I have a question about wedding photography

[unfocused]

Guys, stop drifting away from the bigger picture.

Exactly, this is about your business not about you. You need to make decisions and take actions that will protect your reputation for future clients. They may be unreasonable, they may not be, but the fact is you have to do what you can to minimize the damage they can do to your career. Behave like a professional and take all emotion out of the transaction.

If you can turn them into satisfied customers, great. It may be the only thing you can do is appease them. But that is still better for your business than having angry, dissatisfied customers.

 

[emag]

If you can turn them into satisfied customers, great. It may be the only thing you can do is appease them. But that is still better for your business than having angry, dissatisfied customers.

Exactly. You may never get any referrals from them, but that's still better than the alternative. My hat's off to those of you in the wedding photography business. It would remove much of the pleasure I find in photography. {okay, groom, put your arm around the bride and lean over. Bride - lean backwards and dangle your arm with the bouquet. Gaze at each other lovingly. Lather, rinse, repeat.} I couldn't do it, hence it is with respect and admiration that I remove my hat to those of you who enjoy it, do it for a living and are good enough at it to stand out. Virtual beers for all. No snarkiness is intended. I enjoy working on on my cars and motorcycles and I'm very good at it - I would come to despise it if done for a living.

 

[prestonpalmer]

As everyone has already said. Never give out your RAW files, and I would not edit photos with a client present. Simply explain to them that this is not how things are done in this business.

 

[Iggy]

I tend to agree with the previous posters in thinking that the reason they want the RAW's or to sit with you while you edit is because they are OK with the shots, but don't like the edits you provided. To be honest, if I was the bride and I was facing the prospect of those kinds of edited shots being the only thing I got, I'd be crying.
As a client with a reasonable knowledge of PP, I would always want the RAW files, mostly because setting the WB is a lot easier on a RAW than a JPG, and "correct" WB is a somewhat personal preference, but as a photographer I wouldn't ever want a client to see a completely unprocessed file. I don't even give my husband pictures of the kids until I've done the basic exposure/WB/highlights&shadows adjustments.
A compromise would be to give them copies of full-rez, minimally processed JPG's, which is a pretty standard procedure. That's what I got from our wedding photographers, and it was enough to satisfy my need to have control of the output beyond what I could reasonably expect from the photographers themselves, who obviously don't have time to obsess over each little blemish in hundreds of pictures.

 

[Lloyd]

I am not a professional photographer. I am a partner in a three man law firm. However, as a small business owner we share some things in common. Our reputation is very important and it is for the most part defined by our customers. Therefore, it is always important to recognize when your customer is dissatisfied. I know that it is trite to say that the customer is always right, but there is an element of truth to this old motto. Years ago, those living in large communities were able to sooth their own ego and dismiss customer complaints without as many repercussions. However, we now live in a day and age when any person with a computer is able to post comments, criticisms and praise about our business and, thanks to Google, all these comments are at the finger tips of your customer base.

As a person who has run a small business for over 25 years, I would suggest that you reach out to your clients and set up a time when they can meet with you to discuss any concerns that they may have. Tell them your goal is to have a satisfied customer and that you sense that they are not completely satisfied. You need them to feel free to express their concerns to you rather than have them not want to hurt your feelings and then later plaster negative complaints about your work all over the internet. If you enter into this conversation with an open mind and they are not totally unreasonable, you will likely reach an agreeable compromise. At a minimum, you may learn the real basis for their request and in the best case you will be able to satisfy their needs without a great degree of extra effort.

As a member of a profession known to have inflated egos, I have seen it get the better of many of my brethren. I consider professional photographers to be artists and some artists suffer the same ego issues as my lawyer friends in that they pretend to seek out the opinions of others on their work while in reality they are really searching more for affirmation. Don’t let your ego get in the way of serving the needs of your customer. Always remember who you are working for.

It is interesting the degree to which many of the professional photographers posting in this thread want to keep their RAW files from their clients. As a non-professional photographer, I had never thought of this as an issue. I must admit that when I create a final document I would prefer not to show my client all the drafts that led up to the final document. However, to me what differentiates photographers is not just their eye in taking the underlying photograph, the RAW file, but their abilities in post to take this raw material and turn it into a wonderful finished product. I think a great photographer should be proud of both steps in this process and have no issue in producing the RAW files. Nevertheless, I must imagine that professionals, who have gone down this road before, have good reasons to withhold the RAW files.

I wish the originator of this thread all the best in resolving this issue.

 

[fotox.tv]

I love the quality of this thread.

And I would like to add just an additional point of view.

After having shown my results of the first weddings I receive immediate feed back that I should never show more then 200 pictures of it: some people fell asleep after about this number of pictures.

This goes along with earlier experiences with diapositive slide shows several years ago.

And I also found that the more pictures I showed with different kinds of post processing, the bigger the appetite grew to have that on all pictures.

My recommendation for the next wedding is:
Keep it to 150 - 200 pictures in medium size and give them 5 pictures really done well in big size. And tell them you could do more, but that this takes a lot of time and costs extra money.

My recommendation for your current situation is:
You seem to have unhappy clients. They want different pictures and they are spoilt because you gave them 700 edited pictures already. I would either tell them to edit the best 10 together with them (and take a long time so that they understand what they do to you) or you give them the best 10 in raw (stating that you would never do that again - just in case they might post it in twitter afterwards) and the rest in unedited jpeg. Giving them all raw pictures might just increase their hunger for the other 1000.

I wish you lots of success with your further weddings - the pictures were taken really well.

 

[KurtStevens]

I believe this has been covered but as a 24 y/o wedding photographer I've learned quite a bit shooting over the last 3 years and 15+ weddings so far.

1) Contract. This is going to save your ass. Yes it is terrible you're having to negotiate wedding terms even after the wedding. Make sure to get everything covered in a contract up front. You'll have to figure out how to deal with this wedding client but this should spur you onto getting the most solid contract ever for the next client.

2) Never give out Raws. This is a death sentence. If you're a wedding photographer, the photos are going to be how you make your money. Why would this ever be an option for anyone to give out their hard earned work to someone who doesn't know how to edit, organize, present the photos?

3) Same as number two but with copyright. Keep your copyright! Print reproduction rights and copyrights are two different things. Make sure you know what they are so you can explain them to a client if you give them material to print.

4) Only show your best work. Show your clients the work you feel like represents your talent and creativity. If you're showing them bad work you're doing discredit to yourself and hurting yourself in the long run.

5) Make sure it's clear to your clients in the future that you may shoot 5 kahjillion images, doesn't mean they are going to get 5 kahjillion images. I have this spelled out very clearly in my wedding contract. I over shoot and make sure I deliver top quality images but I also mention that I'd rather spend more time per photo editing and perfecting a smaller amount VS more images with less time per image.

6) To please this client now without having this contract is going to be tough. You'll have to bite the bullet though and have to bend a little bit but be firm in your defense and tell them you're running a business (if you are) and that you need to make a compromise and unfortunately cannot give out all the raws and bend to every little whim they may have. These shots could be better (Personal opinion along with not liking the soft look) but these are by far much much much better than other photographers I've seen that people have taken to court.

How much were you paid for this wedding? Are they getting a fair deal when it comes down to the bottom line? I feel like you've given out way too much for what you may have been paid for. Remember that photography is not cheap and there is a quality of work that goes along with every photographer (hopefully) and that by giving out lots of images for really cheap, its hurting the overall market for other photographers. It's hard to see this in the long run but this doesn't help the trend of, he is only $500 and I get 2500 images I can print at WallyWorld. Does this make sense? I hope I've been a help without being too aggressive. If you want more help I'd be happy to answer some questions for you.

 

[nikkito]

I think your pictures are very good, just the editing is not convincing for my taste. But don't get frustrated, you have talent and like I said, the photos were well composed.
I hope you can solve this ASAP. And remember the customers AREN'T always right

 

[Cptn Rigo]

I really like this one, but the edit mhh... its TOO soft

 

[RLPhoto]

The compositions are fine, but remember that capturing the moment is only half the battle. Now you must make it extraordinary by processing your RAW files to complete your vision.

These are alittle over-processed but you can have them explain what's wrong with the edits and adapt accordingly. The customer is always right until they ask for RAW files.

Good effort! Just work on your workflow a bit more.

 

[split personality]

To the OP:

My personal opinion is that your sample pictures are overdone in post processing. Don't get me wrong, I actually like your artistic style but I understand that it is not for everyone. The bride must have reviewed your previous work before signing the contract. If this has been your style all along, then the client shouldn't complaint. Perhaps it is the parents or their family members who don't share the same artistic taste. Then they bombard the bride with comments such as "Oh my god, you look so fake in the picture. I don't like it, it is too photoshopped!".

Take some time to sit down and discuss with your client to fully understand why aren't they 100% satisfied. Not only is this professional, it is also the right thing to do. Wedding pictures are for life. As a photographer, you already knew that right? Emphasize that you will do whatever it takes, even to the extend of re-editing all the pictures, at no extra cost, until they can go home smiling. With that kind of an attitude, your client will definitely give you a chance and will not hesitate in referring you to others. Wedding photography heavily relies on words of mouth advertising, you must protect your name at all cost.

Now, as far as the RAW files are concerned, my answer is "no way in hell". (You don't have to say those words though)

I am a computer engineer. If you have a problem with the software I supply, then tell me what's wrong and it is my duty to fix it. I would be happy to fix it again and again, until you are 100% satisfied. If you are still concerned, then I will provide additional licenses or support free of charge. In a way, my users are helping me in improving my own product, I owe it to them. But under no circumstances can a user come to me and say "Hey, I don't like this feature you included in the current version, can you give me the source code so I could, errr... make some adjustment to it?"

Not convinced? Try calling Microsoft and tell them that you aren't satisfied with Windows and ask for the source code, good luck!

My source code is as important as your RAW files. This is the work we produce and we don't share them with our clients. Unless your contract specifically allows the bride to keep a copy of the RAW files, it is perhaps the first time I hear such unusual request.

Based on your story and your sample pictures, maybe they wish to have their photos toned down a bit on the post processing. Here's an easy way to confirm:
- Choose 5 to 10 of your best shots and process from scratch.
- Make only subtle changes to the RAWs, like tweak the white balance and exposure.
- Focus on the bride's skin tone to look as natural as possible (as your eyes saw them in real life).
- That's it. Make medium sized prints of both versions (original airbrushed style vs. minimal edit style).
- Lay them on the table and ask which version does the bride prefer.

If we are correct to assume that your photos are over-processed, then the bride would pick the minimal edited prints as a preference. In this case, the answer is easy: Take a few days and redo all the work at no cost. It might suck as you won't be able to go watch The Avengers this weekend, but it's worth the trouble as long as your client is happy.

The reason to bring two versions of the prints is to acknowledge that you might have gone too far in post, without having them saying out loud "Hm... I know that you spend countless hours working on them... but we feel that they don't match our expectations. Hey, it's ok! We are willing to sit and watch the editing process." That would hurt the photographer's pride wouldn't it? Guess what, you now put them in a comfortable position to simply choose a preference. They don't have to say anything, just watch where the finger is pointing to.

(Oh... and I do shoot weddings occasionally. Mainly as a 2nd shooter free of charge for close friends. I do have a photographer side in me.)

Good luck!

 

[aznstuart]

So from the flipside, what do you, as professional photographers do when it is your big day? I am currently single, but have been thinking about what I would do for my own wedding. As a photographer, I think I'd just want to have the RAW files right after the wedding and edit the pictures myself instead of waiting a few weeks to see them. What have you guy/gal photographers done?

 

[briansquibb]

So from the flipside, what do you, as professional photographers do when it is your big day? I am currently single, but have been thinking about what I would do for my own wedding. As a photographer, I think I'd just want to have the RAW files right after the wedding and edit the pictures myself instead of waiting a few weeks to see them. What have you guy/gal photographers done?

I come from a family of photographers - the hardest thing was to get a group shot as everyone wanted to take it

 

[ers811]

So from the flipside, what do you, as professional photographers do when it is your big day? I am currently single, but have been thinking about what I would do for my own wedding. As a photographer, I think I'd just want to have the RAW files right after the wedding and edit the pictures myself instead of waiting a few weeks to see them. What have you guy/gal photographers done?

I'm in the same boat. Getting married soon and nobody seems to want to give me the raws. I totally understand, it's just disappointing knowing I'm probably one of their few clients who (IMO) knows what they're doing.

But I'm so excited, and really love the work of the photographer I found that I've let the issue go. It really doesn't bother me. I know we will love the end product, and frankly I have a few things on my plate right now!

 

[sb]

As a photographer, I think I'd just want to have the RAW files right after the wedding and edit the pictures myself instead of waiting a few weeks to see them. What have you guy/gal photographers done?

No freakin' way I have enough editing work to do without worrying about my own wedding pictures. We just found a photographer who is similar enough to us and let her do all the work. Plus you may find out (like I did) that you don't care about seeing yourself in pictures anyway. I've looked at my wedding pics exactly once. Maybe I'll look at them again in 40 years

But back to the point...

Lots of good advice has been given already, so I'll be brief:

You fudged up with the processing, so now your best course of action would be to actually give them the RAWs and learn from this. However I would still not give them absolute RAWs, just do slight contrast + sharpening LR preset on all of them and give them that. They will still show those pictures to people and you don't want RAW shots with your name on it. Moving forward though, never give RAWs. Processing is half of the work, so I wouldn't want to give unprocessed files more than I'd want to buy a house with no roof. Just take it easy with photoshop... too many people go for the over-processed "instagram" look, and it just doesn't good.

As a side note, I think you mentioned you gave them different versions of same pics (color/black and white etc). This cheapens the product I think. A picture either calls for B&W processing or it doesn't. Don't give more than 1 version of any picture. You should be deciding on what your product looks like, not the customer.

 

[Orangutan]

the bride has TERRIBLE agne

1. How would the bride feel if she saw the above post? If you wanted to post an example it should have masked out her distinguishing features. She is not one your models, she's an "ordinary" person who hired you to photograph her wedding. I suggest you delete the above post before the All-Knowing Internet delivers it to her.

2. Depending on where you live, photography like this may be considered work-for-hire, in which case the clients may already own the raw's regardless of the advice you're getting here. This is why you need a contract to spell out ownership of the raw's, deliverables, etc. In the absence of a contract, I strongly suggest you consult a lawyer rather than rely on the advice of a bunch of photographers who are not lawyers.

3. There are tricks to minimize acne without affecting the entire scene. (it wouldn't surprise me if Nik had a filter for that -- just kidding)

4. Your composition is very nice, I agree with other posters that the softness doesn't suit my taste, at least not for the bulk of the photos. I think this would be an interesting effect for the "creative edits" folder.

 

[unfocused]

I hope you have a second career in mind because posting that picture of your customer was one of the most boneheaded things I've ever seen. That was a customer you just humiliated.

 

[nitsujwalker]

interesting thread... But you should really remove that before/after photo before your client sees it...

 

[Hillsilly]

I agree with the above three posts.

Anyway....

Some photographers retain the negatives / computer files so that they can earn future income from print sales. Often the prices charged are over the top. Your clients might just be concerned about this. Plus, who thinks they'll be able to track down their wedding photographer in ten years' time?

Personally, I don't see anything wrong with requesting the RAW files. When I chose a wedding photographer, I specifically chose one that would give me all of the negatives after printing off the photos that we selected. If I was searching for a wedding photographer today, I'd be very suspicious of a photographer that didn't include the RAW files in their package.

 

[Janco]

..... I normally dont soften my images THAT much, the problem, if you will - is that the bride
has TERRIBLE agne, her skin is like a pizza.. im not kidding..
so my fiance, who works for Redken as a make up and hair artist, did the make-up and Hair for the wedding, what she did was that she airbrushed her face - with a make-up Airbrush. .. to get rid of the agne.. i just added a little extra.. I would love to share this before and after picture with you guys actually:

Now this is probably the rudest thing I've ever read. I don't know if it's rude from me when I hope she sues you? Let's hope her (according to you) pizza gets better soon. I still don't believe this. I don't even care if it's maybe a shot for friends or something, it's just a complete lack of respect. I'm sorry I had to write this...