Just Touching the Surface of Dual Pixel Technology? [CR1]

[Canon Rumors]

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<p><strong>Dual Pixel technology more than just AF?

</strong><a href="http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/cameras/Canon_rumours.html">NL</a> reports that they’ve been told to expect even more new features from Canon’s Dual Pixel technology other than autofocus. Currently the tech appears in the <a href="http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/986389-REG/canon_8469b002_canon_eos_70d_dslr.html/bi/2466/kbid/3296" target="_blank">EOS 70D </a>and will also appear in an upgraded <a href="http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/889545-REG/Canon_EOS_C100_EF_Cinema.html/bi/2466/kbid/3296" target="_blank">EOS C100</a>. Will the <a href="http://www.canonrumors.com/2013/11/from-interbee-interview-with-the-head-of-cinema-eos/" target="_blank">C300 get a similar upgrade</a>?</p>
<p>Apparently dual pixel design will need the latest generation of processing (DIGIC 6/7?) technology to realize its full potential. The benefits of this alongside new CODECS will be seen in the next Cinema EOS cameras and possibly in new high end DSLRs.</p>
<p>The video and stills segments of the professional lineup will get upgrades in 2014. Cinema EOS will get it first, and possibly be shown in April at NAB 2014 in Las Vegas. DSLRs will get it in the second half of the year and will most likely be shown at Photokina 2014 in Cologne, Germany.</p>
<p>Source: [<a href="http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/cameras/Canon_rumours.html" target="_blank">NL</a>]</p>
<p><strong><span style="color: #ff0000;">c</span>r</strong></p>

 

[Mt Spokane Photography]

I expect that future generations will have a lot more features, it was apparently pretty difficult to get the first version working, but it has gained acceptance and has good reviews, so maybe we will see tracking, and even replace the phase detect for lower end DSLR's. That will cut the cost to make them.

Right now, there are plenty of weak points even with such a good start.

 

[Ruined]

I wonder if this will be seen in the 6D2 next year? 6D2 needs new autofocus system by far the most out of all the FF cameras, plus it will be a good testbed before they put it in the higher end cameras.

 

[Mantanuska]

6D2 next year? No. Try '15 or '16

 

[unfocused]

Trying to imagine what the uses might be.

I don't know if this is possible, but it would be fantastic if the technology could be used to eliminate the need to micro adjust lenses.

Photographer points camera at a target (high contrast image with sharp lines, such as a block of type). Focusing pixels feed information back to camera,which displays a message telling photographer what setting to micro adjust the camera to for that lens.

Since the dual pixels are used to gather focusing data, are there other kinds of data they can gather and incorporate?

Could this be used for noise reduction, higher resolution, dynamic range etc. etc.

It would certainly disappoint many on this forum if Canon were to leapfrog the competition utilizing this new technology.

 

[Ruined]

6D2 next year? No. Try '15 or '16

Do you think they are perhaps referencing 7D2?

 

[JimKarczewski]

Higher Dynamic range?? Would be an obvious choice.

1 Pixel pulls low info, 1 pixel pulls high..

 

[Drizzt321]

Higher Dynamic range?? Would be an obvious choice.

1 Pixel pulls low info, 1 pixel pulls high..

Yea, that's what I was thinking. Especially ever since Magic Lantern started doing that with the dual-readout line skipping on the 5d3. Not quite the same thing, but if the dual-pixel setup lets them have a different read-out/amp for each photosite per bayer CFA point...that'd be pretty awesome. Remains to be seen if they can maintain the good high ISO performance as they are essentially cutting the size of each photosite in half.

 

[Don Haines]

Higher Dynamic range?? Would be an obvious choice.

1 Pixel pulls low info, 1 pixel pulls high..

Yea, that's what I was thinking. Especially ever since Magic Lantern started doing that with the dual-readout line skipping on the 5d3. Not quite the same thing, but if the dual-pixel setup lets them have a different read-out/amp for each photosite per bayer CFA point...that'd be pretty awesome. Remains to be seen if they can maintain the good high ISO performance as they are essentially cutting the size of each photosite in half.

HDR is almost a given..... but with 20 million plus focus points and gobs more computing power you can expect to see object tracking autofocus that puts the capabilities of the 1DX to shame...

 

[pedro]

What are the possible effects on better high ISO IQ with this tech? Let's say: in the 25k - 51k range?

 

[Loswr]

Regarding HDR, as pointed out, the chip architecture must support separate amplifier circuitry for each sub-pixel, and there will be a noise penalty (base ISO will effectively be 200, but current HTP is similar, so it would be like HTP on steroids).

 

[Marsu42]

I wonder if this will be seen in the 6D2 next year? 6D2 needs new autofocus system by far the most out of all the FF cameras, plus it will be a good testbed before they put it in the higher end cameras.

If there is a 6d2 in 2014 my bet is that it will *not* get a new or significantly better phase af system - why should Canon waste a main selling point of the even more expensive dslrs?

What will probably happen that the live view dual pixel af is supposed to "fix" this shortcoming and is expected to be used as the video and some stills af system for amateurs just like on the 70d.

 

[transpo1]

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<p><strong>Dual Pixel technology more than just AF?


</strong><a href=\"http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/cameras/Canon_rumours.html\">NL</a> reports that they’ve been told to expect even more new features from Canon’s Dual Pixel technology other than autofocus. Currently the tech appears in the <a href=\"http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/986389-REG/canon_8469b002_canon_eos_70d_dslr.html/bi/2466/kbid/3296\" target=\"_blank\">EOS 70D </a>and will also appear in an upgraded <a href=\"http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/889545-REG/Canon_EOS_C100_EF_Cinema.html/bi/2466/kbid/3296\" target=\"_blank\">EOS C100</a>. Will the <a href=\"http://www.canonrumors.com/2013/11/from-interbee-interview-with-the-head-of-cinema-eos/\" target=\"_blank\">C300 get a similar upgrade</a>?</p>
<p>Apparently dual pixel design will need the latest generation of processing (DIGIC 6/7?) technology to realize its full potential. The benefits of this alongside new CODECS will be seen in the next Cinema EOS cameras and possibly in new high end DSLRs.</p>
<p>The video and stills segments of the professional lineup will get upgrades in 2014. Cinema EOS will get it first, and possibly be shown in April at NAB 2014 in Las Vegas. DSLRs will get it in the second half of the year and will most likely be shown at Photokina 2014 in Cologne, Germany.</p>
<p>Source: [<a href=\"http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/cameras/Canon_rumours.html\" target=\"_blank\">NL</a>]</p>
<p><strong><span style=\"color: #ff0000;\">c</span>r</strong></p>

"DSLRs will get it in the second half of the year" means the 7D2.

 

[vscd]

>but if the dual-pixel setup lets them have a different read-out/amp for each photosite
>per bayer CFA point...that'd be pretty awesome. Remains to be seen if they can maintain
>the good high ISO performance as they are essentially cutting the size of each photosite in half.

They don't have to. While increased ISO's are used, you could switch back to use both diodes together as a bigger one. Or you could do 2 frames while the mirror is up, one with pushed/pulled sensors and then one with normal sensitiviy. Rendered together gives you more Range with the same ISO.

There are a lot of possibilities in here because you can do a lot of mathematical variations in realtime. You could even get rid of the AA-Filter with comparing 2 different pictures, captured with one or another sensor-pixel. They already wrote of the Digic6+7, needed for the increasing data/algorithms )

I don't think they will remove the AF-Modul from the higher spec-Kameras... you can't compare some phasedetecting pixels on the chip with a dedicated AF-Sensor. The areas are much bigger and more precisely... especially in the dark. But you could do nearly silent cameras for shootings, the mirror doesn't have to move upwards.

 

[meauounji]

Thing I'm excited about in that post: new codecs.

Thing I hope dual pixel AF tech will do: reduce rolling shutter in video (faster CMOS read/reset speed)

 

[jebrady03]

I'm ready for QPAF (Quad Pixel).
HDR plus AF.
it seems like a natural evolution to me

 

[dufflover]

A lot of these ideas sound pretty neat but at the same times some of them don't sound like dual-pixel but rather something that you can do if you just crammed in twice as many normal pixels into the camera? To put it another way, if the dual-pixel system is basically two fully functioning pixels (because that's what some of the ideas seem to be using) what's the difference?

 

[9VIII]

A lot of these ideas sound pretty neat but at the same times some of them don't sound like dual-pixel but rather something that you can do if you just crammed in twice as many normal pixels into the camera? To put it another way, if the dual-pixel system is basically two fully functioning pixels (because that's what some of the ideas seem to be using) what's the difference?

That's what I'm wondering right now.
I would use the dual pixels for a more compact RGBG pixel layout with better colour accuracy, but that's just halfway to increasing resolution by 4 times and getting a perfect RGB signal per pixel (counting four photosites as one pixel).
It would be nice if camera companies would just switch to the same standards as display companies use and count groupings of three sub-pixels as one pixel.

 

[rs]

I would use the dual pixels for a more compact RGBG pixel layout with better colour accuracy, but that's just halfway to increasing resolution by 4 times and getting a perfect RGB signal per pixel (counting four photosites as one pixel).
It would be nice if camera companies would just switch to the same standards as display companies use and count groupings of three sub-pixels as one pixel.

Nice idea, but that's presuming you want to display the image on screen at 1:1 using a current generation display. The problem is people print, people display at other sizes than 1:1, and display technology changes. Compare colour CRT's with their seemingly unrelated pixel and RGB layout, LCD's with predictable pixel to RGB layout, pentile displays etc.

Take video for example. Rolling shutter is a very real problem, but roll back the clock to the very first video camera and TV - a one pixel camera with a spinning Nipkow disk. It had zero rolling shutter because the display device was a single light lit by the electrical output of the single pixel, and another Nipkow disk. Great system, but only good when matched with a specific output system.

The best is surely to get the recorded image as close to theoretically perfect as possible, then as output devices mature (by chasing that same goal), it all looks good regardless. However, with retina displays, high DPI printers and high MP cameras most of us have within reach now, the detailed arrangement of how prime colours are individually captured and reproduced has become almost meaningless.

 

[dgatwood]

Take video for example. Rolling shutter is a very real problem, but roll back the clock to the very first video camera and TV - a one pixel camera with a spinning Nipkow disk. It had zero rolling shutter because the display device was a single light lit by the electrical output of the single pixel, and another Nipkow disk. Great system, but only good when matched with a specific output system.

I would argue that Nipkow disk designs have rolling shutter problems just like a CMOS sensor, just like tube cameras, etc., and for the same reason. Any time you scan an image from left to right, top to bottom over the course of a thirtieth of a second, the scene you are shooting can change considerably between when you read the upper left corner and when you read the bottom right corner. That's rolling shutter. The only difference is that you never stored a whole frame image from a Nipkow disk, so the viewer would probably not have perceived the rolling shutter.

There's only one way to avoid rolling shutter in an all-electronic image system (*), and that's to use a secondary off-secreen buffer. Basically, you simultaneously reset all of the pixels to start sampling, then wait a period of time (the exposure time), and then simultaneously shift all of the pixels into that secondary buffer so that they won't change while you're reading them, and finally read the pixels out in whatever order you want to, at whatever speed you can manage.

(*) If you don't care about being all-electronic, you can use either a physical shutter as DSLRs do for stills or use film with a physical shutter and then scan it later.