Is Canon bringing out their cameras in the wrong order?

It seems that a lot of people here on the forum (my self included) feels as if canon has been, deliberately nerfing there own cameras recently.

I don´t know if it is the case or not, but i get where the feeling is coming from. When you are spending thousends of dollars on a new camera, you want to feel as though canon is giving you the best possible product they can, at a given time and price point. If not, you are likely to suffer from buyers remorse or you might not buy at all. Perhaps you have already invested a lot of money in to glass, so you are reluctant to switch brands and thus feel canon is forcing your hand. The end result is alienation.

I think the reason people get so exited about cameras like the Nikon D810 or the Sony A7r II is that those cameras feel like the pinnacle of what Nikon and sony could produce. They don't feel compromised.

Well to the point. I think a lot of this stems from, the order in witch canon puts out there products. Their high end cameras seem to be updated on a generational basis, rather then incrementally. It goes something like 1D, 5D, 6D, 7D each coming out roughly 6 mouthes apart. 5DsR and 1Dc being the exceptions to the rule, i think?

I would argue that canon is better off reversing the order, and here is why.

When canon puts out there highest end camera first, technology moves forward in the mean time, until the release of there next model on step down the camera latter. This narrows the technological gab between models.
An example of this, could be the 5d mark III sensor vs. the 6D sensor. Here the 6D sensor was in many ways better then the one found in the 5D mark III. This is somewhat at odds with the 5D sitting higher on the camera latter, and being about 50% more expensive.
Had the releas of the 2 cameras been reversed, the more expensive camera would have been the one with the best sensor. It would have been ahed R&D wise by something like 6 months.
One way to counter this discrepancy however is to nerf your lower end cameras. This way it becomes harder for your newer and cheeper cameras to compete with your older and more expensive cameras.

Now whether canon is nerfing cameras or not, is hard to say. It would seem like a bad business plan to me. Your competing brands are not going to nerf there cameras, in order not to compete with you. Quite the opposite.
However canon is in such a dominating position on the camera market, that it might actually be a viable plan for them, if only in the short term.

Wether nerfing is going on or not. I would still argue that a reversed order of high end camera updates would be better for canon. It would mean, that the most expensive and high end camera would always be the camera with the newest tech. Thus widening the tech gab between models to better reflect the differences in price.

A reversal of order might be a hard maneuver to pull of now though :)
 
Canon's continued success would rather suggest you're wrong. Also with regard to the 6D's sensor being better than the 5DIII, who's to say ? Those who own one and post on Internet forums ? Or those that own both but base their opinion on 100% views of ultra high ISO and don't scale the images ? I owned a 6D, and although it has a thoroughly capable sensor I don't think it's actually better than the 5DIII's for many applications.
 
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Canon's continued success would rather suggest you're wrong

Maybe, or maybe they would have had even more success with the approche I suggested.

I think my argument, that the most expensive and high end camera should also be the camera with the newest tech, is pretty sound. It would be like this with a reversed order of release.

You could however also argue, that i makes more sense for canon engineers to research new tech with the goal of putting it in to the most high end camera instead of the newest camera. After all new tech is inherently expensive and therefore, it makes the most sense to implement it in, the highest end products. The tech can then trickle down as it becomes cheeper.

If I hat to guess. I would think that the current order of releases is down to how canon entered the digital market. It makes sense that your most top line camera would be the first to market and your lineup would grow from there.

Also with regard to the 6D's sensor being better than the 5DIII, who's to say ? Those who own one and post on Internet forums ?

I guess year. It is not like I have conducted a thorough scientific test. It just seems like the consensus on the internet. I am completely open to being wrong abut the sensors.
 
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You release a camera, people who need a camera buy it. Now you release a more expensive camera and your market is smaller since some people have already bought your previous camera and are not going to upgrade.

You are always better off to release the more expensive camera first. The people who can not afford it will wait for the next cheaper camera.

The same happens with price, first you sell it a high price, after everybody who can afford it or needs it badly buys it, you lower the price a bit. This triggers next wave of buyers. You continue with this strategy until you reach the lowest price you are willing to sell at. This is a very basic form of maximizing profit. Canon is very good at that.
 
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Sporgon said:
Canon's continued success would rather suggest you're wrong. Also with regard to the 6D's sensor being better than the 5DIII, who's to say ? Those who own one and post on Internet forums ? Or those that own both but base their opinion on 100% views of ultra high ISO and don't scale the images ? I owned a 6D, and although it has a thoroughly capable sensor I don't think it's actually better than the 5DIII's for many applications.

Were all different. I owned both the 5DMKIII and the 6D and realised most of the time I took out the 6D because of the wi-fi and GPS. I felt the 6D also was better at focusing in low light. Contra to that the 5D MKIII had far better AF and metering than the 6D overall. I felt IQ wise you couldn't tell the difference between the two cameras so the 6D was not crippled in the most important area.
 
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Canon releases their best camera of each generation first to push people to buy the most expensive camera so that they cant compare it to the next generation camera that is a step down. If they release their worst camera 1st then it will have features left out of it that will become standard by the time they get to their higher end model. If the higher end model is released first with lets say 60fps 4k with DPAF and no other canon DSLR has 4k then it makes it seem like it is more worth the money. If the 6D mk2 comes out in lets say June 2017 and it has 30fps 4k and a 25MP sensor and is 1500.00 cheaper than the 5d mk4....then people will have a lot less reason to by the 5D mk4 or to have waited on it. Since the 5D mk4 came out so long before the 6D mk2 most of the people who planned on buying that camera and spending that much money have already made their order instead of seeing what the 6D mk2 had to offer and seeing that it meets there needs enough and thus spending less money on a cheaper camera. If canon had released the 6d mk2 in may 2016 instead of the 1Dx mk2 there would be zero chance of 4k being in it and maybe not even DPAF. The longer they wait to release lower end cameras the more features it will have in it from higher end models bc they feel like they arent losing money bc people have already had the opportunity to buy the more expensive camera. This is also why canon keeps their release dates so secret until the last minute. They want you to buy now.
 
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Frederik_Bo said:
I think my argument, that the most expensive and high end camera should also be the camera with the newest tech, is pretty sound. It would be like this with a reversed order of release.

Newest tech may not be also the most reliable one you trust blindly. There could be good reasons to test the newest technology in more consumer-oriented models to test reliability over time, and find and fix any remaining issues before adopting the same technologies in the higher end models - were lack of reliability will put a company in very bad light, risking to lose the high-end customers.

IMHO consumer electronics hid this practice to many eyes - because they target exactly the consumer market - but outside the consumer market you won't see often "newest" technology adopted first - unless absolutely needed, or if you can test yourself thoroughly for enough time-, because the costs of unreliable equipment for business could be very high.
 
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Frederik_Bo said:
Canon's continued success would rather suggest you're wrong

I think my argument, that the most expensive and high end camera should also be the camera with the newest tech, is pretty sound. It would be like this with a reversed order of release.

I think that your idea is why Nikon is failing. Really, Put out a flagship camera and do not update to any newer technology in cameras for five years until another flagship is released?

Technology should be implemented when its ready, and not wait for another release of a flagship body, and then another 3 years after that.

Technology in cameras is already at least two years out of date by the time a new camera hits the market. You want to delay by another 5 years?
 
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Respectfully, if you have "buyer's remorse" after buying an 80D, or the higher priced 5DIV, you did not understand what you were buying and/or you simply don't get out and take pictures enough.

I have no personal experience with the 1DX II, but I imagine the same applies.
 
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Sporgon said:
Also with regard to the 6D's sensor being better than the 5DIII, who's to say ?

Every single test and comparison I know of - and that's a lot - confirms this. Please show us a test or review that says otherwise...

In addition my own use of the two leaves me in no doubt whatsoever. But the above is of course more convincing than a single user experience.
 
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Maiaibing said:
Sporgon said:
Also with regard to the 6D's sensor being better than the 5DIII, who's to say ?

Every single test and comparison I know of - and that's a lot - confirms this. Please show us a test or review that says otherwise...

In addition my own use of the two leaves me in no doubt whatsoever. But the above is of course more convincing than a single user experience.

I have the 6D.. I've looked at the comparisons... there is a difference, but for 99% of images it makes no difference. For astrophotography it makes a small difference, much more important for that though is keeping the sensor cool.
 
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I never imagined I would struggle choosing between the 1DX2 and 5D4 but I did. Now I'm waiting to see what the 6D2 will have and probably go for it over the 5D4 as my second camera. My present 6D for non-action shots might have served me better if it had AF at F8.

Sadly, the future doesn't seem to offer a "best" camera any more. It'll be best for what application. That bugs me for one reason primarily, which is, the 1D line has features that you love and can't get elsewhere and yet it's handicapped relative to resolution. Surely, they could have boosted the cost marginally and included an optional mode trading-off FPS for resolution.

Jack
 
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Jack Douglas said:
I never imagined I would struggle choosing between the 1DX2 and 5D4 but I did. Now I'm waiting to see what the 6D2 will have and probably go for it over the 5D4 as my second camera. My present 6D for non-action shots might have served me better if it had AF at F8.

Sadly, the future doesn't seem to offer a "best" camera any more. It'll be best for what application. That bugs me for one reason primarily, which is, the 1D line has features that you love and can't get elsewhere and yet it's handicapped relative to resolution. Surely, they could have boosted the cost marginally and included an optional mode trading-off FPS for resolution.

Jack

The market for a 1D series is Sports photographers, the camera has plenty of resolution and has features directly geared to sports. I've seen rumors that they might come out with a high resolution version, but I expect a 5DS R follow on will be the high resolution body. DPAF with on sensor A-D converter and 5D MK IV features would be enough of a step up to justify the ~$200 higher price it will have. The lower price as opposed to a 1DS type will mean high enough sales to make a profit.
 
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Based on facts, newer and better technologies will always continue be churned out by Canon, so IMO whether Canon releases new cameras in the current order or the reversed one is not a major factor in the grand scheme of things.

In the current order (1D->5D,X0D->6D,Rebels->7D), you can witnessed that current and new tech and features sometimes trickle down the vine (iTR AF, new sensor fab), but can also be said the other way where new tech are tested on lower tier bodies for reliability and stability before being introduced to higher tier bodies (such as DPAF, anti-flicker shooting, new mirror assembly, WiFi/GPS/BT).

Furthermore, you have to remember that the upgrading is a cycle, so in a sense, if the 7D3 released in 2018 get awesome new features, the IDX3 in 2020 will very likely adapt those features and introduced newer tech advances also, with those tech flowing down to the other XD bodies down the line in a few years. Rinse and repeat.

Now for my argument against your reversal of new bodies releases, it is the same as kphoto as below:
kphoto99 said:
You release a camera, people who need a camera buy it. Now you release a more expensive camera and your market is smaller since some people have already bought your previous camera and are not going to upgrade.

You are always better off to release the more expensive camera first. The people who can not afford it will wait for the next cheaper camera.

The same happens with price, first you sell it a high price, after everybody who can afford it or needs it badly buys it, you lower the price a bit. This triggers next wave of buyers. You continue with this strategy until you reach the lowest price you are willing to sell at. This is a very basic form of maximizing profit. Canon is very good at that.
...it just make more sense as a profit-making company.

Another argument is that almost all camera manufacturers are actually using the current upgrade cycle where higher end cameras are released before releasing lower tier cameras. e.g.
Nikon (D4S->D810->D750->D7200,D5500)
Fujifilm (X-T1->XT10)(X-Pro1->X-E1->X-M1->X-A1)
Olympus (EP series->EPL series->EPM series)
....with the same reason as above, profitability and also market segmentation.

Sony is the odd one out, throwing everything they got to the wall once in a while just to see what sticks, and they don't have a concrete idea of their camera system yet.
 
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Canon is a very conservative company.

"Entry level" camera models get features before the 1D series cameras, and even the touch screen functionality on the 1DXII is limited compared to the consumer line cameras.

Canon was bitten badly at least once with "new and improved" features added to the 1D series camera that did not work out so well- the 1DIII AF issue. I would suspect that some of the tech introduced below the 1D line is a sort of beta test to make sure it works well before bringing a variation up into the 1D line.

Many want more touch screen functionality in the 1DXII, so maybe it will be there via a firmware update or the III.
 
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Jack Douglas said:
I never imagined I would struggle choosing between the 1DX2 and 5D4 but I did.

I did as well. Ultimately I decided on the 5D4 partly due to resolution - I did not wish to give up MP, although I would have been fine with breaking even or getting a small bump to 24...but the bigger reason was the noise level. It's bad enough to stand out with a big DSLR and large lens but even worse when it goes "CLACKCLACKCLACKCLACK" like a machine gun. I honestly loved the 1DX II when I finally got to try it out - it was hard to put down - but I knew the noise it made would be overkill for a lot of environments I shoot in. I may have gone for it anyway if I shot action more regularly, but it's only an occasional adventure for me, so I found the 5D4 to be the better all-around camera, and chose to invest in the grip too. Having used the 5D4 at a couple of ice skating events already, I can't say I regret the decision, although I do wish the buffer were bigger (I hit the limit on at least 2 or 3 occasions). Coming from the 7D2, I noticed pretty quickly. I like having the extra resolution to work with, though - it's made a bigger difference than I thought it would. The downside of course is needing a faster SS/higher ISO to fully stop the action.
 
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Act444 said:
Jack Douglas said:
I never imagined I would struggle choosing between the 1DX2 and 5D4 but I did.

I did as well. Ultimately I decided on the 5D4 partly due to resolution - I did not wish to give up MP, although I would have been fine with breaking even or getting a small bump to 24...but the bigger reason was the noise level......

That describes my situation exactly too. Needing to retire an overworked 5DIII, I also went for the 5D4 which has proved just great, truly valuing the silent shutter, the higher res and shadow noise gains. But I traveled the compromise route and got a low mileage 1DX as well, instead of a new 1DXII. This has turned out to be a perfect buddy to the 7DII for commissioned sports work, which is about 15% of my work. So the 5D4, 7DII & 1DX have proved a choice to die for.

It's one thing to be interested and informed, but I don't get greatly fussed over the sequence that Canon rolls out its updates. It's a bit like "pixel-peeping" the industry. There's no way to influence the rollout of new features, so why put energy into worrying about it? Just look at your current needs, match that with a sensible budget (for you) and and get on with he real business of taking great images for yourself or your clients.

After the gripped 5D4, another big spend on a 1DXII would have been a stretch, but the used 1DX option gave the right balance on the finance spectrum. FWIW I recently retired a very high mileage 1D4, for no other reason than that camera's AF performance while very good, had fallen well behind newer AF tech. Overall, that 1D4 was my favourite camera of all time. It was just unbustable and still working hard in the hands of a surf photographer.

-pw
 
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Canon is the global leader in DSLR sales by a large margin, and by recent reports their lead is growing. They know what they are doing as far as releasing cameras.

Don't look at the 1/5/6/7 cameras as competing with each other, they aren't. Each one represents a tool for a specific job. I own the 1DxII, 5D4, and 7DII and I use each for a specific purpose. Unless you are shooting sports, wildlife, or doing fast paced journalism the 1D isn't your camera. This isn't a matter of buying a Toyota vs a Lexus, it's a matter of buying a Formula One car for a daily driver. As a portrait/wedding camera the 1D is markedly worse than the 5D (lower resolution, loud shutter, heavier body). The 5D is what a portrait/wedding shooter should be buying.

Look at it this way- Canon expects most people to stay in the series the have. Most 1D users aren't considering the 5D (at least not as a replacement) and most 5D users aren't looking to buy the 1D. They aren't trim levels of the same model, they are completely different models. The 6D serves as a gateway to the 5D for people who want to use full frame bodies but can't justify the cost and as a way for Canon to get sales where it otherwise wouldn't.

If you are looking at rapid refreshes of cameras so that the "highest end" model always has the bells and whistles you should look a the rebels and XXDs. They follow the trends you suggest.
 
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GHPhotography, you're right. However, there are some features that should be shared that are reserved for the 1 series and it's not just about them being appropriate only for that series. For example I loved the illuminated focus points in the 1D4 and wanted that in my next camera so ..... Unfortunately there still is a small amount of the Toyota - Lexus analogy in this discussion.

Obviously, one can buy/use multiple cameras but I find for nature shooting and hiking that I'd rather not pack multiple cameras if possible along with multiple lenses.

Jack
 
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