OK, but not great). a fully competitive with Sony FF MILC system is not even visible on the horizon from Canon ... and and.

Did i say sensors that are clearly superior to anybody else's .. like it was before 2011? 5 years and still not fully closed the gap to Sony. Not to speak of having leapfrogged them ...

Why no Eye Control AF v2.0 - a huge USP that (many, most) customers would directly profit from with every shot taken thru viewfinder with a Canon camera. And no competitor has it or could quickly implement it too.

Yes, it is not only Canon, Nikon is even worse. But, here we are looking at Canon first and foremost.

No, I do *not* expect a 1DX II camera for 99 or 999 Euro or an EOS M1 more capable at tracking AF than a 5D IV.

BUT ... we customers have to constantly push our suppliers for more & better. They try to hold back some of the best stuff from us and try nickel and dime us all the time (called "marketing differentiation"). So if we customers also sing our SUPPLIER'S song, we are really doubly f*cking ourselves. That's it.

 

[Loswr]

We have damn good gear, we've had damn good gear. Hell, many skip upgrade cycles because the upgrade can't be justified - that's because what they have is already good and has been good. It's got lasting power - that's something you don't find in this world anymore. I don't want another disposable item.

Exactly - a mature market. Call it incremental improvement, call it market differentiation, call it nerfing, bottom line is that products at all levels are giving great value and performance, but people's needs/wants for the level of performance differ. Personally, I started with a T1i/500D, moved to a 7D, added a 5DII, then swapped that pair for a 1D X. Not sufficiently tempted by the 1D X II to purchase one. But novel products are tempting, like the 11-24L that I bought earlier this year.

 

[Maiaibing]

Current cameras are very very good, and if you think about it, your current camera probably gives you all you need really. It would appear they have virtually maxed out current technology, hence the insignificant improvements from one model to the next.

Sensors can still improve quite a lot and more MPIX is still noticeably better as it brings out more IQ from each lens you own.

5DS/R filled a massive void in the Canon camera line-up. It had 220%+ more pixels than the 5DIII. The sensor is better in every single dimension than the 5DIII sensor - color, noise, DR. I consider it a "significant" upgrade by any standard. And that's pretty recent.

Canon has a 120 MPIX camera sensor in the making. Will that also be another "Insignificant" upgrade?

 

[Maximilian]

...
BUT ... we customers have to constantly push our suppliers for more & better. They try to hold back some of the best stuff from us and try nickel and dime us all the time (called "marketing differentiation"). So if we customers also sing our SUPPLIER'S song, we are really doubly f*cking ourselves. That's it.

Even if so, even you are 100% right here, the only way to act is to vote with your purse.
So just don't buy the things you think they are c**p.
Others don't feel like you do and so all - ALL: Canon, Nikon, Sony - don't feel the urge to develop whatever you think is right. You can think those are *** but to call them whatever you think won't make it better.

So maybe you'll find a better way to persuade Canon R&D than to moan in a forum.

 

[Mikehit]

From this follows:
1. imaging gear suppliers are infinitely more dependent on us customers than we are on them

Absolutely

2. should Nikon, Canon, Sony or all together go bust, likelihood is extremely high, that somebody else will step in and make and sell us decent imaging gear.

Someone else without the experience and know-how of how to deliver the product to millions of so far satisfied customers will fail to deliver to said satisfied customers. We all lose out. Or do you not understand how companies work?

I agree that for us, photography is a luxury. For them, our purchasing is vital to their very existence.
But personally, if I want to maintain my supply of quality camera gear I need Canon to survive. I would rather they did. And, actually so would you.
Or do you not understand that?

Let's put it another way - Canon goes bust and all that gear you have becomes worthless. SO why not sell it up now while it has resale value and buy a brand that satisfies your needs. Because Canon clearly don't.

 

[AvTvM]

they are not bust. yet. and even if the go bust, ican go and capture MY images with the gear i have. no need to sell. yet.

i am secure. Canon is at risk.

 

[scyrene]

Let's put it another way - Canon goes bust and all that gear you have becomes worthless. SO why not sell it up now while it has resale value and buy a brand that satisfies your needs. Because Canon clearly don't.

I am fairly convinced now that the person you're replying to just wants attention. They are posting tonnes of provocative things that incite a lot of response, and that encourages them. There's a point at which someone can demonstrate they are not interested in debate, they just want to stir things up. The best thing we can do here is ignore.

 

[hbr]

I am fairly convinced now that the person you're replying to just wants attention. They are posting tonnes of provocative things that incite a lot of response, and that encourages them. There's a point at which someone can demonstrate they are not interested in debate, they just want to stir things up. The best thing we can do here is ignore.

Don't feed the trolls and maybe they will go away. They are just here for click bait. Nothing worthwhile to contribute to this forum.

 

[BasXcanon]

Dear neuroanatomist and yuenglinger,

I do not have the time to look on the forum so much every day, thats why my respond to your reactions comes so late.
Please let me REDEFINE the word Sad that I used earlier.

I looked the sales from the consumer side of view, and it might be true that the statements from the post are nothing new with the declining camera sales.
The only reason why I am writing this reaction is to give you an idea why I used this 'sad'.

After 15 years of digital photography for consumers it is still only like 30% of the world population that can install a canon printer to their computer and learn how to get the SD data to the printer.
I believed Digital should have made it all easier, and the picture taking part has become easier with digital but storing and getting it printed how ever is the biggest obstacle possible for the most of people out there.
Let not even begin talking about learning them how to operate a DSLR in any other mode than automatic.

The way I see it, there are only 3 groups of camera buyers left.
1. Paid professionals
2. People that really want a camera for the feeling, the better quality than cellphones or the fact that they knew film photography very well.
3. Younger people that know computers very well and are well educated on the side of computerskills/Storing/editing/printing photo's. They just want cameras for decent footage for their photoshop skills.

Now I believe all those 3 groups have their own specific problems.
1. Professionals,
You might think that professionals already know what they need etc. ..
But the truth is, is that since I saw an Internet article about a Fuji photographer I started thinking deeply.
There was being told that the photographer could do the same wedding with Fuji X100t, Xt1, 56mm and 90mm lens.
He showed his gear that he used in the passed aswell.... like 9 L lenses, 2 full frame camera's 1 speedlite.
And guess what..... this person, (and not only this one), still get paid jobs after his switch!
The fact clients pay for this setup makes me wonder why one would need canon full frames for weddings.
With this fuji setup, you could do the same with canon if you use: 7DmII, 11-24mm F4, 50mm L, 100m L Macro, speedlites.
DAMM! why pay for more equipment if it doesn't pay off????
In fact if I were the professional and my clients accept me to work with a point and shoot and accept the results and pay the same. My future would contain many less canon purchases....

Have you even looked at photographs in the newspaper in 2016? Even journalists becoming Scamsungographers now.
And let me tell you, I hate the oversharpnessed jpegs from Samsung.
The quality from newspaper photos has dropped to a new depth, but guess what..... the journalist still get paid every week.
I think you can guess where this is going...

2.The well known enthusiasts,
They might all pretend like they are a loyal paying group. The fact that they often don't have the right computer-post skills makes them having a bad mood soon enough when they compare their photo's with iPhone photo's with in phone edditing. I don't know if neuroanatomist and yuenglinger have followed the recent news about apple, but that company declared war vs the camera industry by not integrating SD readers in their laptops any more.
CD readers have also gone already, so how is this group getting their DPP-4 software on their computer to start even learning to edit their DSLR photo's???
Well I know canon lets you download it from their webpage aswell. But this group of people have really no idea how to download zip files and instal and search on the web. (certainly if it comes to non-native-english speaking people).

3. Younger people
As stated before, this group already can find out the thricks about the post process and all that comes after taking the picture. The problem for canon is that since they rely more on post and editting, they are not likely to buy flashes and more lenses, since everything can be digitally manipulated. They don't care about learning the highest camera skills.
Not even mentioning the rising of duo lenses on smartphones and litro camera's creating fake bokeh.


The last thing that almost made me get tears....
I think as an artist (which a photographer is in a way) it also is your duty to teach your friends/followers/surrounding people to teach them your ART. How it gets done, how they get started, how to recognize art and redefine photography vs snapshots.
Now at the moment I have this older Canon 1100D which I used for the Magic Latern features.
But since I have bought the Canon XC-10, I have no need for this video features on the 1100D no more....
So I started looking for someone who could use my 1100D, I would give it away as a gift for someone to start exploring photography. But in my own field, there is sadly enough no one left that wants it, even for free, even if I would gave them a bit of a training!

Last but not least I really do believe that these xxxxD cameras are mostly being bought by the not so well informed consumers. Canon is actually (mis-using) the inability of people to get the right information.
Let's be honest, try get in the skin of a consumer buying his first system camera.
A. If you don't care about the flash options on the market.
B. If you only buy the kitlens and believe you don't need anything else.
C. Know nothing about Sensor sizes and equivalent framing.
D. But do compare the spec charts.
You have to admit that the competitions cameras from Panasonic at 350€ are way more appealing than the 1300D.
For 400€ you are better of with an used Canon 60D anyway.
It's only a matter of time before this consumer type gets well informed, and canon won't be selling a single DIGIT-4 Rebel no more, I can guarantee you that.


I hope neuroanatomist and yuenglinger will get the idea why I dared use the word SAD for the market situation in general.

 

[Loswr]

@BasXcanon – your three groups seem to leave out the 'soccer moms and dads' who are a major (if not the major) demographic for xxxD bodies, which represent the majority of Canon dSLR unit sales. They're not pros, not 'enthusiasts' and not 'post-processing experts' (in fact, most shoot in-camera jpg). I think few feel 'duped' by Canon (or Nikon, et al.), and I suspect most would resent your implication that they're happy with their images just because they don't know any better.

Unfortunately, I think I'd have to apply the word sad to the sentiment of your post.

 

[Hillsilly]

Was going to say a similar thing. Because I photograph a lot of school and sporting events, I occasionally get asked for camera recommendations. Despite being a mirrorless user, I always recommend Canon DSLRs. The reasons why mirrorless works for me is of little relevance to someone who wants to take a sharp image of their child during a sporting event or an indoor performance. Taking into account performance and price, lens choice, accessories and the extensive used market, it is clearly the best value proposition.

BasXcanon, I'd be curious to hear what you'd recommend.

Anyways, Professionals using Fuji? Yeah, why not. I've got four Fuji cameras. I think they're great. But most Fuji users recognise that there are situations where they're not the best choice. Just as there are situations where DSLRs aren't the best choice. Professionals are expected to get results and it would be assumed they'd choose appropriate equipment.

I don't think I've ever bought a computer with an inbuilt SD card reader. Do Apple laptops still have USB ports? If so, I guess their users will have to contend with card readers like the rest of us. Not ideal, but going by their ads, aren't Apple users smarter than everyone else? I'm sure they can figure it out.

I went to an iphonography seminar recently. I was impressed by the aps that were available and how they were being used. Because I rarely venture out of Photoshop, it was a real eye opener. I wouldn't be so negative on young people. As you say, it is an artform and the medium people choose to use is their choice. Still, if you were to go to any local camera club meeting, you'd probably see a very high number of young people who'd love an 1100D.

FWIW, I was one of three judges of our national high school photography competition this year. If you do have doubts about young people and photography, trust me, you've got to attend one of these events. You'll leave in awe of what high school students are capable of. The quality of the images is exceptional.

 

[Mikehit]

BasXcanon:

After 15 years of digital photography for consumers it is still only like 30% of the world population that can install a canon printer to their computer and learn how to get the SD data to the printer.

Because 70% of the camera owning population don't care about printing - they share their images on social network sites or 500pX, Flickr and the like. Nothing wrong with that - and you try showing a lot of low light smartphone photos on large screen, or cropped.
Besides, if you want it printed there are a growing number of photobooths around where you can slide in your SD card and print it off yourself.

Professionals - the subtext to your comment is that professionals are as mis-informed as anyone else. They are bigoted and blind about gear as anyone else - and as an example you only need to see the insults fly around when a professional says 'I now shoot all my wedding with micro 4/3'. I have been convinced for a long time that all this blather of 'you owe it to the client t ive them the best possible quality so you have to shoot raw with FF cameras' is more about personal ego than about giving the client what they want.

The well known enthusiasts - I think your logic here is rather muddled. There are many 'well-known enthusiasts' who are well known only because of their skills in post processing to produce outstanding quality images.
Apple have not declared war on the camera industry, for the simple reason their phones have cameras. They are simply dong what Apple do best in telling the customer what they will do and when. To download pictures you have to put the photos on the cloud (preferably theirs) so they are tying you in. They are reducing manufacturing costs by not installing a SD reader and not paying any royalities (if they are due) for using SD technology.
One social network site (I don;t recall who) now will only take photos from smartphones and will not take pictures made by 'standalone' cameras.

Younger people - the number of skilled your photographers is growing from what I can see.

You have to admit that the competitions cameras from Panasonic at 350€ are way more appealing than the 1300D.

You may thing that as an experienced photographer because you know the payoffs, but I have advised several friends and acquaintances on their first camera - I have shown them the images quality and size comparison using my own DSLR and MFT rigs, and every one of them went DSLR.