CIPA Camera Sales Data Released, Decline Continues
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Sometimes I thought you were a fanatic, which is not always bad.AvTvM said:YuengLinger said:
his 20k post will be a defensive Canon Defense League response to me.
Canon sucks. Canon is stupid! Neuro, defend your beloved Canon! Tell me, how stupid I am!
Now this post makes you look like a real troll. *head-shaking*
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the upgrades are really getting smaller.
i remember when the 5diii came out and i tried it in a shop and compared with my 5dii. I was really impressed, the camera was much more responsive, better AF, higher quality feeling, the electronic horizon and some few more. i was infected, waited few month until the price came little down....
Now, few years later, i tried a 5div in the same shop, took the same test pics and it felt moreless the same. according to measurements, the sensor may be much better, and maybe the autofocus is better, but the 5diii AF is on a nice level, not like the 5dii which fell short compared to a 50d.
upgrade cost to the 5diii (from a quite new 5dii) was 1000$ maybe, now from a 3 years old 5diii it would be 2000$. My wife doesn't use it anymore, just the phone.
So what features would have made me upgrade? Features, the 5diii has what i need. So I do not know, maybe a even more improved sensor, if they could skip the Bayer filter and measure the color in other way which would give at least 1 stop of sensitivity.
i remember when the 5diii came out and i tried it in a shop and compared with my 5dii. I was really impressed, the camera was much more responsive, better AF, higher quality feeling, the electronic horizon and some few more. i was infected, waited few month until the price came little down....
Now, few years later, i tried a 5div in the same shop, took the same test pics and it felt moreless the same. according to measurements, the sensor may be much better, and maybe the autofocus is better, but the 5diii AF is on a nice level, not like the 5dii which fell short compared to a 50d.
upgrade cost to the 5diii (from a quite new 5dii) was 1000$ maybe, now from a 3 years old 5diii it would be 2000$. My wife doesn't use it anymore, just the phone.
So what features would have made me upgrade? Features, the 5diii has what i need. So I do not know, maybe a even more improved sensor, if they could skip the Bayer filter and measure the color in other way which would give at least 1 stop of sensitivity.
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Oh well, doesn't look too rosy for the industry.
I wonder: How can Smartphones compete, if their imagining unit is not even one cubic cm large with lenses that weight more than 3 times the whole smartphone?
On the other hand, maybe the companies also lost a bit the customer. I for example, really wanted to buy my first full frame camera, but none of the canon offerings really convinced me, so I kept my money.
I hope the 6D will be worthwhile.
I wonder: How can Smartphones compete, if their imagining unit is not even one cubic cm large with lenses that weight more than 3 times the whole smartphone?
On the other hand, maybe the companies also lost a bit the customer. I for example, really wanted to buy my first full frame camera, but none of the canon offerings really convinced me, so I kept my money.
I hope the 6D will be worthwhile.
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AvTvM said:
Wow, way to miss the point! Unless your mirrorless is a phone your in the same boat. As stated, big falloff in point and shoots. The slr market is saturated so it's going to be slower moving. This has nothing to do with mirrorless though and everything to do with cell phones getting better and better. For the needs of most people, a cell phone died the trick. And no matter how small mlc's get, unless you can play candy crush, send emails and txt and all the other stuff phones do your not pulling people away from phones.
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Chuck Alaimo said:
no. it has EVERYTHING to do with (lack of) SMALL, GOOD and AFFORDABLE mirrorless cameras and lenses. Canon EOS M is a half decent succes, beacuse of samll, decent, affordable EF-M lenses, despite shortcomings of EOS M bodies. Sony... other way round. Good bodies, but no good lenses and/or bloody way too expensive, big and fat. because they made E-mount hiole too small and flange distance too short. lol
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AvTvM said:
maybe you are right, maybe not, i do not know if the 5d3 AF unit and coputing power behind would have been available dor 5d2 already.
BUT, for 5D users the 5d2 gave big improvement in IQ,
For 5d2 users the 5d3 gave great AF and features (but outdated sensor)
For 5d3 users the 5d4 gives state of the art sensor and some features.
if given the 5d3's AF and features to the 5d2, they would have sold much less 5d3's....
maybe this is your wish (and our all's) but not canon's best interest
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that's exactly it: we should NOT be concerned with Canon's best. We should FIRMLY DEMAND what is BEST FOR US. On this forum and vis a vis Canon. For example by not buying sub-par gear from them. Or excessively priced stuff. Which is what I do. And not only me. Massively shrinking unit sales. oO. :-D
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AvTvM said:
actually it doesn't because if this was true, the E-Mount and the M43 mount would have shown more signs of growth.
Olympus will ship less than 500,000 ILC's this year. half a million. that's it.
Sony's marketshare keeps eroding as well.
also seems weird to attack the e-mount on physical size and characteristics of the mount, when the EF-M is exactly the same.
Facts are hard .. especially when they don't match your opinion.
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AvTvM said:
The majority of the market wants 1 device that can go in a pocket and not need other things to go along with it. .. mlc is not the answer there. ..
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AvTvM said:
i did not say i do anything else... and i do not fight for their income...
i try to understand, it's a balace of interests. If you demand a 1DXii for the price of a PS camera (just for example), there is no solution, it can not be build for this price. There is no deal, no business for canon and no camera for you
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AvTvM said:
You're more even more deluded than I thought. So people are flocking from point-and-shoots to cell phones because phone cameras do everything they want regarding photography in the pocket-sized piece of electronics they have with them anyway. This integration is the killer feature of phone cameras and the reason separate compact cameras are going away. And there you are, seriously thinking that what consumers really want is actually a separate camera that's even bulkier than compacts, with features they neither need nor want like interchangeable lenses... I mean, there's being wrong and then there's medical-grade delusion.
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BINGO! WE HAVE A WINNER!Chuck Alaimo said:
Most people are just looking for something that takes "acceptable" pictures, and for them, a cell phone is good enough. Short of making cell phones, it does not matter what Canon, Nikon, Sony, or Olympus do.... that market is GONE! So what is left? It's the market for "real" cameras for professionals and enthusiasts.... and that is where Canon and Nikon are duking it out for top spot.
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From By Thom: "Battleship Canon just fired a salvo at the Cruiser Nikon. And it hit hard. Mostly because Nikon put their bow right where it was vulnerable ...So what to make of all this? Simple. Canon has decided that if the camera market is going to continue to collapse, the only way for them to grow sales is to take down competitors. Game on ...Sony is in Battleship Canon’s sights, too." http://www.dslrbodies.com/newsviews/whoop-there-it-is.html
This should get interesting in the next few months. CES isn't that far away.
This should get interesting in the next few months. CES isn't that far away.
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Sharlin said:
use of the words "deluded" and "delusion" gives you away as member of the (paid?) Canon Defense League.
What photo enthusiasts like me want is a camera system that provides WAY more photographic functionality and possibilities than a smartphone. I am willing to *pay a LOT more* and to carry *a reasonable BIT more* for this. I - and millions of others like me :_D - are NOT any longer willing to lug around a mirroslapping, essentially 19th century mechanical piece of gear and big fat junks of metal and glass.
What I want is really simple. A Canon mirrorless FF body with size, weight and form factor exactly like Sony RX1R II, but with a native short flange distance lens mount up front. To take native Canon "EF-X" lense, AF-only, no manual focus cr*p included, decent optical quality, as compact as possible, affordably priced, IP67 weather-sealed please. Red ring, "premium" or "L" moniker not required. So simple. Just do it, stupid Canon.
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Canon offers lower priced cameras and lenses with features that don't justify an upgrade for many.
And the higher priced Canon cameras and lenses miss essential features and qualities and are 10-40% too expensive.
Although I bought nearly each and every new Canon product over the years, I understand each one who don't, and know lots of people who see it the way described above.
If in 2017 Sony releases the expected mirrorless fusion out of A99II and A7RII plus some missing lenses like a 16-35/2.8 and 70-400 or 100-400, there are hardly any reasons left to invest in a Canon system other than brand loyalty.
And the higher priced Canon cameras and lenses miss essential features and qualities and are 10-40% too expensive.
Although I bought nearly each and every new Canon product over the years, I understand each one who don't, and know lots of people who see it the way described above.
If in 2017 Sony releases the expected mirrorless fusion out of A99II and A7RII plus some missing lenses like a 16-35/2.8 and 70-400 or 100-400, there are hardly any reasons left to invest in a Canon system other than brand loyalty.
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What is delusional is the belief that YOUR wishes are shared by millions.
What is delusional is the belief that an enterprise with trillions of yen in capital costs is STUPID for not meeting your wishes exactly (including selling at a loss).
What is delusional is the belief that an enterprise with trillions of yen in capital costs is STUPID for not meeting your wishes exactly (including selling at a loss).
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retroreflection said:
Don't think so. My experience tells me otherwise. Whenever I want to do or buy something interesting, there is *millions of people* ahead of me in line up. This whole "delusional" yada yada is nothing but a demagogic trick people like Neuro and yourself are constantly trying to pull off, when you are out of arguments.
And while I would love to see Canon sell something at a loss, I know perfectly well, they never will. All I am asking for is *affordable prices* for *decent gear.* (=very good, but not "stellar").
I am sure a € 1999 Canon "RX1R II sized" FF MILC plus compact, optically decent, affordable EF-X lenses [think along the lines of EF 40/2.8 STM and EF 50/1.8 STM] would sell well and Canon would turn a decent profit on it.
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