Is Canon now two generations behind Nikon?

[Khalai]

Re: FF Canons are falling behind.

The Df with no Canon competitor? Why should Canon bother competing with a camera that isn't selling? :

Is the Df not selling well? That's a shame. Honestly, I think it's a neat little camera. I like the forced manual operation (if I understand its design correctly). It's a great deterrent to laziness and improving your skills I bet.

I don't intend to switch from Canon to Nikon (I'm investing in Canon flashes and lenses for a reason), but I'd have to say that if Canon came out with a Df competitor, like a full frame 20+ MP digital version of the A-1 or something, I'd be inclined to own it instead of my Powershot s95 for a second camera.

The problem lies, according to various posts on forums and such in Nikon going halfway with the retro styling, just front/top plate, the back of the camera is as recent as D6xx or D8xx. This also lead to some ergonomic quirks. Honestly, I like how the Df looks especially paired with that 50/1.8G in silver, but once you turn the camera around, the backside is quite frankly ugly and not very well designed.

 

[Mitch.Conner]

Re: FF Canons are falling behind.

The Df with no Canon competitor? Why should Canon bother competing with a camera that isn't selling? :

Is the Df not selling well? That's a shame. Honestly, I think it's a neat little camera. I like the forced manual operation (if I understand its design correctly). It's a great deterrent to laziness and improving your skills I bet.

I don't intend to switch from Canon to Nikon (I'm investing in Canon flashes and lenses for a reason), but I'd have to say that if Canon came out with a Df competitor, like a full frame 20+ MP digital version of the A-1 or something, I'd be inclined to own it instead of my Powershot s95 for a second camera.

The problem lies, according to various posts on forums and such in Nikon going halfway with the retro styling, just front/top plate, the back of the camera is as recent as D6xx or D8xx. This also lead to some ergonomic quirks. Honestly, I like how the Df looks especially paired with that 50/1.8G in silver, but once you turn the camera around, the backside is quite frankly ugly and not very well designed.

I've seen a photo of the back. I didn't realize that would be deemed a problem.

 

[Khalai]

Re: FF Canons are falling behind.

The problem lies, according to various posts on forums and such in Nikon going halfway with the retro styling, just front/top plate, the back of the camera is as recent as D6xx or D8xx. This also lead to some ergonomic quirks. Honestly, I like how the Df looks especially paired with that 50/1.8G in silver, but once you turn the camera around, the backside is quite frankly ugly and not very well designed.

I've seen a photo of the back. I didn't realize that would be deemed a problem.

According to DPreview, here are the cons of the Df:

Disappointing AF performance drops off in moderate light
Small coverage area of AF array (same as the D6x0)
Locking exposure comp dial is inconvenient (especially with large lenses)
Inconsistent use of materials detracts from sense of quality
1/4000th sec maximum shutter speed
No exposure scale or histogram in live view
Viewfinder focusing screen not best suited for manual focusing
Single SD card slot
Battery door prone to falling off some cameras
Combined SD/battery door under the camera awkward for tripod work
Front command dial not terribly comfortable to use
Body is rather large and heavy, considering small grip
Slow AF in live view
No two-button card format option
No percentage battery life/info available
No 'live' aperture control in live view mode presents inconsistencies between lens types
No time-lapse option (available on D610)
No infrared remote trigger option

I guess, it's just a modified D600 body with another sensor (D4 I guess). They could've polished it a bit more. I like the appearance in general, seems like a nice camera (played with it for a measly 20 minutes in a showroom).

 

[Mark D5 TEAM II]

The trolling OP, based on his few posts and newly-made account, obviously just made this thread to rile up the fanb0is, notice he never bothered to post here again, and is probably laughing his N0inky a$$ out at the number of posters and replies his thread manged to ensnare. Mods should have closed this thread early on since it's obviously troll-bait and the discussion has been covered in numerous other threads before and since.

If I wanted to read threads like this I would have just gonr to the DPR forums, where the Nikon guys have more posts in the Canon subforum than in their own subforum. Isn't that right bobn2?

 

[StudentOfLight]

Now, please provide the evidence for your claim. Or I will conclude that you - once again - prefer babbling rants to any fact based discussion.

To be honest, I haven't seen any reliable comparisons online that are conclusive, one way or the other.

Aha so it´s subjective.
But you always make it sound like it´s a fact written in stone.

Scroll up one post above yours where I list the better specs of the 5DIII. Scroll back a few pages to where I say I tested them head to head personally.

Neuro, there is so much SH!T and pointless requoting going on in this thread that I'm struggling to find your informal head-to-head test. Can you please help with a string of text to help my search (or quote your post) as I'm really interested to see real experience of an AF comparison. So far no one has shared anything that is remotely conclusive in favor of the D810 AF system even though many say it now on-par-with or better than the 5D-III. I don't find the Tony Northrup "AF Test" useful at all.

 

[123Photog]

Now, please provide the evidence for your claim. Or I will conclude that you - once again - prefer babbling rants to any fact based discussion.

To be honest, I haven't seen any reliable comparisons online that are conclusive, one way or the other.

Aha so it´s subjective.
But you always make it sound like it´s a fact written in stone.

Scroll up one post above yours where I list the better specs of the 5DIII. Scroll back a few pages to where I say I tested them head to head personally.

Neuro, there is so much SH!T and pointless requoting going on in this thread that I'm struggling to find your informal head-to-head test.
.....
Can you please help with a string of text to help my search (or quote your post) as I'm really interested to see real experience of an AF comparison.

He has none.
Only a test done by himself without any data.

 

[Ivan Muller]

Perhaps the question should be, is the 7d2 now two generations behind the Samsung NX1??

 

[123Photog]

Perhaps the question should be, is the 7d2 now two generations behind the Samsung NX1??

canon can be so happy that they have build an excellent lens collection over the years. :

im sure the 7D MK2 feels more pro and is a very polished product.
but overall i think canon could have done more.

the 7D MK2 is nothing that makes you jump out of joy.
but it´s a reliable product.

it just... for me it feels a bit outdated already (except the AF).

 

[Ivan Muller]

I am sure the 7d2 will be as good as it can possibly be...everything will work well & smoothly with more refinement & accuracy etc etc just like my 6d and also the 5d3 just feels so much better than my old5d2. But it seems that it will no longer have the best image qualitya t any iso (yes/no?) nor frames per second, nor features, nor almost anything one can think off...what it has going for it is a bunch of mostly very good lenses. But from all I have read Samsung also makes good lenses. It is going to be a while before they will become mainstream, but it sure looks like they left the starting blocks with a bang! It remains to be seen if Canon will pick up the challenge or just continue in their, so far very good, ways, but just not cutting edge anymore like in the days of the 5d and 5d2.....

 

[Woody]

Looking at the recent releases and announcements from all the companies, I must confess I can find something technically interesting in every product... except maybe Canon... Fujifilm XT-1, Olympus EM-1, Nikon D810, Sony A7S/A7R, Samsung NX1 etc etc

Canon has the power to deliver in the camera front... but is holding back... sigh...

 

[Woody]

I am sure the 7d2 will be as good as it can possibly be...everything will work well & smoothly with more refinement & accuracy etc etc just like my 6d and also the 5d3 just feels so much better than my old5d2. But it seems that it will no longer have the best image qualitya t any iso (yes/no?) nor frames per second, nor features, nor almost anything one can think off...what it has going for it is a bunch of mostly very good lenses. But from all I have read Samsung also makes good lenses. It is going to be a while before they will become mainstream, but it sure looks like they left the starting blocks with a bang! It remains to be seen if Canon will pick up the challenge or just continue in their, so far very good, ways, but just not cutting edge anymore like in the days of the 5d and 5d2.....

+1000

 

[sanj]

From a Canon employee (although not one from DSLR division or even from Japan):"....or those expecting 4K video in a DLSR will be very disappointed. Canon sees no reason for this in a consumer camera yet. They told my boss only about 10% of people buy a 5D III for it's video capabilities. They are focusing on cinema market and want you to pay big dollars for the C300/500 or 1DC if you must have a DSLR with 4K. 5D IV will not get it IMO and at best we will see 1080p @ 60fps."

Great so they want to go from a lot buying the 5D2 for video to 10% for the 5D3 to 0.1% for the 5D4. Brilliant.

If this is true and no Exmor-low ISO.... maybe Canon really and truly has lost the plot.
We'll see next year.

I still findit hard to believe they'd be that THAT foolish to leave 4k out of even the 5D4 though. I still think it will ahve it.

'A Canon employee', well that's specific. There are close to 200,000 of them, and the vast majority know nothing about the details of future corporate strategy. Anyone placed highly enough in the organization to actually know would also know better than to divulge. I'd give your quote about the same level of reliability if I heard it from a gas station attendant or supermarket cashier.

Hahahaha. True.

 

[Loswr]

Now, please provide the evidence for your claim. Or I will conclude that you - once again - prefer babbling rants to any fact based discussion.

To be honest, I haven't seen any reliable comparisons online that are conclusive, one way or the other.

Aha so it´s subjective.
But you always make it sound like it´s a fact written in stone.

Scroll up one post above yours where I list the better specs of the 5DIII. Scroll back a few pages to where I say I tested them head to head personally.

Neuro, there is so much SH!T and pointless requoting going on in this thread that I'm struggling to find your informal head-to-head test.
.....
Can you please help with a string of text to help my search (or quote your post) as I'm really interested to see real experience of an AF comparison.

He has none.
Only a test done by himself without any data.

Correct. I didn't set out to document my results or to demonstrate anything to anyone other than myself.

 

[3kramd5]

Re: FF Canons are falling behind.

The Df with no Canon competitor? Why should Canon bother competing with a camera that isn't selling? :

HEHE. Canon's retro look is hidden behind every one of their AA filters.

Are you implying that the days of AA filters are over? I think Nikon is taking a bold step by forcing the AA/no-AA filter choice on the D810 as opposed to it being up to the purchaser with the D800. I wouldn't feel comfortable not having that as a choice. If I was a D800 user (not a D800E user), I might be hesitant to upgrade.

No, he's talking about what's literally behind the AA filter: the sensor.

In other words: canon sensors are only good enough to produce a "retro look."

 

[Ivar]

As Canon manufacturers the SLR sensors solely for its own cameras the economies of scale are at play, compared to Sony who is catering a bigger market thus with more R&D opportunities. The next rumoured breakthrough in the Sony land is the global shutter ( http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/sr2-new-sony-12-megapixel-fulll-frame-global-shutter-sensor-specs ). I've got impression that Canon users are generally happy with their systems. I do wonder though about the next generation Canon sensor technology, will it improve in every front (apparently not much rumours) or will it cater "majority" via concentrating on specific features, more feasible to implement (ROI)?

 

[LetTheRightLensIn]

The new interview with Canon at DPR hints that improvement for low ISO DR may be a looooooong time coming from Canon. So for those who care, it might not even be worth waiting for 5D4. IF the 5D4 sales tank, then maybe by the 5D6 time, they will have both realized they have to respond and had time to do so. I don't think any DxO score embarrassment or any forum talk will influence them to go to a new sensor fab. It just costs a lot of money and the business guys won't go for it until after they have sales totally tank. They don't seem to want to prevent the chance for sales to tank, but are just gonna ride the current sensor types out until sales totally go away, if ever. (personally I suspect a 5D4 that has no 4k, no improved DR and does nothing over a 5D3 other than increase MP count a lot, will have sales a lot worse than the 5D2 or 5D3 did, so some degree of tanking might come sooner then they think, or not)

So if you are one who cares, it's probably time to give up for now and it might be time to just nab SONY+adapter and start thinking about potential swaps to Nikon in a year or so. Either keep what you have now from Canon and add a Sony for landscape DR and/or video or maybe sell your current Canon stuff, get a 7D2 to cover action/reach/speed and add Sony for the video and landscape work. If that mess is too much of pain for the long run, start plotting a swap to Nikon.

Ah well, at least it's just cameras, minor things in the grand scheme, plus there are other options anyway that even let you use Canon lenses still.

 

[Loswr]

I don't think any DxO score embarrassment or any forum talk will influence them to go to a new sensor fab.

Really? Who'da thunk?

They don't seem to want to prevent the chance for sales to tank, but are just gonna ride the current sensor types out until sales totally go away, if ever.

Thanks for including 'if ever'. It's possible – one might almost even call it likely – that Canon knows more about their market and what is important to their customers than DxO or a few people on the Internet.

 

[LetTheRightLensIn]

I don't think any DxO score embarrassment or any forum talk will influence them to go to a new sensor fab.

Really? Who'da thunk?

Well you could have hoped they'd get scared enough about the farther future to act before they have to see sales eventually tank to act and realize that the time might not still be a few generations out but by this or the next generation at the latest, but maybe the numbers are so big it makes more sense to alienate a lot of the userbase and even tank sales for a generation or two, fabs are $$$. Of course they could buy Sony sensors without nearly so much $$ lost. And way back when, they could easily have come out with a high performance fps FF body and so on and really, reallly built market share over Nikon and nearly left them in the dust. I guess it is just as well they did not though, since it means we still have options left to turn to away from Canon.

Maybe it will be the best financially overall for them, what they have done, then again lots of companies are less than perfectly run and make all sorts of decisions that end up not having worked out so well. I mean they were actually utterly clueless to the thought that anyone would want manual control over exposure in video! So they are pretty clearly not always getting it. Same for taking more than 10 years to dribble out a working AutoISO. What did that gain them? Did that really sell any extra 1 series or did it just annoy the userbase and make them less loyal? Was it smart to let their low/mid end DSLR video quality domination not charge forward?

They have reacted to most other whinefests, but sensor would be the most costly thing to react to, so I guess it's different.

They don't seem to want to prevent the chance for sales to tank, but are just gonna ride the current sensor types out until sales totally go away, if ever.

Thanks for including 'if ever'. It's possible – one might almost even call it likely – that Canon knows more about their market and what is important to their customers than DxO or a few people on the Internet.

First of all it's not about what is important to their customers as in striving to best meet their needs, it would be more in we know how much we can manage to get away with NOT delivering to them. Not really a positive for the end user.

As for sales, we will see. I think the 7D2 can definitely get away with not having Exmor low ISO DR and should be fine. I still think that if the 5D4 lands with nothing more than more MP over the 5D3 (no exmor DR and color and no 4k either) that it will sell a lot less than the prior 5 series models did though, maybe 25-30% less and if the 6D2 and 5D5 are the same I think that those might be down to 75% less maybe even 80%-90% less. I mean would the 5D5 have to offer? Many will probably be satisfied enough at 40MP to not go crazy over say 60-90MP if the quality of the photosites is still same old. But who knows, maybe the lenses and UI are enough to keep dragging along with the old sensor and sales for decades.

I do know it sure stinks for any Canon user who does want more DR.

And it's certainly nothing to celebrate, not as an end user. That they feel they have enough users locked in that they can just go along stuck in 2007 while Nikon/Sony will pull sensors farther and farther ahead. And it's not the Canon that used to be, the one known as the driving force.

So I don't it's some holy thing where Canon knows and is striving for the best for their customers. It's more of a knowing what they can get away with thing, at best. Which as the end user is hardly something jump up and down about.

 

[Loswr]

So I don't it's some holy thing where Canon knows and is striving for the best for their customers. It's more of a knowing what they can get away with thing, at best. Which as the end user is hardly something jump up and down about.

I didn't mean to imply that Canon knowing their customers' needs means they will/must meet those needs. The only people they really care about jumping for joy are their shareholders. Still, if they know a particular area if development is critical to a majority of their market and do nothing about it, their shareholders will eventually be unhappy about the loss of revenue. So the fact that they've apparently done very little to improve low ISO DR for many years suggests that (a) they know it's a critical need and don't mind pissing off their shareholders, (b) they know it's a critical need and are doing something about it in R&D and will bring it to market when deemed necessary, or (c) they know it's not a critical need for the majority of their market. I think (a) is pretty unlikely, (b) is possible...but you apparently doubt it, which leaves us with (c).

 

[LetTheRightLensIn]

So I don't it's some holy thing where Canon knows and is striving for the best for their customers. It's more of a knowing what they can get away with thing, at best. Which as the end user is hardly something jump up and down about.

I didn't mean to imply that Canon knowing their customers' needs means they will/must meet those needs. The only people they really care about jumping for joy are their shareholders. Still, if they know a particular area if development is critical to a majority of their market and do nothing about it, their shareholders will eventually be unhappy about the loss of revenue. So the fact that they've apparently done very little to improve low ISO DR for many years suggests that (a) they know it's a critical need and don't mind pissing off their shareholders, (b) they know it's a critical need and are doing something about it in R&D and will bring it to market when deemed necessary, or (c) they know it's not a critical need for the majority of their market. I think (a) is pretty unlikely, (b) is possible...but you apparently doubt it, which leaves us with (c).

I still think they will get bitten by this with the 5D4 a bit and a lot more if they try to push it another generation beyond.

We'll see. I could be wrong. Maybe the UI and lenses and everything still but for low ISO DR will enough for them to keep chugging along for years with good sales.

But don't forget these guys miscalculate all the time too.

Example 1:
They had no clue that anyone would want manual exposure for 5D2 video, even though it seemed self-evident and the second it was released everyone went nuts at the lack of manual control. Apparently they got a few PJs for a focus group and they wanted autoexposure for run and gun and somehow not one person at Canon thought to think that that focus group hardly had everything covered. It kind of boggles the mind.

And witness, maybe more on line with what we are talking about here Example 2:
Many have been asking in the forums why Canon isn't making something like the recently released RX100. After speaking with Mr. Maeda in early 2013 DPR noted that he responded:

"However, he ruled out the idea of a larger sensor camera along the lines of the Sony RX100 to offer more of an image quality distinction between smartphones and compact cameras. 'I think the market does exist but it wouldn't be very large. We think we have a good balancing point in terms of price, image quality and size. Lots of other combinations are possible, but, once you go below APS-C the next logical size is 1/2.3 inch', he says." "We see no need or market desire for a Sony RX100 type camera."


And now almost two years later, after RX100s of all marks fly off the shelves and it being one the great sellers for Sony:
Canon is proud to announce the G7X with the RX100 sensor. The market clearly demands a small pocketable camera with a large, top quality sensor.
;D




On the plus, if they get totally burned, it does show they try to correct quickly. So maybe if the 5D4 with old sensor burns them they'll be back quickly with a 5D5 even if they have to go to Sony for help.