Full Frame Sharper Than Crop?

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libertyranger said:
So I've been doing some research and comparing different lenses on The Digital Picture's ISO comparison tool. What I am seeing is that the the same lens on both full frame and crop cameras shows a sharper image on the full frame camera. According to Ken Rockwell, he states that full frame will always be sharper. I know people don't like quoting him much, but from what I see, he appears to be right.

FF is sharper than APS-C using the same lens at the same aperture at the 100% view if it has lower photosite density than the APS-C camera (very often this is the case) and the AA filters are not radically different between the two.
 
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I don't know sharper or not with FF, the #1 reason I went with FF is because I want to take pictures under low light - without flash.

I was happy with 5D II. I'm happier with 5D III now. I will be VERY HAPPY with 1D X in the future ;D
 
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Here are some simple calculations and experiments that show the 7D does give extra reach of about 45% over a 5D III. Theory tells us that in order to resolve two parallel lines, their images should be at least 2 pixels apart. On a 7D, which has a 4.3 µ pixel, that would be 8.6 µ apart and on a 5D III, with a 6.25 µ pixel, that would be 12.5 µ apart. For an object at a distance v, which is much further away than the focal length of the lens f, the size of the image is given by the size of the object times f/v. For the same lens on a 7D and the 5D III with a lens aperture wide enough so it is not diffraction limited (wider than f/6.9 for the 7D, 10.1 for the 5D III), the sizes of images on both sensors will be the same for the same distances but the image will span more pixels on the 7D. In order to cover two pixels, the object will be 1.45 times further away for the 7D. I did some experiments to test the resolution of the 7D fitted with an f/2.8 300mm II and 2xteleconverter to give f = 600mm and f/5.6. I photographed a feather whose barbs (middle right, below halfway) in the photo were approximately parallel lines separated by 0.27 mm or 0.31 mm (middle right, above halfway). At 5 m distance, nearly all the barbs, including others that were not parallel to the rows or columns of the sensors were very clearly resolved the calculated distances in the image were 16.1 and 18.7 µ, respectively, for the lower and upper sets. At 9 m separation, the barbs were still clearly resolvable, with calculated image sizes of 8.9 and 10.4 µ, just above the supposed limit for resolution of 8.6 µ. The barbs were just resolved at 12 m, with image sizes of 6.7 and 7.8 µ respectively. The images became unresolvable between 14 and 16 m. My calculations of height of image are reliable within 3 percent since the same calculations gave a pixel size of 4.4 µ for the 4.3 µ pixel. So, despite all its supposed limitations, the 7D resolves images at the closest theoretical limits. In order to have the clean separation seen at 9 m on a 7D, the feather would have to be at 6.2 m from the 5D. The transition of just being resolvable at 12 m from the 7D would be 8.3 m from the 5D, and the complete loss at 14-15 m from the 7D would be 9.6-10.7 m on the 5D. It doesn’t matter how superior the 5D III is than the 7D, the laws of optics and information theory dictate that at 9 m you can resolve the barbs of feathers on a 7 D but you see a blur with the 5D using a 600mm lens.
 

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Thanks, Alan.

I wonder, though - were you shooting at ISO 100? Many times, even with a stop more light than you've got at 600mm (bare 600 II at f/4), I find myself needing to use ISO 6400 on the 1D X to get the necessary motion-stopping shutter speed. How do you think the resolving power of the 7D's higher pixel density would hold up compared to the 1D X at ISO 6400?
 
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I was shooting at iso 200. I post photos on a very picky bird website - if it's not tack sharp or free of noise, it will be rejected by the moderators. The noise level at 6400 on a 1D X would be unacceptable for that site. My data are useful for when you have to resolve fine detail at the limits of theoretical resolution. When you are not at those limits and you have more than enough pixels to play with, the FF will outperform the 7D any day because the lower noise and better dynamic range will be more important. But, when those little birds are so far away that they are just a small part of the image, the 7D is better. If you can sneak up on them so they fill the frame, give me a 1D X (please).
 
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AlanF said:
I post photos on a very picky bird website - if it's not tack sharp or free of noise, it will be rejected by the moderators. The noise level at 6400 on a 1D X would be unacceptable for that site.

Picky, indeed!
 

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Attached is the 100% crop (from a 100-400mm L). And the second one of the kingfisher for not being sharp enough. When I say picky, I mean picky. Your bird pic from the 1D X is far too soft.
 

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My primary interest is wildlife photography and most of the shooting that I do is hand held because I do a lot of hiking with my camera in rough country. I recently acquired a 7D and the EF-L 100-400 to replace my T3i and a Sigma 150-500 lens. I am astounded by the improvement in sharpness that I'm getting. Photos at any ISO are far crisper with my 7D 100-400 package than with the T3i/Sigma combination taken at the same ISO.

My point is that I couldn't imagine that there would be that much improvement over what I'm getting with the 7D in a full frame body. There comes a point, and I believe that I've reached it, where my eyes are simply not good enough to tell the difference.
 
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steven kessel said:
My primary interest is wildlife photography and most of the shooting that I do is hand held because I do a lot of hiking with my camera in rough country. I recently acquired a 7D and the EF-L 100-400 to replace my T3i and a Sigma 150-500 lens. I am astounded by the improvement in sharpness that I'm getting. Photos at any ISO are far crisper with my 7D 100-400 package than with the T3i/Sigma combination taken at the same ISO.

My point is that I couldn't imagine that there would be that much improvement over what I'm getting with the 7D in a full frame body. There comes a point, and I believe that I've reached it, where my eyes are simply not good enough to tell the difference.

Since the T3i and the 7D have the same sensor, the effect you are seing is due to the change in lenses.
The 100-400mm is much sharper than the Sigma 150-500 especialy at the long end.
I think that you will see a similar change if you upgrade to FF. particularly at ISO 800 and above, where noise impacts the sharpness of the photo.
Look at Neuro's Cardinal at ISO 6400, this is what I would expect to see from a 7D at around ISO 1600
 
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So, if the 7D is capable of extrordinary resolution in perfect circumstances, does this also mean that the rumored high MP count FF camera(s) will also require perfect circumstances? Will cries of "soft" be heard when/if the rumored high MP camera hits store shelves in the near/not so near future?

Maybe the excellent high ISO performance of the 1DX is being "field tested" for the "1DXs"...
 
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