Industry News: Nikon Announces Development of Next Generation Full-Frame Mirrorless Camera and Nikko

[TAF]

Re: Industry News: Nikon Announces Development of Next Generation Full-Frame Mirrorless Camera and N

Nikon is stringing this out as long as possible, but this is a big day nonetheless:

https://nikonrumors.com/2018/07/25/official-press-release-nikons-develops-the-next-generation-full-frame-mirrorless-camera.aspx/

It’s full frame.

It’s a thinner than FX mount.

FX lenses are compatible with an adaptor.

Those are not trivial pieces of news. We’ve been waiting for that sort of clear tell for Canon for years here.

- A

Outstanding news! Now Canon can finally release their FF-ML with EF mount, and their advertising can be:

"Canon, where you don't need a kludgee adapter to use your existing lenses"

 

[melgross]

Re: Industry News: Nikon Announces Development of Next Generation Full-Frame Mirrorless Camera and N

it does not matter if/how film vs. digital technically compares to DSLR vs. mirrorfree ... it is the market reaction that counts. If people get the same functionality in a smaller and/or more convenient and/or cheaper package, the old sh*t will die. Inevitably .

Eventually, yes. But it’s not just cheaper, smaller and lighter with the same functionality. It’s got to be better, more ergonomic, more convenient, higher quality IQ, etc.

My third sentence is what doomed film. It was said that size and weight would enter into it, but it never did. The same thing is true here. For every person who will buy an ILCM camera because it’s smaller and lighter, there will be someone who won’t want a smaller, lighter camera. I’m one of those.

I won’t buy a mirrorless unless I find something that performs better, or has higher IQ. If they have a mirrorless with the same mount, I’d be more likely to buy that, rather than a thinner body with an adapter. I have some great lenses, and I’m not giving them up. Adapters can be nice, but with four more mating surfaces (because the flanges themselves need to be attached to the body of the adapter) that have to be solid, parallel and precise. As someone who has shops with lathes and milling machines, I know firsthand what more surfaces can do to precision, and, as they say, it ain’t pretty.

 

[Mikehit]

Re: Industry News: Nikon Announces Development of Next Generation Full-Frame Mirrorless Camera and N

6. phase out crop DSLRs
7. phase out FF DSLRs

If people are still buying their crop and FF DSLRs, do you believe Nikon (or Canon) would phase them out? That would be...stupid.

"IF". They won't. The also did not buy many more 1D film cameras after 2010.

Bad example. Film vs digital doesn’t compare well to DSLR vs Mirrorless. There’s little, if any, performance gain in image quality with a mirrorless camera. Neither is there any real economic advantages.
Film was phased out because digital cameras showed advantages, first mostly in processing speed, then in economics, and only the last 5-10 years in image quality. And I’m still keeping my 1V for black & white photography. Yes, it’s big and heavy, and not thin. But in many ways better than any more modern camera I’ve owned.

Fullstop has not been known for the success of his analogies. I can't think of a single one that has passed scrutiny and he usually ends up admitting it was a bad example.

 

[Mikehit]

Re: Industry News: Nikon Announces Development of Next Generation Full-Frame Mirrorless Camera and N

it does not matter if/how film vs. digital technically compares to DSLR vs. mirrorfree ... it is the market reaction that counts. If people get the same functionality in a smaller and/or more convenient and/or cheaper package, the old sh*t will die. Inevitably .

MILCs have been available for over a decade. FF MILCs have been available for 5 years. MILCs are still not outselling DSLRs.

up to now CaNikon sold only FF mirrorslappers (70% of market). Give it another 2 years and we'll talk again. ;D

And in all that time, new people entering the camera market, the people with no vested interest in any system have not been convinced of the superiority of mirrorless. Why not?

 

[Loswr]

Re: Industry News: Nikon Announces Development of Next Generation Full-Frame Mirrorless Camera and N

as long as rebel stuff is cheaper than EOS M stuff, no wonder.

As long as across multiple threads, you keep stressing that one of the reasons mirrorless will overtake DSLRs is their being, to quote you exactly, "LESS EXPENSIVE," it's no wonder you lack credibility.

 

[fullstop]

Re: Industry News: Nikon Announces Development of Next Generation Full-Frame Mirrorless Camera and N

its not my credibility. Which i dont care about anyways, at all. At least not here in a forum of Canon fanbois.

It is a Canon and industry problem. Stupid Canon honestly thought, they could sell incredibly underspecced EOS M at 899. Body only. LOL. We, the customers taught them otherwise. Stupid Sony believes, lots of people will buy their GMaster bricks at 3k a pop. LOL. We, the customer will teach them, what the market is.

Canon EOS M ... now? After the initrial epic fail and firesale @ 299 ... a success. Why? Simple: because it offers very compact, decent IQ, decent functionality, decent build quality, decent ergonomics cameras and lenses at decent, affordable prices.

If Nikon and Canon manage the same for FF mirrorless, it wil be a runaway success. If not, then not. Sony is astuck at 15% market share and Fuji ist stuck at less than 10%, because ... their [LENS] prices are .. way too high for what they are. Simple, really simple. Customers are not stupid. Companies are, sometimes.

 

[Loswr]

Re: Industry News: Nikon Announces Development of Next Generation Full-Frame Mirrorless Camera and N

The EOS M quickly rose to be the #2 best-selling domestic MILC at full price, outselling every other MILC except a two-gen-old heavily discounted Sony NEX, in the largest global market for mirrorless. 'Stupid Canon' made seriously smart money on that model.

But we know that you've never been one to let facts influence your opinions.

 

[fullstop]

Re: Industry News: Nikon Announces Development of Next Generation Full-Frame Mirrorless Camera and N

fact: Canon EOS M at 899 flopped. Massively. Globally. They had to sell the thing at 299.
No amount of "smoke but no mirrors" can obfuscate that fact.

I am really hoping for an EOS M equivalent FF Canon MILC system. As ONE option. Of course there will and can be more expensive and much LARGER options too, for those who prefer things Texas-size and love their bank accounts raided by Canon. No problem. As long as I get my compact, decent and affordable FF MILC system with Canon UI. It will carry me over the next 8+ years, until computational imaging with smartphone-sized devices rulez.

 

[Loswr]

Re: Industry News: Nikon Announces Development of Next Generation Full-Frame Mirrorless Camera and N

In the other thread, I introduced you to my friend, Facts. Maybe one day you'll also get to meet his support staff, Data. Seems you've never met them, either.

Oh, and in my opinion, the $999 compact FF MILC a fantasy. Or maybe it'll come out in 8+ years.

 

[sdz]

Re: Industry News: Nikon Announces Development of Next Generation Full-Frame Mirrorless Camera and N

Nikon announces vaporware!

No!

Yes!

Eventually, Nikon will announce a camera, a few lenses and an adapter. But these are mist today. Nikon will eventually ship these items. Nonetheless, Nikon has promised us very little with their announcement, and nothing more than what we already knew.

Please, just stop it! All camera companies do a bit of preannouncement. We know that Nikon will make an official announcement in about a month, of real products. Vaporware was coined a long time ago when Grid came out with a tablet using their own OS. Microsoft announced that people should wait until theirs, which was in development, came out. Microsoft had no tablet OS in development at the time, and it was labeled as vaporware. Grid failed as a result of people holding back.

That’s not the case here.

Vaporware refers to every piece of hardware or software that has been announced or has as a rumor supported by company hints that does not yet exist as a shipping product.

Vaporware is marketing blather, as is Nikon's announcement.

So, I'll not stop. Why should I? This announcement was mere BS masquerading as information.

No, that’s not what it means. So a phone manufacturer mentioning that they will come out with new phones are announcing vaporware? That’s ridiculous!

Vaporware, if you understood it, means a product that’s announced, in same fashion, by a company that doesn’t follow throug with a product, or does, years later.

So, last year, when Canon did that interview about mirrorless, and they said that, yes, they were working on FF frame mirrorless, it was vaporware? So, every company that talks about future products are talking about vaporware?

That makes no sense. Your definition is odd, to say the least.

My definition is fine. It works, It makes sense.

 

[sdz]

Re: Industry News: Nikon Announces Development of Next Generation Full-Frame Mirrorless Camera and N

Nikon announces vaporware!

No!

Yes!

Eventually, Nikon will announce a camera, a few lenses and an adapter. But these are mist today. Nikon will eventually ship these items. Nonetheless, Nikon has promised us very little with their announcement, and nothing more than what we already knew.

Please, just stop it! All camera companies do a bit of preannouncement. We know that Nikon will make an official announcement in about a month, of real products. Vaporware was coined a long time ago when Grid came out with a tablet using their own OS. Microsoft announced that people should wait until theirs, which was in development, came out. Microsoft had no tablet OS in development at the time, and it was labeled as vaporware. Grid failed as a result of people holding back.

That’s not the case here.

Vaporware refers to every piece of hardware or software that has been announced or has as a rumor supported by company hints that does not yet exist as a shipping product.

Vaporware is marketing blather, as is Nikon's announcement.

So, I'll not stop. Why should I? This announcement was mere BS masquerading as information.

Maybe you should stop because you are misusing the term vaporware. An uninformative news release does not make the product vaporware. Vaporware refers to a product that is announced as under active development when it is not. The Nikon mirrorless has been in active development for quite a while and at this point is almost certainly in production. Something that is in production is not vaporware.

Sorry, but announcing nothing specific and lacking an actual announcement date makes this vaporware, as I stated. I am not misusing the term. The term was commonly used to refer to announced product that did not ship after the announcement. Nikon's mirrorless FF camera will cease to be vaporware when it ships.

I do not believe the world is well served by marketing BS.

It’s certainly not served by your posting BS.

What's odd here is your taking a mildly sarcastic post of mine and turning it into an event.

 

[Loswr]

Re: Industry News: Nikon Announces Development of Next Generation Full-Frame Mirrorless Camera and N

Let's see what Grand Moff Tarkin has to say regarding the definition of vaporware...

 

[Don Haines]

Re: Industry News: Nikon Announces Development of Next Generation Full-Frame Mirrorless Camera and N

Let's see what Grand Moff Tarkin has to say regarding the definition of vaporware...

 

[Mt Spokane Photography]

Re: Industry News: Nikon Announces Development of Next Generation Full-Frame Mirrorless Camera and N

as long as rebel stuff is cheaper than EOS M stuff, no wonder.

It always happens, new tech that costs less to make, sells for a higher price. Once we see some real competition, prices will drop, until then, a Rebel is a better buy.

 

[3kramd5]

Re: Industry News: Nikon Announces Development of Next Generation Full-Frame Mirrorless Camera and N

Adapters can be nice, but with four more mating surfaces (because the flanges themselves need to be attached to the body of the adapter) that have to be solid, parallel and precise.

It doesn’t need to be four. You could make the tube a unibody and have only two. Alternately you could ship on assembly. Alternately you could just take the needed tolerances for two faying surfaces and cut them in half. Either way, I’ve not seen any significant problems from poor parallelism tolerance; it’s an easy configuration.

 

[takesome1]

Re: Industry News: Nikon Announces Development of Next Generation Full-Frame Mirrorless Camera and N

its not my credibility. Which i dont care about anyways, at all. At least not here in a forum of Canon fanbois.

It is a Canon and industry problem. Stupid Canon honestly thought, they could sell incredibly underspecced EOS M at 899. Body only. LOL. We, the customers taught them otherwise. Stupid Sony believes, lots of people will buy their GMaster bricks at 3k a pop. LOL. We, the customer will teach them, what the market is.

Canon EOS M ... now? After the initrial epic fail and firesale @ 299 ... a success. Why? Simple: because it offers very compact, decent IQ, decent functionality, decent build quality, decent ergonomics cameras and lenses at decent, affordable prices.

If Nikon and Canon manage the same for FF mirrorless, it wil be a runaway success. If not, then not. Sony is astuck at 15% market share and Fuji ist stuck at less than 10%, because ... their [LENS] prices are .. way too high for what they are. Simple, really simple. Customers are not stupid. Companies are, sometimes.

The EOS M cost so much less to make than the dSLR rebels that Canon made a ton of money at $299.

 

[Loswr]

Re: Industry News: Nikon Announces Development of Next Generation Full-Frame Mirrorless Camera and N

Either way, I’ve not seen any significant problems from poor parallelism tolerance; it’s an easy configuration.

Perhaps you haven't, but have you actually looked? Uncle Rog has, and his conclusion was:

[quote author=Roger Cicala @ lensrentals.com]
I won’t bore you with another 20 graphs that look pretty much like these. We tried Leica to NEX and Leica to Micro 4/3 adapters, Canon to NEX, etc. We tried different lenses on one adapter. It didn’t really matter. None of them would be acceptable for testing. Not one.

...

In the examples above, though, center resolution is pretty much unchanged, it’s only when you get away from center that you start to see issues. So someone shooting portraits and centered subjects is unlikely to notice an issue. A landscape photographer, though, would likely see some problems along the edges of the image.

Putting a great lens on your camera via an adapter might still be better than an average native-mount lens. On the other hand, that great lens certainly wouldn’t be as good as it would be on its native-mount camera.
[/quote]

Read the article here:
https://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2013/09/there-is-no-free-lunch-episode-763-lens-adapters/


AvTvM, I'd advise against clicking that link...you'll find Data on the other side of it, and I know that's anathema to you. You just go on ignoring facts and believing that an adapter is the best solution for a Canon FF MILC, that it won't cause any optical problems at all. Enjoy your free lunch. :

 

[BillB]

Re: Industry News: Nikon Announces Development of Next Generation Full-Frame Mirrorless Camera and N

its not my credibility. Which i dont care about anyways, at all. At least not here in a forum of Canon fanbois.

It is a Canon and industry problem. Stupid Canon honestly thought, they could sell incredibly underspecced EOS M at 899. Body only. LOL. We, the customers taught them otherwise. Stupid Sony believes, lots of people will buy their GMaster bricks at 3k a pop. LOL. We, the customer will teach them, what the market is.

Canon EOS M ... now? After the initrial epic fail and firesale @ 299 ... a success. Why? Simple: because it offers very compact, decent IQ, decent functionality, decent build quality, decent ergonomics cameras and lenses at decent, affordable prices.

If Nikon and Canon manage the same for FF mirrorless, it wil be a runaway success. If not, then not. Sony is astuck at 15% market share and Fuji ist stuck at less than 10%, because ... their [LENS] prices are .. way too high for what they are. Simple, really simple. Customers are not stupid. Companies are, sometimes.

The currency exchange rate may have contiributed to the "stupid" pricing decisions of that period. There were similar problems with lens prices at the time.

 

[3kramd5]

Re: Industry News: Nikon Announces Development of Next Generation Full-Frame Mirrorless Camera and N

Either way, I’ve not seen any significant problems from poor parallelism tolerance; it’s an easy configuration.

Perhaps you haven't, but have you actually looked? Uncle Rog has, and his conclusion was:

[quote author=Roger Cicala @ lensrentals.com]
I won’t bore you with another 20 graphs that look pretty much like these. We tried Leica to NEX and Leica to Micro 4/3 adapters, Canon to NEX, etc. We tried different lenses on one adapter. It didn’t really matter. None of them would be acceptable for testing. Not one.

...

In the examples above, though, center resolution is pretty much unchanged, it’s only when you get away from center that you start to see issues. So someone shooting portraits and centered subjects is unlikely to notice an issue. A landscape photographer, though, would likely see some problems along the edges of the image.

Putting a great lens on your camera via an adapter might still be better than an average native-mount lens. On the other hand, that great lens certainly wouldn’t be as good as it would be on its native-mount camera.

Read the article here:
https://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2013/09/there-is-no-free-lunch-episode-763-lens-adapters/


AvTvM, I'd advise against clicking that link...you'll find Data on the other side of it, and I know that's anathema to you. You just go on ignoring facts and believing that an adapter is the best solution for a Canon FF MILC, that it won't cause any optical problems at all. Enjoy your free lunch. :
[/quote]

To be clear, I didn’t see any significant problems - in my own use. I did not compare adapted to non-adapted, nor collect laboratory data, much less set up test equipment using one. Rather I shot tens of thousands of images with adapted glass and a sole sample adapter, with acceptable results.

Similarly I’ve shot tens of thousands of images with what some lab testing would consider poor dynamic range, also with acceptable results.

I obviously accept that mounting a lens off-parallel will manifest in image degradation (increasing as the angle between grows), and maybe a large sample of adapters from a third party, poorly funded operation demonstrates a trend... about that poorly funded operation. But if nikon can make a camera and lens combination, I have confidence they can make a camera, lens, and adapter combination. Canon too. Sure it adds tolerance contributions, but it’s simple geometry, and the OEM is likely to do it well since they’d have nobody to point fingers at. 2-4 more interfaces isn’t all that many in the context of a camera and lens combination, where you may have 17 elements in the lens alone, the mount to lens, mount to body, body to sensor assembly, sensor assembly to semiconductor, etc.

 

[BillB]

Re: Industry News: Nikon Announces Development of Next Generation Full-Frame Mirrorless Camera and N

its not my credibility. Which i dont care about anyways, at all. At least not here in a forum of Canon fanbois.

It is a Canon and industry problem. Stupid Canon honestly thought, they could sell incredibly underspecced EOS M at 899. Body only. LOL. We, the customers taught them otherwise. Stupid Sony believes, lots of people will buy their GMaster bricks at 3k a pop. LOL. We, the customer will teach them, what the market is.

Canon EOS M ... now? After the initrial epic fail and firesale @ 299 ... a success. Why? Simple: because it offers very compact, decent IQ, decent functionality, decent build quality, decent ergonomics cameras and lenses at decent, affordable prices.

If Nikon and Canon manage the same for FF mirrorless, it wil be a runaway success. If not, then not. Sony is astuck at 15% market share and Fuji ist stuck at less than 10%, because ... their [LENS] prices are .. way too high for what they are. Simple, really simple. Customers are not stupid. Companies are, sometimes.

The EOS M cost so much less to make than the dSLR rebels that Canon made a ton of money at $299.

I doubt that production costs were that big a part of the original M's sales price. Canon's selling the M in the North American market seems to have been an afterthought. The real action was in Asia. The currency exchange rate was part of what was going on.