EOS 5D Mark IV - the crippled generalist

[unfocused]

...Where people sometimes seem to struggle is when they compare what they consider (correctly or incorrectly) as direct competitors between Canon and other brands, and they believe that the grass is greener on the other side of the fence...

...I share the feeling that Canon at the moment is giving rather conservative specs to their products vs. competition and that they might be a little bit in complacency mode. Future sales numbers will be able to tell if the feeling was right or wrong.

Canon and Nikon are both conservative companies. That's just the nature of market leaders. The consequences to Canon or Nikon for implementing half-baked technological improvements are much greater than for a company like Sony, which does not have a large installed user base or the century-long reputation to maintain.

What is consistent about Canon (and what keeps so many of their customers loyal) is that the company consistently underpromises and overdelivers. Invariably, when a new major release is announced, you will see complaints about how Canon did not include this or that feature that competitors include in their comparable models. That is also, invariably, followed by users who, once they actually get the camera in their hands and start using it, raving about how great the camera is and how much better it performs than the spec sheet might indicate.

That usually leads to the camera dominating its market segment. The best case in point is the 6D, which was widely panned as being significantly under-spec'd in comparison to the competing Nikon model. Yet, people who bought the 6D consistently rave about how well the camera performs and what sales figure are available seem to indicate that it may be the best selling full frame camera ever.

That's why so many of us have concluded that those who insist Canon is somehow "behind" in the market don't really understand what is going on in the market. Canon is conservative, but certainly not complacent. If you want the longest spec sheet of features, Canon and Nikon are not the cameras for you. If you want a tool that you can depend on day in and day out for years, there are really only two choices.

 

[ritholtz]

...Where people sometimes seem to struggle is when they compare what they consider (correctly or incorrectly) as direct competitors between Canon and other brands, and they believe that the grass is greener on the other side of the fence...

...I share the feeling that Canon at the moment is giving rather conservative specs to their products vs. competition and that they might be a little bit in complacency mode. Future sales numbers will be able to tell if the feeling was right or wrong.

Canon and Nikon are both conservative companies. That's just the nature of market leaders. The consequences to Canon or Nikon for implementing half-baked technological improvements are much greater than for a company like Sony, which does not have a large installed user base or the century-long reputation to maintain.

What is consistent about Canon (and what keeps so many of their customers loyal) is that the company consistently underpromises and overdelivers. Invariably, when a new major release is announced, you will see complaints about how Canon did not include this or that feature that competitors include in their comparable models. That is also, invariably, followed by users who, once they actually get the camera in their hands and start using it, raving about how great the camera is and how much better it performs than the spec sheet might indicate.

That usually leads to the camera dominating its market segment. The best case in point is the 6D, which was widely panned as being significantly under-spec'd in comparison to the competing Nikon model. Yet, people who bought the 6D consistently rave about how well the camera performs and what sales figure are available seem to indicate that it may be the best selling full frame camera ever.

That's why so many of us have concluded that those who insist Canon is somehow "behind" in the market don't really understand what is going on in the market. Canon is conservative, but certainly not complacent. If you want the longest spec sheet of features, Canon and Nikon are not the cameras for you. If you want a tool that you can depend on day in and day out for years, there are really only two choices.

If Canon released 5d4 with similar video AF limitation as a99 ii (video AF only in P mode and that is fixed with f/3.5 aperture), there will be thread from romanr74 talking about how canon doomed, under specked and going to file chapter 11 soon.

Regarding lack of FF mirrorless camera from Canon, I think Canon has all the parts and technology needed. Look at how big and expensive is latest sony 70-200 f/2.8 lens. They can just make FF mirrorless body with EF mount. DPAF is also less complicated in terms of lens compatibility compared to hybrid Sony PDAF which needs constant updates to lens and adapters firmware for each iteration. I guess, Canon is just taking their time based on their own market research.

 

[dak723]

That's why so many of us have concluded that those who insist Canon is somehow "behind" in the market don't really understand what is going on in the market. Canon is conservative, but certainly not complacent. If you want the longest spec sheet of features, Canon and Nikon are not the cameras for you. If you want a tool that you can depend on day in and day out for years, there are really only two choices.

Please, delete this paragraph...it is obviously far too rational (not to mention accurate) for this forum.

Honestly, if I were you, I would cut and paste this paragraph and use it in every "Canon is doomed" or "Let's start a list of all the things missing from Canon's latest DSLR" thread.

 

[romanr74]

If Canon released 5d4 with similar video AF limitation as a99 ii (video AF only in P mode and that is fixed with f/3.5 aperture), there will be thread from romanr74 talking about how canon doomed, under specked and going to file chapter 11 soon.

what is so difficult about reading what people write? i never said anything like doomed or chapter 11.

 

[Monchoon]

If Canon released 5d4 with similar video AF limitation as a99 ii (video AF only in P mode and that is fixed with f/3.5 aperture), there will be thread from romanr74 talking about how canon doomed, under specked and going to file chapter 11 soon.

what is so difficult about reading what people write? i never said anything like doomed or chapter 11.

I have to agree " what is so difficult about reading what people write?"

Where did he write that you said that?

 

[ritholtz]

If Canon released 5d4 with similar video AF limitation as a99 ii (video AF only in P mode and that is fixed with f/3.5 aperture), there will be thread from romanr74 talking about how canon doomed, under specked and going to file chapter 11 soon.

what is so difficult about reading what people write? i never said anything like doomed or chapter 11.

I have to agree " what is so difficult about reading what people write?"

Where did he write that you said that?

I am talking about somebody creating a thread about Canon doom in the future. I should have avoided using his name as a place holder.

 

[Maiaibing]

Absolutely.
People complained about specifications of the 5D2 and the company kept growing
People complained about the time it took to release the 7D2 and complained about how it was out of date before it was even released and an indicator of Canon's lack of imagination. And the company kept growing
People complained about specifications of the 5D3 and how they were going to impact future growth... and yes... the company kept growing
People complained about how the 1DX2 had not really taken the 1DX line forward and developments were disappointingly incremental...but the Professionals really like it and buy it for the total package...and it looks like the company is still growing.

I wonder who Canon is listening to?

Canon at least claims to listen to the market place and is painfully aware of the fact that its DSLR sales have clollapsed over the last 5 years, that is meanwhile misjudged the DSLR market and that it needs to devise a strategy to turn around its fledging camera business.

May I suggest you read the last few years of Canon investor relations materials where all this is available.

There were lots of very strong opinions on what Canon would bring to the 5DIV and why. And the majority view here at CR Forums seemed to be more or less the opposite of what turned out to be the reality: Canon asked 5DIII users what they wanted the most and accordingly gave the 5DIV 1) More MPIX 2) Better AF 3) Better DR.

Overall, based on my time here, CR Forum members seem to be unusually off-target when it comes to Canon as a company and Canon's marketing strategies.

 

[neuroanatomist]

Overall, based on my time here, CR Forum members seem to be unusually off-target when it comes to Canon as a company and Canon's marketing strategies.

Very true. I think that is due, in large part, to people mistakenly thinking their own personal desires are representative of a majority of Canon customers.

 

[romanr74]

I should have avoided using his name as a place holder.

tx

 

[Mikehit]

There may be something 'lost in translation' but...

Canon at least claims to listen to the market place and is painfully aware of the fact that its DSLR sales have clollapsed over the last 5 years the whole DSLR market dropped, and Canon seems to have kept pace better than the opposition, that is meanwhile misjudged the DSLR market and that it needs to devise a strategy to turn around its fledging camera business. who misjudged? Canon's business is hardly 'fledging'

May I suggest you read the last few years of Canon investor relations materials where all this is available.

There were lots of very strong opinions on what Canon would bring to the 5DIV and why. And the majority view here at CR Forums seemed to be more or less the opposite of what turned out to be the reality: Canon asked 5DIII users what they wanted the most and accordingly gave the 5DIV 1) More MPIX 2) Better AF 3) Better DR. Isn't that what they got?

Overall, based on my time here, CR Forum members seem to be unusually off-target when it comes to Canon as a company and Canon's marketing strategies. problem is that strategies are divined form what people see as a trend over recent years and at the moment the favourite topic to pick on is that 'Canon are unadventurous and only cares about market differentiation'. I don't go along with that myself but there comes a point that perception effectively becomes reality and once that 'reality' takes hold in peoples' minds the company has a problem irrespective of its merits

 

[Maiaibing]

There may be something 'lost in translation' but...

Canon at least claims to listen to the market place and is painfully aware of the fact that its DSLR sales have clollapsed over the last 5 years the whole DSLR market dropped, and Canon seems to have kept pace better than the opposition, that is meanwhile misjudged the DSLR market and that it needs to devise a strategy to turn around its fledging camera business. who misjudged? Canon's business is hardly 'fledging' Just using Canon's own investor info here. If you know better I suggest you contact them to set their investor information right.



There were lots of very strong opinions on what Canon would bring to the 5DIV and why. And the majority view here at CR Forums seemed to be more or less the opposite of what turned out to be the reality: Canon asked 5DIII users what they wanted the most and accordingly gave the 5DIV 1) More MPIX 2) Better AF 3) Better DR. Isn't that what they got? Yes??? I am highlighting that Canon makes an effort to understand its customers - and that people here are not very representative as they have other priorities/wishes/hopes such as wanting fewer MPIX for the 5DIV and not seeing any reasons to improve the 5DIII AF.

 

[Mikehit]

Thank you for the clarification Miaibing - I misread your second point but it makes sense now.

 

[tron]

"Crippled" or not I ordered one. I do have 2 5D3 cameras that I will not easily sell but I know the reasons for 5D4. More pixels (but not so many), much better DR in low ISO, better AF and EC in auto iso manual exposure mode (a feature that newer cameras like 5Ds(R) and 7D2 have and that they could easily add to 5D3 via firmware). I do not care about video but I care about some ML features for stills that I will lose. Anyway I will test it thoroughly before selling even one 5D3...

 

[TWI by Dustin Abbott]

I've got a new highly detailed examination of the high ISO performance of the 5D Mark IV as compared to the 6D (the best high ISO performer of the previous gen of Canon cameras).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iAN3ElBtMyU

 

[JohnMcDi]

Some action photos of MKIV from the Thailand round of japanese SuperGT series.

 

[Dick]

I don't know why discussions always go to this retarded direction. Seriously? If there is something someone doesn't like in a camera, the manufacturer's strategy related guessing game changes nothing. Neither do sales. Canon may beat Nikon in sales. Nikon can still have better sensors. Should people prefer the Canon sensors, because the bodies they are housed in generate better profits for the manufacturer? I work with corporate strategies. It's my job. So far I have not felt the need to discuss such things on camera forums. Aren't we discussing products after all? Cost cutting is a lame excuse to justify short comings in expensive gear - especially if competitors can do better and still offer more affordable alternatives.

I'm not a brand fan boy. Love the Canon lenses (especially the 85L2), but dislike the performance of the camera bodies. If there were such great lenses for Nikon, I would have sold my Canon gear a while ago already. The strategies and sales numbers are completely irrelevant to me.

 

[Mikehit]

Should people prefer the Canon sensors, because the bodies they are housed in generate better profits for the manufacturer? I work with corporate strategies. It's my job. So far I have not felt the need to discuss such things. Aren't we discussing products after all? Cost cutting is a lame excuse to justify short comings in expensive gear - especially if competitors can do better and still offer more affordable alternatives.

For someone who does corporate strategies for a living how can you miss the obvious - different priorities?
I presume you are accusing Sony of 'cost cutting' by not having a AF system as good as Canon's. Or a system that blacks out the viewfinder at 10fps so you can't see what the heck it is you are tracking? Sony cost cutting in having an interface that is widely derided as poor? Sony cost cutting for offering some of the worst post-sales support which is an often quoted reason for professionals to not rely on Sony gear? Perhpas Sony cuyts back on these to maximise profits?
Or maybe both manufacturers are building cameras to a cost and make different compromises.

 

[neuroanatomist]

For someone who does corporate strategies for a living how can you miss the obvious - different priorities?

I know quite a few people who aren't very good at their jobs.

 

[unfocused]

I don't know why discussions always go to this retarded direction.

Clearly the corporate strategies you are familiar with are pretty tone-deaf and backward when it comes to the mentally challenged.

...Should people prefer the Canon sensors, because the bodies they are housed in generate better profits for the manufacturer?

Said no one...ever. Please find one example of anyone on this forum or anywhere else where someone has suggested this.

Many, many people have suggested that the success of Canon DSLRs in the marketplace are a sign that the company is meeting the needs and wants of its customers. If you don't understand the difference, than you clearly do not belong in the profession you claim to be in.

I work with corporate strategies. It's my job...Cost cutting is a lame excuse to justify short comings in expensive gear...

I'd be interested to learn of a company whose corporate strategy involves no consideration of cost. Please identify your company so I can make sure I never invest in it.

...especially if competitors can do better and still offer more affordable alternatives...Love the Canon lenses ...but dislike the performance of the camera bodies...

This is the heart of the matter. Many people do not believe that competitors can do better and still offer more affordable alternatives. In fact, having done our own evaluation, many of us have concluded that Canon offers the best product for our needs. If you disagree, then you shouldn't buy Canon. No one else cares.

Now, going back to the marketplace. It is reasonable and rational to argue that Canon's success in the marketplace is due to its customers having decided that Canon offers the best products for the money. That is why people cite sales figures and the success of Canon in the marketplace. If you cannot understand that, then I can only wonder what job you have in corporate strategy – does it involve a mop and a bucket, a mailroom or maybe a copying machine?

 

[Alex_M]

If you thought that Canon gear was expensive, then please see if you can justify the price of these two Nikon lenses that will be anounced shortly. Some people commented that for the price of the tilt-shift lens alone they can buy the Canon 5D Mark III and Canon 17mm TS lens and still be better of...

http://nikonrumors.com/2016/10/18/price-of-two-upcoming-nikon-lenses-leaked-in-japan-nikkor-19mm-f4e-ed-tilt-shift-and-70-200mm-f2-8e-fl-ed-vr.aspx/

.. Cost cutting is a lame excuse to justify short comings in expensive gear - especially if competitors can do better and still offer more affordable alternatives.

...If there were such great lenses for Nikon, I would have sold my Canon gear a while ago already...