It looks like 2021 will be the last year for the EOS M lineup [CR2]

Stichus III

EOS M6 Mark II
Dec 14, 2012
50
31
So would I, but my M5 now feels too small. The RP is about the same weight but larger and feels better.
I agree that the RP feels (much) better when held in my hands.

However, you can't use the RP without a lens on it. And when you place RF or EF glass on it, it won't be about the same weight as the EOS M5 coupled with EF-M glass. Not even close.
 
Ok, let's see things in a different way.

EF lenses line-ups are due to end anyway, may it be EF, EF-S or EF-M.

So no problem if Canon ends the production of M system for EF.
But I think they may reconsider keeping the -S concept first. I think it's clearly a dead end (and I hope they won't maintain all those useless numerous 18-xxx either BTW).

To my sense, the future APS-C line-ups should only be of two kinds :
  • high-end for prosumers sport/wildlife (i.e. EOS R7 or any 7D replacement), in other words, products for customers that mainly use FF lenses on APS-C to have more reach.
  • "Mini" for travel, family, VLOG and any casual usage (i.e EOS M... ), in other words, products for people that dig nice little "gems", like EOS M cameras actually are, for their every day life (which old EF-S, Rebels etc. tend not to be, if ever they were considered that way...).
These may be the only two "cropped" line-ups that have still a chance to be sold enough in the future.
But IMHO, they need to enhance EF-M to RF-M to make it more competitive in the APS-C mirrorless market (and I think the only adapter still needed would be the RF-M to EF considering the number of EF lenses around vs RF Lenses for the moment... that and the fact most EF-M owners love much more having lenses made to fit the size of the camera, may they be third party or brand name).
So, yes, EF-M "must" probably die, as all others EF mounts... but still, it should perdure thru another, more modern type of mount.
Certainly a valid possibility, but I think Canon had 2/3 APS-C segments (entry/mid/high) and then introduced the M series which was a new line with the same entry/mid/high. And I think the challenge we have and Canon is how those users can be "migrated" to a smaller range of equipment.

An entry level FF camera certainly would be at a similar price point to the mid APS-C and equate to the high end M, but both those "target" users will have lenses from their current bodies, and neither will work on a FF to great effect. I get thus the "simple" solution to shove an APS-C sensor into an R body, and with the right price points / features, you could probably collapse that segment from 3 models to 2, but that doesn't work for the M series, which to my mind have different requirements to the other Canon APS-C users and no migration...

Still. By the end of 2021 we should have a clearer idea, and likely not huge amount of opportunities to use any camera kit extensively unless it is part of your business.
 
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Pierre Lagarde

Canon, Nikon and So on ...
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Certainly a valid possibility, but I think Canon had 2/3 APS-C segments (entry/mid/high) and then introduced the M series which was a new line with the same entry/mid/high. And I think the challenge we have and Canon is how those users can be "migrated" to a smaller range of equipment.

An entry level FF camera certainly would be at a similar price point to the mid APS-C and equate to the high end M, but both those "target" users will have lenses from their current bodies, and neither will work on a FF to great effect. I get thus the "simple" solution to shove an APS-C sensor into an R body, and with the right price points / features, you could probably collapse that segment from 3 models to 2, but that doesn't work for the M series, which to my mind have different requirements to the other Canon APS-C users and no migration...

Still. By the end of 2021 we should have a clearer idea, and likely not huge amount of opportunities to use any camera kit extensively unless it is part of your business.
Valid points here too, yes. It's certain Canon's line-ups have to change in a near future whatever the identified targets may be.
Anyway, right, of course, time will tell us.

Mobilis in Mobili...
 
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BakaBokeh

EOS 90D
CR Pro
May 16, 2020
159
309
Ok, let's see things in a different way.

EF lenses line-ups are due to end anyway, may it be EF, EF-S or EF-M.

So no problem if Canon ends the production of M system for EF.
But I think they may reconsider keeping the -S concept first. I think it's clearly a dead end (and I hope they won't maintain all those useless numerous 18-xxx either BTW).

To my sense, the future APS-C line-ups should only be of two kinds :
  • high-end for prosumers sport/wildlife (i.e. EOS R7 or any 7D replacement), in other words, products for customers that mainly use FF lenses on APS-C to have more reach.
  • "Mini" for travel, family, VLOG and any casual usage (i.e EOS M... ), in other words, products for people that dig nice little "gems", like EOS M cameras actually are, for their every day life (which old EF-S, Rebels etc. tend not to be, if ever they were considered that way...).
These may be the only two "cropped" line-ups that have still a chance to be sold enough in the future.
But IMHO, they need to enhance EF-M to RF-M to make it more competitive in the APS-C mirrorless market (and I think the only adapter still needed would be the RF-M to EF considering the number of EF lenses around vs RF Lenses for the moment... that and the fact most EF-M owners love much more having lenses made to fit the size of the camera, may they be third party or brand name).
So, yes, EF-M "must" probably die, as all others EF mounts... but still, it should perdure thru another, more modern type of mount.
I agree It would make so much sense to me if they just developed an RF-M mount (Or RF-S/RF-C whatever you want to call it). A new system, just as small and light as EF-M with the benefits of RF. I'm sure everyone who is an EF-M fan would be fine with that.

But the portion of the rumor that puts that idea to bed is this:

" Both sources were also adamant that there will not be RF-S lenses for APS-C EOS R cameras, but that future lens design will “fill the void of no dedicated APS-C lenses”. "

I've already stated that it most likely means a full frame lens that may shift focal lengths to accommodate for crop. But that also means these lenses will most likely not be as small and light as EF-M. That's what makes it disappointing.
 

Pierre Lagarde

Canon, Nikon and So on ...
Aug 4, 2020
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...
But the portion of the rumor that puts that idea to bed is this:

" Both sources were also adamant that there will not be RF-S lenses for APS-C EOS R cameras, but that future lens design will “fill the void of no dedicated APS-C lenses”. "
...
I may have not been clear enough. What I wrote perfectly agrees with the rumor : the fact is there should be no RF-S in the future, but probably a smaller RF-M mount and distinct system... no need for compatibility with bigger standard RF mount.
So RF mount and R APS-C cameras will just benefit of FF lenses designed for both FF and APS-C. On the other hand, there can be a distinct dedicated RF-M system with RF specs instead of the old EF ones for connections and electronic design.
 
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BakaBokeh

EOS 90D
CR Pro
May 16, 2020
159
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We must be reading it differently. When it says, that there is not going to be any "dedicated APS-C lenses", I don't just mean there won't be a RF-S, it also means there will be no distinct RF-M lens system either.

So I don't think the portion where you say "there can be a distinct dedicated RF-M system" agrees with the rumor at all. That implies a dedicated APS-C lens line up, which the rumor clearly states is not happening. I want it to, and hope it is a possibility in the future, because I don't think full frame lenses for full frame and crop RF bodies fills any kind of void for the small and light system. That's seems like the direction Canon is going.
 

Pierre Lagarde

Canon, Nikon and So on ...
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We must be reading it differently. When it says, that there is not going to be any "dedicated APS-C lenses", I don't just mean there won't be a RF-S, it also means there will be no distinct RF-M lens system either.
Well, to be true, it leaves room for interpretation. To my sense, the rumor is only referring to EOS R cameras and "EF-S/dedicated APS-C lenses" transposition to the standard R system. It does not refer to M system at all.

Read it again : " Both sources were also adamant that there will not be RF-S lenses for APS-C EOS R cameras, but that future lens design will “fill the void of no dedicated APS-C lenses” ... to me, no trace of M system at all in this context.

On the other hand, considering the nowadays sales figures tendencies, and the fact that EF-S has always been a globally weak line-up, with EF-M being incomparably superior with only few lenses, I really can't see how both line-ups can be considered to be included in the same context of planification and really hope Canon see it that way too.
For instance, there has never been any EF-S equivalent to 11-22mm, 22mm or 32mm whether it is size wise, optically or anything.
 

allkar

Contax/leftover Canon and a shift to medium format
Jan 3, 2014
57
38
It is a well know fact that the RF lenses are MUCH bigger and a lot more expensive than the EF-M. No need to keep on mentioning it.
Apparently necessary, if someone compares only body size and thinks it is similar. Camera without a lens is useless, so you should see both together. Always!
 

BakaBokeh

EOS 90D
CR Pro
May 16, 2020
159
309
Well, to be true, it leaves room for interpretation. To my sense, the rumor is only referring to EOS R cameras and "EF-S/dedicated APS-C lenses" transposition to the standard R system. It does not refer to M system at all.

Read it again : " Both sources were also adamant that there will not be RF-S lenses for APS-C EOS R cameras, but that future lens design will “fill the void of no dedicated APS-C lenses” ... to me, no trace of M system at all in this context.

On the other hand, considering the nowadays sales figures tendencies, and the fact that EF-S has always been a globally weak line-up, with EF-M being incomparably superior with only few lenses, I really can't see how both line-ups can be considered to be included in the same context of planification and really hope Canon see it that way too.
For instance, there has never been any EF-S equivalent to 11-22mm, 22mm or 32mm whether it is size wise, optically or anything.
I guess the key that makes me interpret no RF-M is because the context of the rumor in the first place. The rumor is asserting that it is the end of the EF-M system. It says absolutely nothing about EF-S. I think you are the only one to introduce the equivalency of EF-S ~ RF-S. The rumor says, the EF-M system is being replaced with RF with no special crop lens design. To me that just means lenses that will work on both full frame and aps-c. ergo a bigger lens design that gets cropped just like using regular EF lenses on a Cropped 7D or 90D.
 

SteveC

R5
CR Pro
Sep 3, 2019
1,948
1,792
Ok, let's see things in a different way.

EF lenses line-ups are due to end anyway, may it be EF, EF-S or EF-M.
Is EF-M really an EF mount in the way that EF-S is? It's physically quite different, both in size and purpose. EF-S is much, much more similar to EF, in fact it's interchangeable in one direction (EF lenses work directly on an EF-S camera), but EF-M is quite different, and cannot be used on any other mount whose name begins with EF, [nor the other way around, at least not without an adapter.])

I could see EF and EF-S disappearing eventually (though they can be adapted to work with either of the other two mounts), while leaving EF-M around, if this rumor turns out to be false and Canon isn't killing the EF-M line.
 

hachu21

EOS 90D
Feb 11, 2014
112
32
Is EF-M really an EF mount in the way that EF-S is? It's physically quite different, both in size and purpose. EF-S is much, much more similar to EF, in fact it's interchangeable in one direction (EF lenses work directly on an EF-S camera), but EF-M is quite different, and cannot be used on any other mount whose name begins with EF, [nor the other way around, at least not without an adapter.])
Yes they are similar because they use the same electronic protocol (ef to ef-m adapter is just pass through electronically).
In the future, ef-m will always be limited to old EF protocol (RF protocol use 2 more contacts for bandwith)
 

Bob Howland

EOS RP
CR Pro
Mar 25, 2012
598
190
I agree that the RP feels (much) better when held in my hands.

However, you can't use the RP without a lens on it. And when you place RF or EF glass on it, it won't be about the same weight as the EOS M5 coupled with EF-M glass. Not even close.
True. but how about an R7 and M7 which are very similar or identical to each other, except for the lens mount, and about the same size as and only slightly heavier than an RP?
 
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True. but how about an R7 and M7 which are very similar or identical to each other, except for the lens mount, and about the same size as and only slightly heavier than an RP?
It's more about the glass you can add on to an M vs an RF.... Even if you attach the slower EF f/4 lenses they're imbalanced on the M bodies. Of course there is a potential trade-off with the M lenses on durability - I tend to be more careful with them in comparison to my EF L lenses. It's a compromise system which has different "objectives" to the APS-C dSLR, FF dSLR and FF mirrorless.

I still have my larger bodies, and I don't see me selling them any time soon (I bought the R5 last August). The M series fulfills a need for me in terms of it's size and weight. Whether that would diminish if Apple released a decent 5x zoom on an iphone at a reasonable price I am not sure - over time perhaps (few years).

I am sure people who have bought the M series have different reasons, different from mine and some of those may well find an R solution works for them. Maybe Canon will surprise us all and produce some amazing small and light lenses and completely change my view (and boost the 2nd hand market for M systems - ha ha).
 

jolyonralph

EOS R5 Mark II
CR Pro
Aug 25, 2015
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Is EF-M really an EF mount in the way that EF-S is? It's physically quite different, both in size and purpose. EF-S is much, much more similar to EF, in fact it's interchangeable in one direction (EF lenses work directly on an EF-S camera), but EF-M is quite different, and cannot be used on any other mount whose name begins with EF, [nor the other way around, at least not without an adapter.])

I could see EF and EF-S disappearing eventually (though they can be adapted to work with either of the other two mounts), while leaving EF-M around, if this rumor turns out to be false and Canon isn't killing the EF-M line.
Two important things.

Yes, EF-M is closer to RF than to EF in terms of technology.

EF and EF-S are never going to disappear. How many EF/EF-S lenses are there out there? Even if Canon stopped shipping EF lenses tomorrow, there are so many out there that we'll be using them for decades to come.

Canon will continue to sell EF lenses for as long as it's profitable to do so, which primarily relies on how many parts they have stockpiled and how much resources they have in terms of production space/staff to put them together. Again, those EF bodies out there aren't going away. How many 5D Mark IIIs are out there still taking excellent photos every day? Someone will keep using them until the shutters fail, and some of those users will want to buy more lenses.



The threat to EF-M isn't the RF mount of course, it's smartphones.
 
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Pierre Lagarde

Canon, Nikon and So on ...
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Is EF-M really an EF mount in the way that EF-S is? It's physically quite different, both in size and purpose. EF-S is much, much more similar to EF, in fact it's interchangeable in one direction (EF lenses work directly on an EF-S camera), but EF-M is quite different, and cannot be used on any other mount whose name begins with EF, [nor the other way around, at least not without an adapter.])

I could see EF and EF-S disappearing eventually (though they can be adapted to work with either of the other two mounts), while leaving EF-M around, if this rumor turns out to be false and Canon isn't killing the EF-M line.
Indeed, I agree it can also be another valid hypothesis. The fact is EF-M is a better mount then standard EF and can probably be kept as it is without evolution.
 
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Pierre Lagarde

Canon, Nikon and So on ...
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I guess the key that makes me interpret no RF-M is because the context of the rumor in the first place. The rumor is asserting that it is the end of the EF-M system. It says absolutely nothing about EF-S. I think you are the only one to introduce the equivalency of EF-S ~ RF-S. The rumor says, the EF-M system is being replaced with RF with no special crop lens design. To me that just means lenses that will work on both full frame and aps-c. ergo a bigger lens design that gets cropped just like using regular EF lenses on a Cropped 7D or 90D.
The title and article writing are not the original statements of the rumour. It's already an interpretation of what's been said and only reflects the author's views. Fair enough : his website, his opinion. Same goes for me : my reading, my opinion. ;)

And I'm sorry to think it simple : why talk about "RF-S" if it's not to refer to "EF-S" (you see the similarity ? I give you a clue : there's a "-S" at both ends.. :D ? )
 
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EOS 4 Life

EOS 90D
Sep 20, 2020
178
110
I may have not been clear enough. What I wrote perfectly agrees with the rumor : the fact is there should be no RF-S in the future, but probably a smaller RF-M mount and distinct system... no need for compatibility with bigger standard RF mount.
So RF mount and R APS-C cameras will just benefit of FF lenses designed for both FF and APS-C. On the other hand, there can be a distinct dedicated RF-M system with RF specs instead of the old EF ones for connections and electronic design.
I would love to see a new DSLR mount with RF mount specs and IBIS
Pentax DSLR cameras have IBIS so I think the EF mount is just too small relative to the sensor to have it.
That would also mean APS-C cameras could have IBIS that only works with full-frame lenses.
 

privatebydesign

EOS-1D X Mark III
CR Pro
Jan 29, 2011
9,346
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I would love to see a new DSLR mount with RF mount specs and IBIS
Pentax DSLR cameras have IBIS so I think the EF mount is just too small relative to the sensor to have it.
That would also mean APS-C cameras could have IBIS that only works with full-frame lenses.
There isn’t room for a DSLR mirror with an RF mount Flange distance.

The EF and RF mount hole are essentially the same size.
 

EOS 4 Life

EOS 90D
Sep 20, 2020
178
110
There isn’t room for a DSLR mirror with an RF mount Flange distance.

The EF and RF mount hole are essentially the same size.
I am aware of the flange distance limitations.
What I would like is the extra data pins and the higher data speeds of the RF mount.
You are correct about the mounts being the same size.
It looks like Canon and Nikon could have had IBIS this whole time but chose not to.
I would be happy with the same mount and IBIS.