EOS 5D Mark IV Update [CR2]

[unfocused]

My two cents (maybe overpriced)

24 mp sounds about right. The 6DII will have higher mp count (28-30) more in keeping with it's use as a landscape camera. Canon won't make the mistake again of giving the 6D better low light performance than the 5D.

Expect about 8 fps. 10 is too much to expect.

Autofocus unlikely to get a huge improvement. Canon needs to keep some differentiation between the 5D and 1D and that pretty much comes down to autofocus and frame rate.

Don't know enough about video to know what is meant or possible in regards to "better" than 1D X II. Touch screen will be a given. Maybe flip screen as well. To be "better" it probably needs a cfast slot, but I'd be a little surprised by that, as it would mean giving up either cf or sd. Could have the electronic zoom of the 70/80D. Not sure what other features could be added, but Canon probably has more headroom to add video features than still features, since the 1D X market is not really video-oriented.

Only thing guaranteed is that this forum will light up with people complaining once it is announced and yet it will sell very well.

 

[Loswr]

Only thing guaranteed is that this forum will light up with people complaining once it is announced and yet it will sell very well.

Nonsense. That can't possibly happen because some people on this forum know so much better than Canon how Canon should design/build/market their products. Clearly, if the 5DIV has a reflex mirror and/or less than 14 stops of DR, then it's DoA.

 

[Famateur]

My only-slightly-educated-speculation...

<guessing>

• 25MP
  LoneRider, I like the deduction on 28MP. I'm just not convinced Canon will go that high. Still, 24-28MP bookend what I'd consider a realistic range.
  .
  
• 7-8FPS
  There's a point where frame rates get high enough that it will get the job done for sports/action, regardless of the product tier. I would suspect that 10FPS in a 5D body would cause too many people to opt for it over a 1-series body, just from a cost basis. It seems realistic to me that FPS is increased as an improvement, but only slightly so as not to overreach its positioning.
  .
  
• 4K@60, 1080@120
  Having better video than 1DXII seems totally plausible to me. The 1DXII has great video for photojournalists or those that need good quality video occasionally but primarily shoot fast-action stills. It's price is about machine-gun stills, AF accuracy, ruggedness, et cetera. Canon will try to bring back some of the 5DII-style love from the video shooters out there. That said, I think the improvements in the 5DX over the 1DXII will be things like external recording, higher bit depth, better codec, focus peaking, et cetera.
  .
  
• Dual Pixel AF
  Seems like a no-brainer to me.
  .
  
• Articulating Touch Screen
  I'm not sure I'm convinced Canon will put one in their higher end bodies (hopefully, it will at least be on the 6DII), but it would be a realistic video-centric feature (and one that I would love as a stills shooter). I predict touchscreen for sure, coin-flip on articulating.
  .
  
• 1DXII AF System
  My guess is same layout, slightly less capability/speed compared to 1DXII.

.

• $3,299-$3,699
  That's admittedly a fairly wide range, but it reflects two somewhat opposing factors. First, the same economic and currency conditions that brought the 1DXII price down from its predecessor will likely affect the 5DX price. So I clearly can't choose the $3,699 price in front of you! But! The improvements in dynamic range and rumored high-end video capabilities may command a higher intro price, so I clearly can't choose the $3,299 in front of me! It wouldn't surprise me if it happens to come in at $3,499, just like the 5DIII did.

</guessing>

 

[J.R.]

What I would like to see in ANY camera which has video: longer maximum duration of a video recording. The 30 mins that the 5D3 had and the A7RII has, are to little.

Well, you'd need to take that up with the EU Parliment.

Not to mention that many other countries outside the EU impose additional customs duty on anything that records over 29m 59s of video. Even if you are, as an individual willing to pay the cost, the camera companies are unlikely to listen ... It will make no business sense.

 

[Famateur]

My two cents (maybe overpriced)

24 mp sounds about right. The 6DII will have higher mp count (28-30) more in keeping with it's use as a landscape camera. Canon won't make the mistake again of giving the 6D better low light performance than the 5D.

Expect about 8 fps. 10 is too much to expect.

Autofocus unlikely to get a huge improvement. Canon needs to keep some differentiation between the 5D and 1D and that pretty much comes down to autofocus and frame rate.

Don't know enough about video to know what is meant or possible in regards to "better" than 1D X II. Touch screen will be a given. Maybe flip screen as well. To be "better" it probably needs a cfast slot, but I'd be a little surprised by that, as it would mean giving up either cf or sd. Could have the electronic zoom of the 70/80D. Not sure what other features could be added, but Canon probably has more headroom to add video features than still features, since the 1D X market is not really video-oriented.

Only thing guaranteed is that this forum will light up with people complaining once it is announced and yet it will sell very well.

I probably should have read the warning about others posting while I was writing! Could have saved myself the time, as you pretty much covered it.

Plus, I forgot about card slots. That's a lose/lose for Canon no matter how they do it. Double CFast? Compact Flash and SD people howl. One CFast and one SD? Compact Flash and perfect redundancy people howl. Double SD? CFast and Compact Flash people howl. You get the idea.

On the AF system, am I mistaken in thinking that the 1DX and 5DIII share the same AF layout but differing AF speed and AI-Servo capabilities? If so, then I'll make my prediction more generic and say that I think Canon will follow the same differentiation paradigm as the 1DX/5DIII for the 1DXII/5DX.

While a 6DII that is essentially a full frame 70D with current sensor tech would make me do the happy dance, I'm keenly interested in the 5DX release as it might just be too much to resist while waiting for a (perhaps unlikely) 6DII as described.

 

[J.R.]

People thinking they'll get something like a mini 1DC with 4K, a bigger sensor (without the 14 fps) are simply deluding themselves.

If something very important isn't in the 1DX2 it is unlikely to find itself in the 5 series.

Most of the upgrades in the 1DX 2 are on the video side ... I don't think canon will rain on its own parade here.

 

[Sporgon]

I still think we may see an interchangeable viewfinder on the next 5D, especially as the rumours are suggesting it will be more video orientated than the 1 series. When I suggested this about 1 year ago PBD said that this kind of groundbreaking feature has always come in the 1 series first, and I agree in the past it has, but now I see more of a parting of the ways; the 1 series is more of a serious sports, action, wildlife, photojournalists camera than ever; I don't see much video being used but I've come across many using the 5 series for professional filming.

An interchangeable finder is nothing new on an slr, many pro film models had them. In this modern age it could have a prism for OVF, and an interchangeable focusing screen: you unclip and slide the prism out and lift the screen out of the body. Or an EVF can be fitted. Slide it in, the electrical connections plug in, and the mirror is automatically raised out of the way. Shutter opens aka live view. The camera then focuses using DPAF. You could fit an oversized monitor for serious work, rather than eye-level.

Since Canon introduced DPAF I was sure they intended to make much greater use of it rather than just have it used for amateur home video.

 

[StudentOfLight]

The Crystal Ball shows:

24MP
10fps
4k - 120fps
1080p- 240fps
C-Log
Reticulating screen

I really want to hope you are correct on the 10FPS, gosh darn it I would be happy. But if my math is correct, for full sensor width 4K, assuming 3 native pixels per 4K video pixel, it will be just over 28MP.

I must admit, I am really surprised I have yet to read any ya's or na's on my hypothesis for deducing ~28MP

What do you mean by 3 pixels into 1? Are you saying an output pixel is made up of an input 3x3 pixel array?

If we assume typical sensor aspect ratio of 3:2

resolution = (4096 x 3) x (4096 x 2)
= 100.7 MP

 

[rrcphoto]

I am not going to say heat dissipation is not a part of it. But, what you might be missing is the notion that yeah, an modern day intel processor can easily produce H.265 video right, but I can pretty well guarantee you that an OMAP processor, with designed in proprietary IP with its sole purpose of doing compression/decompression is going to do the same encoding with significantly less power.

and AGAIN. if it was this easy, canon would have done it already on the 1DX which for the most part would have been designed on the same timeline.

The fact that it's NOT in the 1DX most likely means it's not in the 5D Mark IV. these cameras are developed over a period of 3-5 years.

The fact that it's NOT in the 1DXII, does not mean its not going to be in the 5D Mark IV.
Those are decisions made by Canon, not by us...

What you should be concerned about is... if it isn't in the 5DIV... which will last another 4 to 5 years...
What will the investers think?

seriously? investors?

they won't give a crap either way.

if canon couldn't fit the technology into the 1DX Mark II, their flagship DSLR - on what planet would it be magically appear on a lesser camera in the exact same development timeline?

 

[Tugela]

... Apparently the plans for the video features of the camera changed about a year ago and became an important part of the development of the camera. ...

I only hope that Canon will not overdo that video part. :
But I am sure they know that it is still a stills camera with video features and not the other way around.

They are cutting back on the stills side of things to funnel buyers into the 1DXII (vast piles of which would otherwise be gathering dust in warehouses). Market research (done by reading this site) shows that stills photographers are not interested in video, but on the other hand market results (from actual sales) demonstrate that MILCs with advanced video features are soaring. This presents a problem for Canon. Therefore, to protect their high end stills cameras, the stills functions on the 5DIV are being dumbed down to Rebel levels, while video functions are being improved in the hopes of catching up to last year's Sony products. The Canon executive team feels that this is the best approach for maximising profits to ensure that their supply of caviar and original art can be sustained.

 

[LoneRider]

hmm so how does the the 1Dxmkii do it at 18MP?

To my knowledge right now, the 1DX-ii crops to native pixels. So there are bars on either side and top and bottom. There was a lot of crying about the 4K on the 1DX-ii being cropped.

• 25MP
  LoneRider, I like the deduction on 28MP. I'm just not convinced Canon will go that high. Still, 24-28MP bookend what I'd consider a realistic range.
  .
  

To do anything under 28MP you would either have to crop for 4K or scale to get to 4K resolution (width wise) If they can natively just do 4K within the full sensor width, it would require a lot less processing (no 2D scaling), and without the scaling you would of course save battery, memory, and of course, less heat to dissipate

What do you mean by 3 pixels into 1? Are you saying an output pixel is made up of an input 3x3 pixel array?

If we assume typical sensor aspect ratio of 3:2

resolution = (4096 x 3) x (4096 x 2)
= 100.7 MP

So right now with Dual Pixels, 2 half size pixels, that are side by side, are used to create a single pixel.

Even with the computations for Bayer form

Instead of using 2 side by side DP pixels to create a image pixel, we use 3 of them to create a video pixel. So for stills it uses 2x1 array for each resulting pixel. In video it would use 3x1.

Now, one part I forgot, you would still have to scale in the Y. You would need a 0.666 scale in the Y.

So yeah, 1D scaling, but not 2D scaling for video.

 

[Famateur]

... Apparently the plans for the video features of the camera changed about a year ago and became an important part of the development of the camera. ...

I only hope that Canon will not overdo that video part. :
But I am sure they know that it is still a stills camera with video features and not the other way around.

They are cutting back on the stills side of things to funnel buyers into the 1DXII. Market research (done by reading this site) shows that stills photographers are not interested in video, but on the other hand market results (from actual sales) demonstrate that MILCs with advanced video features are soaring. This presents a problem for Canon. Therefore, to protect their high end stills cameras, the stills functions on the 5DIV are being dumbed down to Rebel levels, while video functions are being improved in the hopes of catching up to last year's Sony products. The Canon executive team feels that this is the best approach for maximising profits to ensure that their supply of caviar and original art can be sustained. [ ]

There -- I fixed it for you!

 

[LoneRider]

So, for 4K video to be be full width, utilizing the DP pixel doubling, here is a quick table.

DP pixels for each video pixel	Vertical Scale Factor	Actual pixels	3/4 Heidth	MP's
2	1	4096	3072	12.59
3	1.5	6144	4608	28.31
4	2	8192	6144	50.33

• 12.59 MP is too is too small for even APS-C cameras
• 28.31 MP is where I would expect the 5DX to come in at
• 50.33 MP would be really easy for a 5DS to record 4K. Basically it would be a simple 2X scale in the X and Y.

 

[Famateur]

If canon couldn't fit the technology into the 1DX Mark II, their flagship DSLR - on what planet would it be magically appear on a lesser camera in the exact same development timeline?

Perhaps the planet where the 70D has touchscreen with its DPAF, but 7DII doesn't.
Or the 5DS(R) without DPAF, but 70D, 7DII with DPAF.
Or a Powershot having Digic 7 when the 1DXII uses Digic 6+ chips (albeit dual).

Admittedly not exactly the same development timelines, but the 7DII is both higher tier and later release compared to 70D, and the 5DS(R) was newer and higher tier than the 7DII.

The point that was being made is that there will be feature-driven product positioning decisions made by Canon that some might not agree with or understand. That might include "lower" models of the same generation having one or two "better" features. It happens...

 

[slclick]

If canon couldn't fit the technology into the 1DX Mark II, their flagship DSLR - on what planet would it be magically appear on a lesser camera in the exact same development timeline?

Perhaps the planet where the 70D has touchscreen with its DPAF, but 7DII doesn't.
Or the 5DS(R) without DPAF, but 70D, 7DII with DPAF.
Or a Powershot having Digic 7 when the 1DXII uses Digic 6+ chips (albeit dual).

Admittedly not exactly the same development timelines, but the 7DII is both higher tier and later release compared to 70D, and the 5DS(R) was newer and higher tier than the 7DII.

The point that was being made is that there will be feature-driven product positioning decisions made by Canon that some might not agree with or understand. That might include "lower" models of the same generation having one or two "better" features. It happens...

I get the gist of your post but touchscreen being better is very subjective. Most shooters would rather use dials. Intuitive, faster and no need to move your hand positions or eye.

 

[Loswr]

...on the other hand market results (from actual sales) demonstrate that MILCs with advanced video features are soaring.

Yeah, they're soaring like

and

. :

 

[mkabi]

I am not going to say heat dissipation is not a part of it. But, what you might be missing is the notion that yeah, an modern day intel processor can easily produce H.265 video right, but I can pretty well guarantee you that an OMAP processor, with designed in proprietary IP with its sole purpose of doing compression/decompression is going to do the same encoding with significantly less power.

and AGAIN. if it was this easy, canon would have done it already on the 1DX which for the most part would have been designed on the same timeline.

The fact that it's NOT in the 1DX most likely means it's not in the 5D Mark IV. these cameras are developed over a period of 3-5 years.

The fact that it's NOT in the 1DXII, does not mean its not going to be in the 5D Mark IV.
Those are decisions made by Canon, not by us...

What you should be concerned about is... if it isn't in the 5DIV... which will last another 4 to 5 years...
What will the investers think?

seriously? investors?

they won't give a crap either way.

if canon couldn't fit the technology into the 1DX Mark II, their flagship DSLR - on what planet would it be magically appear on a lesser camera in the exact same development timeline?

That's your train of thought?
So, before last year... they didn't have a 50MP sensor in the 1DX so how would it appear in the 5DS????

They had the heat problem since 2012 with the 1DC... that's 4 years... your telling me that they couldn't find a work around??? And, cause its not in the 1DX mark 2, its not going to be in the 5D4?

All I'm saying is that they withheld it from the 1DX mark 2, is that really that hard to accept?
The year that the original 1DX was announced, 5D Mark 3 was also announced... one had a 18MP sensor and the other had a 22MP sensor. They withheld the 22MP from the 1DX, "their flagship DSLR."

 

[jeffa4444]

So, for 4K video to be be full width, utilizing the DP pixel doubling, here is a quick table.

DP pixels for each video pixel	Vertical Scale Factor	Actual pixels	3/4 Heidth	MP's
2	1	4096	3072	12.59
3	1.5	6144	4608	28.31
4	2	8192	6144	50.33

[/tab

• 12.59 MP is too is too small for even APS-C cameras
• 28.31 MP is where I would expect the 5DX to come in at
• 50.33 MP would be really easy for a 5DS to record 4K. Basically it would be a simple 2X scale in the X and Y.

You may well be correct at 28.31MP (time will tell) but Canon will not be giving a 5DX camera the kind of colorimagery it would reserve for its upcoming super 35 8K system. This means no H.265 for instance, no Rec.2020 and no lossless compression.

 

[bdunbar79]

... Apparently the plans for the video features of the camera changed about a year ago and became an important part of the development of the camera. ...

I only hope that Canon will not overdo that video part. :
But I am sure they know that it is still a stills camera with video features and not the other way around.

They are cutting back on the stills side of things to funnel buyers into the 1DXII (vast piles of which would otherwise be gathering dust in warehouses). Market research (done by reading this site) shows that stills photographers are not interested in video, but on the other hand market results (from actual sales) demonstrate that MILCs with advanced video features are soaring. This presents a problem for Canon. Therefore, to protect their high end stills cameras, the stills functions on the 5DIV are being dumbed down to Rebel levels, while video functions are being improved in the hopes of catching up to last year's Sony products. The Canon executive team feels that this is the best approach for maximising profits to ensure that their supply of caviar and original art can be sustained.

Once again, not only does the data NOT support what you say, it actually contradicts it. Keep smokin', must be some great stuff!

 

[SwnSng]

So, for 4K video to be be full width, utilizing the DP pixel doubling, here is a quick table.

DP pixels for each video pixel	Vertical Scale Factor	Actual pixels	3/4 Heidth	MP's
2	1	4096	3072	12.59
3	1.5	6144	4608	28.31
4	2	8192	6144	50.33

Thank for educating me on this.

The Crystal Ball now shows:

28MP
10 FPS
reticulated screen
C-Log
DPAF

• 12.59 MP is too is too small for even APS-C cameras
• 28.31 MP is where I would expect the 5DX to come in at
• 50.33 MP would be really easy for a 5DS to record 4K. Basically it would be a simple 2X scale in the X and Y.