DPR reviews d5500 and says it is a ISO-invariant camera.

[Marsu42]

And this is made possible by the incredibly low noise floor of what we're calling an 'ISO-invariant' camera."

Well, this says it, it's just a matter of definition? Because you have a large dynamic range and nearly no shadow noise, you can shoot first and worry about exposure (i.e. iso or +-ev in post) later. This is unless you're not being dynamic range limited.

"what do you have to give up to get more DR? Are the trade-offs worth it to you?"
I do not know what tradeoffs exist to get more DR. Would love to learn, if you can explain.

To get more low ISO DR than Canon delivers, you need to choose a camera system other than Canon.

Nah, just install a free piece of software and get more dynamic range than even Sonikon provides.

 

[candc]

And this is made possible by the incredibly low noise floor of what we're calling an 'ISO-invariant' camera."

Well, this says it, it's just a matter of definition? Because you have a large dynamic range and nearly no shadow noise, you can shoot first and worry about exposure (i.e. iso or +-ev in post) later. This is unless you're not being dynamic range limited.

"what do you have to give up to get more DR? Are the trade-offs worth it to you?"
I do not know what tradeoffs exist to get more DR. Would love to learn, if you can explain.

To get more low ISO DR than Canon delivers, you need to choose a camera system other than Canon.

Nah, just install a free piece of software and get more dynamic range than even Sonikon provides.

Hi Marsu,

I have ml on my 6d and it has some really useful features. the dual iso does exactly what you are saying. i think its a bit of a hassle processing the images but what i found is that that extra dr doesn't really make much difference in most situations so i don't use it very often. so if i have it available to me and don't use it much then to me its certainly not worth switching to sony or nikon to get it.

 

[mackguyver]

I read the review as well, but can't reconcile it with DxOMark's measurements:

If the sensor was truly, "ISO-invariant," wouldn't the line need to go straight across along the 14 Ev x-axis? I can definitely see where it could yield good results boosting the shadows like this, but calling it ISO-invarient is like all of the lenses labelled APO that really aren't apochromatic.

 

[ritholtz]

I read the review as well, but can't reconcile it with DxOMark's measurements:

If the sensor was truly, "ISO-invariant," wouldn't the line need to go straight across along the 14 Ev x-axis? I can definitely see where it could yield good results boosting the shadows like this, but calling it ISO-invarient is like all of the lenses labelled APO that really aren't apochromatic.

DPReview seems to be pushing this idea of +5EV push. Their reviews are including these tests and references to dxo numbers a lot.

 

[privatebydesign]

I read the review as well, but can't reconcile it with DxOMark's measurements:

If the sensor was truly, "ISO-invariant," wouldn't the line need to go straight across along the 14 Ev x-axis? I can definitely see where it could yield good results boosting the shadows like this, but calling it ISO-invarient is like all of the lenses labelled APO that really aren't apochromatic.

No, I think it means that as you go up one stop of iso you lose one stop of DR, so the line should be straight and angled down left to right one stop up iso to one stop down DR. Which it is very close to doing.

So it seems the real DR killer is gain, and that is simply because gain is noisy.

 

[mackguyver]

It seems I posted the wrong graph. I meant to post the Signal-to-Noise Ration (SNR) chart. When I went back to grab the correct chart, I found that DxO has added some cool new measurements for for SNR, color response, and color sensitivity. Check them out here - and it looks like they have added them to all of the cameras:

http://www.dxomark.com/Cameras/Nikon/D5500---Measurements

 

[privatebydesign]

It seems I posted the wrong graph. I meant to post the Signal-to-Noise Ration (SNR) chart. When I went back to grab the correct chart, I found that DxO has added some cool new measurements for for SNR, color response, and color sensitivity. Check them out here - and it looks like they have added them to all of the cameras:

http://www.dxomark.com/Cameras/Nikon/D5500---Measurements

I had never noticed before, but if you put your cursor over the red-green bar on the right side you get an image overlay in the graph. Very cool. Shame they don't give it any context, magnification etc, but interesting.

 

[Loswr]

It seems I posted the wrong graph. I meant to post the Signal-to-Noise Ration (SNR) chart. When I went back to grab the correct chart, I found that DxO has added some cool new measurements for for SNR, color response, and color sensitivity. Check them out here - and it looks like they have added them to all of the cameras:

http://www.dxomark.com/Cameras/Nikon/D5500---Measurements

I had never noticed before, but if you put your cursor over the red-green bar on the right side you get an image overlay in the graph. Very cool. Shame they don't give it any context, magnification etc, but interesting.

I've seen the additional measures before, don't recall if it was for specific cameras. The image overlay has been there for quite some time.

 

[mackguyver]

It seems I posted the wrong graph. I meant to post the Signal-to-Noise Ration (SNR) chart. When I went back to grab the correct chart, I found that DxO has added some cool new measurements for for SNR, color response, and color sensitivity. Check them out here - and it looks like they have added them to all of the cameras:

http://www.dxomark.com/Cameras/Nikon/D5500---Measurements

I had never noticed before, but if you put your cursor over the red-green bar on the right side you get an image overlay in the graph. Very cool. Shame they don't give it any context, magnification etc, but interesting.

I've seen the additional measures before, don't recall if it was for specific cameras. The image overlay has been there for quite some time.

I think the overlay has been there for quite some time, but this was the first time I had noticed the Full SNR, Full Color, etc. graphs. Then again, I don't go there too often to look at sensor stuff.

 

[Marsu42]

If the sensor was truly, "ISO-invariant," wouldn't the line need to go straight across along the 14 Ev x-axis?

DPReview seems to be pushing this idea of +5EV push.

Let's not forget dpreview isn't as "matter of fact" as lensrentals, and dpr's reviews (esp. the early ones) are to be read with caution. If they write about a iso-less camera, it would be to achieve what they did with this thread: have the internet photog communitiy talk about dpr and link to them.

 

[Aglet]

Here's another example of what's possible with a new camera...who's missing now?

OOooh. a niche feature for niche situations that save a little time in post for a niche purpose.
fabulous breakthru .. for some. (yawn)

I'll take the cleaner raw file over flicker feature any day.

I will tell my students of photography:

"Give up learning to use a camera, because Nikon have camera models fool-proof. Now it is useless to use ISO different because you can push the shadows entire 5 stops. : Forget things like color depth, tonal gradation, for nothing is more important than Dynamic Range in ISO100". ??? :-[ :-X

Well, you CAN tell them that the lower noise raw files from ABC cameras will have better tonality and color accuracy as well as DR so that offers them more real latitude in post.

 

[Loswr]

OOooh. a niche feature for niche situations that save a little time in post for a niche purpose.
fabulous breakthru .. for some. (yawn)

Riiiiiight...because needing to push your images 5 stops in post is so...you know...commonplace, everyday, and non-niche-y. Granted, it's a fabulously important feature for all the top lens cap photographers... (yourself included, naturally)

 

[emko]

"what do you have to give up to get more DR? Are the trade-offs worth it to you?"
I do not know what tradeoffs exist to get more DR. Would love to learn, if you can explain.

To get more low ISO DR than Canon delivers, you need to choose a camera system other than Canon. If you use a Canon system, you are presumably aware of the advantages it offers over other brands. Alternatively, if you can't think of any advantages, then you should strongly consider switching if low ISO DR is important to you.

Ah. That way. Thanks. Understood. Instead of switching I will wait for Canon to fix the issue.

Adding just a bit more: every improvement or innovation costs the manufacturer money (R&D, tooling, training, etc). Canon has focused on lenses and some other improvements (e.g. anti-flicker) and, we assume, reliability testing since there have been fewer/less serious problems with new Canon bodies than, e.g. Nikon, of late. If Canon dumped a bunch of money into sensor improvements they would have less for these other improvements, or their prices would increase. So far, market share data says they're making the correct business decision.

To echo Neuro's statement, however, I don't think anyone here would turn a nose up at more DR so long as it doesn't mean loss of current Canon advantages.

?? was the D800 at 36mp not cheaper then the 5D3?

 

[emko]

OOooh. a niche feature for niche situations that save a little time in post for a niche purpose.
fabulous breakthru .. for some. (yawn)

Riiiiiight...because needing to push your images 5 stops in post is so...you know...commonplace, everyday, and non-niche-y. Granted, it's a fabulously important feature for all the top lens cap photographers... (yourself included, naturally)

i never push exposure 5 stops, i do how ever push the shadows to 100 in lightroom by shooting for highlights i can tell you Sony sensor has a LOT less noise doing this. Any amount of pushing results in the Sony sensor looking a lot better why must it be 6 stops? i think the Sony is just so much better that it CAN push 6 stops but the first few stops look very good compared to a bunch of noise that Canon will produce. Look at people using ML's Dual ISO sacrificing resolution for more DR i don't get why people who shot in situations that does not require DR talk crap to people that would love to have it?

 

[Aglet]

OOooh. a niche feature for niche situations that save a little time in post for a niche purpose.
fabulous breakthru .. for some. (yawn)

Riiiiiight...because needing to push your images 5 stops in post is so...you know...commonplace, everyday, and non-niche-y. Granted, it's a fabulously important feature for all the top lens cap photographers... (yourself included, naturally)

The need/want for clean raw files is likely far more common an occurence than for artificial lighting flicker correction; for the latter there's at least a partial work-around while shooting for those who understand the problem.
There's no workaround for Canon's raw file quality other than when you make your equipment purchase decision.

 

[privatebydesign]

There are a couple of things people seem to be missing here.

First, from 800iso up (basically) all manufacturers/sensors are the same, same DR, same noise, which are close to meaning the same thing anyway. So all this heated side taking only relates to 800iso and below. Now I practically never shoot at 800iso and never above it, so I should own an Exmor, but I don't for other reasons that make perfect sense for my uses. Other never shoot below 800iso so al this DR talk is entirely moot for them anyway.

Second, the "ISO-invarient" tag misses the mark slightly. As DR decreases all you are doing with underexposure is moving the available DR up the scene, you save the highlights, for sure, but the shadows are still wretched, 6 stops is 6 stops, choose where you want the 6 stops of detail. Underexpose and that six stops is in the top range of the image, expose 'correctly' and the six stops of detail is on the middle, overexpose and the six stops is in the shadows, it is not magic and no sensor is much better than any other much over 800iso because gain is the overriding noise and is limiting the DR of all sensors.

 

[Loswr]

There's no workaround for Canon's raw file quality other than when you make your equipment purchase decision.

Only a small minority seem to think there's a problem, meaning there's not much need for a workaround.

By the way, what's the workaround for the a7R's shutter vibration problem? What's the workaround for the lack of avaibility of an ultrawide PC-E lens for the D810? Oh, yes...a different equipment purchase decision.

 

[Aglet]

..By the way, what's the workaround for the a7R's shutter vibration problem?

A D810.

What's the workaround for the lack of avaibility of an ultrawide PC-E lens for the D810?

A Sony A7 series with an adapted TS-E 17mm.

Oh, yes...a different equipment purchase decision.

yep! Still ABC body.

 

[Loswr]

At least you got one thing right:

(yawn)

 

[sanj]

There are a couple of things people seem to be missing here.

First, from 800iso up (basically) all manufacturers/sensors are the same, same DR, same noise, which are close to meaning the same thing anyway. So all this heated side taking only relates to 800iso and below. Now I practically never shoot at 800iso and never above it, so I should own an Exmor, but I don't for other reasons that make perfect sense for my uses. Other never shoot below 800iso so al this DR talk is entirely moot for them anyway.

Second, the "ISO-invarient" tag misses the mark slightly. As DR decreases all you are doing with underexposure is moving the available DR up the scene, you save the highlights, for sure, but the shadows are still wretched, 6 stops is 6 stops, choose where you want the 6 stops of detail. Underexpose and that six stops is in the top range of the image, expose 'correctly' and the six stops of detail is on the middle, overexpose and the six stops is in the shadows, it is not magic and no sensor is much better than any other much over 800iso because gain is the overriding noise and is limiting the DR of all sensors.

If that is the case then I am at ease because most of my photography is at ISO 800 and above. And low ISO is mostly when I attempt landscapes - then the camera is on a tripod and I bracket shots. But I would certainly want the best of all worlds with the market leader which includes the best sensor along with best lenses etc..

Here is a shot which was 'under exposed' around 2 stops and still the whites are blown. If I had underexposed it more where the whites still had detail and was confident of bring up the shadows in post, I might have been better off. Or perhaps there is something wrong with my thinking here - there could well be, I am learning.