Let's talk about photographer-friendly monitors

[gigabellone]

3rd party monitor stands cost as much as monitors, so i guess i'm better off getting a new monitor.

You might consider looking on www.monoprice.com for monitor arms. They also have cables for dirt cheap, too. I've been pleased with them...

They are based in the US, i don't know if they ship to Italy, and, even if they do, there would also be a lot of crap involved from customs. :-\

Anyway, the Dell U2413 seems to have it all: 24", 99% AdobeRGB, 1920x1200, lots of different connectors, 4 USB3 ports, integrated card reader, price under 500€. Just to be sure i'm picking the right one, does any of you know of another monitor with similar specs?

Now, for the colorimeter: i really don't have a clue, and i need your help!

 

[LetTheRightLensIn]

UHD/4k are not the tiniest bit overrated, if anything, they are vastly underrated

It's the difference between something starting to look a bit like a print/magazine/slide/looking out a window and something looking totally digital/artificial/blocky/no detail/computery.

Dell UP2414Q is a good choice, the price has come way down, I think it's like $750 now

It has:
UHD (at 60Hz over DisplayPort 1.2)

a pretty wide gamut (wider than CCFL wide gamut)

internal high bit LUT for: internal calibration without banding; programmable primary locations so you can dial in perfect sRGB emulation modes for when you need that; it might be 3D because it seems to provide extremely linear and uniform calibrations even when tone response or gamut are greatly altered from native

programmable screen uniformity compensation

the LED backlight is direct current driven instead of the typical cheap flickering PWM driven LED backlighting

it has the new less obtrusive anti-glare coating

it is IPS (although this does have the downside of poor contrast ratios and faded blacks compared to PVA/MVA and such; one day we will get OLED in these monitors and then be truly set as that gives wide gamut with wide viewing angles with fast response with deep blacks)

It's the best photo purchase I've made in years. (If they made a 5k 27" versions that had all of these features that would be truly amazing (they do have a 5k 27" now but it lacks a number of the above features) as that would gain a bit more impressive size and show over 14MP at once instead of just 8MP at once.)

I used to use a NEC PA241W.

 

[LetTheRightLensIn]

Is there a direct correlation between color bit depth and the color gamut?

absolutely none

I read that to enable a 10 bit workflow, proper hw and sw are needed, is it the same for 8bit+frc panels?

Yes, you need a pro graphics card and only some software (maybe) supports 10bit. It doesn't matter whether it is direct 10bit panel (almost unheard of) or 8bit+2frc 10bit.

10bit doesn't give you a wider gamut, it has nothing to do with gamut size at all, it just defines how fine grained the steps are from 0 signal to max signal. 8bits give 256 steps of gray from back to white (or black to max red/green/blue) and 10bit gives 1024 steps. You can have 10bits and smaller than sRGB gamut and 6bits and larger than AdobeRGB gamut. The gamut size is one thing and the fineness of the steps between colors is another thing.

 

[LetTheRightLensIn]

4K/5K is a bit of a mess right now. As I understand it, DisplayPort 2.0 needs to be brought on-line to fully support the resolution at 60Hz and up. Last I read, there is really no movement on the 2.0 standard yet.

Current 4K/5K monitors are using 1 DisplayPort 1.2 to get 30Hz and (2) cables to get 60Hz. Some monitors flake out if the cable is cheesy.

You have things a bit mixed up. It is HDMI that needs 2.0 standard to drive 4k at 60Hz. DisplayPort 1.2 handles 4k at 60Hz just fine (and only requires a single cable). 5k might require more than 1 cable even for DP 1.2 or HDMI 2.0 though, not sure.

It does seem like DisplayPort 1.2 UHD/4k needs a good cable. The Accell cables seem to work out best for UHD/4k.

The Dell 4K has a firmware issue- wake from sleep.

You can disable sleep and go to screen save instead.
Anyway, you can get out of most of the Dell bugs by something a simple as telling it to switch from DP connector to miniDP and back or DP to HDMI and back and then seems to rid all issues 99% of the time.

For me the bugs haven't been that much of a big deal and the upside is 10000000x greater IMO.

 

[Famateur]

3rd party monitor stands cost as much as monitors, so i guess i'm better off getting a new monitor.

You might consider looking on www.monoprice.com for monitor arms. They also have cables for dirt cheap, too. I've been pleased with them...

They are based in the US, i don't know if they ship to Italy, and, even if they do, there would also be a lot of crap involved from customs. :-\

Ah...gotcha. That's a bummer.

Now, for the colorimeter: i really don't have a clue, and i need your help!

I've been quite pleased with the X-Rite i1 Display Pro. It's pretty easy to use, and I've been pleased with the results I get between my printer and the Dell IPS display I calibrate it with.

That reminds me...It's been a month or two since I calibrated last. Better go do that now...

 

[brad goda]

so rather than photographer "friendly" monitors
you need a photographic accurate monitor… sorry not correcting you but the terminology is specific to what you need.
lots of monitors will be friendly and look great but you need accuracy for brightness contrast hue and color displayed consistently.
yes a lot of the recommendations are good…!!! yes you will need controlled environment.. interior lighting and treatment..
good color calibration is mandatory!!!
but basing all of this IS what you are looking at so know your color numbers in photoshop.
the monitor you are looking for should display a wide gamut of color usually indicated as % adobe rgb range / accuracy.
a good monitor will display more than 100% of adobe rgb range and try not to buy one below 90% if its going to be your critical master monitor.
Yes resolution is also critical but most displays that are in the graphic use range will be more than great in resolution.
I use NEC monitors. The 3090WQXi is serving me well and very good all around as my master monitor, for tools the P221W is reasonably priced but color is not the same as the WQXi . The monitor IS the gateway for output so its purchase should be seriously scrutinized. Besides making general monitors and graphics monitors NEC makes monitors for medical use.
good luck !!
Have fun !!

 

[Maiaibing]

I use Samsung 971 - its a blast but expensive. It also has auto calibration which I very strongly recommend. For this I use the X-rite colormeter.

No matter what make sure you can calibrate your monitor regulary - it makes all the difference.

 

[gigabellone]

The more i study the matter, the more it gets complicated. ;D

https://fstoppers.com/pictures/adobergb-vs-srgb-3167

http://help.smugmug.com/customer/portal/articles/93362-what-colorspace-should-my-files-be-in-

It seems like using AdobeRGB would make the workflow a little more cumbersome in case one wants to share photos online. Is there an obvious difference between prints based on sRGB and AdobeRGB? Since i'm not going to print that often, it needs to be worthwhile for me to invest money an time into the technology.

 

[privatebydesign]

The more i study the matter, the more it gets complicated. ;D

https://fstoppers.com/pictures/adobergb-vs-srgb-3167

http://help.smugmug.com/customer/portal/articles/93362-what-colorspace-should-my-files-be-in-

It seems like using AdobeRGB would make the workflow a little more cumbersome in case one wants to share photos online. Is there an obvious difference between prints based on sRGB and AdobeRGB? Since i'm not going to print that often, it needs to be worthwhile for me to invest money an time into the technology.

The problem with 'studying' things like this from places like that is that they are not formally educated and often talk a lot of rubbish.

Do you shoot RAW or jpeg?

If you shoot RAW it doesn't matter which colour space you assign in your camera because the RAW file doesn't honour either, if you then carry on and work in Adobe Lightroom it works in an even bigger colour space that contains all the information your camera captured, you don't assign a colour space until you actually export the image and assigning whatever colour space you want is no more time consuming or difficult than telling it to be full sized or 1200px.

If you shoot jpeg and are editing and printing from that then it doesn't matter as you have comparatively little editing latitude anyway and you have already thrown away most of the information your camera captured.

 

[gigabellone]

The more i study the matter, the more it gets complicated. ;D

https://fstoppers.com/pictures/adobergb-vs-srgb-3167

http://help.smugmug.com/customer/portal/articles/93362-what-colorspace-should-my-files-be-in-

It seems like using AdobeRGB would make the workflow a little more cumbersome in case one wants to share photos online. Is there an obvious difference between prints based on sRGB and AdobeRGB? Since i'm not going to print that often, it needs to be worthwhile for me to invest money an time into the technology.

The problem with 'studying' things like this from places like that is that they are not formally educated and often talk a lot of rubbish.

Do you shoot RAW or jpeg?

If you shoot RAW it doesn't matter which colour space you assign in your camera because the RAW file doesn't honour either, if you then carry on and work in Adobe Lightroom it works in an even bigger colour space that contains all the information your camera captured, you don't assign a colour space until you actually export the image and assigning whatever colour space you want is no more time consuming or difficult than telling it to be full sized or 1200px.

If you shoot jpeg and are editing and printing from that then it doesn't matter as you have comparatively little editing latitude anyway and you have already thrown away most of the information your camera captured.

Thank you, your explanation gave me a better view on the subject. There's still one thing i can't grasp. If i edit my images in a large color space, and then set the software to export the picture in a narrower color space, how do i know in advance which colors will be "discarded"? Is there an export preview mode like Lightroom 5?

 

[KateH]

Looks like OP already chose a display, but a note for anyone interested in the Dell 24" 2160P panels- looks like they just released a new model, the P2415Q. The specs are identical to the UP2414Q that I own except for 99% sRGB instead of 99% Adobe RGB, but the price is now under 500$. I would imagine this is the version with the fixed firmware, re-released under a new name to distance it's self from the messed up model.

 

[Khalai]

The more i study the matter, the more it gets complicated. ;D

https://fstoppers.com/pictures/adobergb-vs-srgb-3167

http://help.smugmug.com/customer/portal/articles/93362-what-colorspace-should-my-files-be-in-

It seems like using AdobeRGB would make the workflow a little more cumbersome in case one wants to share photos online. Is there an obvious difference between prints based on sRGB and AdobeRGB? Since i'm not going to print that often, it needs to be worthwhile for me to invest money an time into the technology.

The problem with 'studying' things like this from places like that is that they are not formally educated and often talk a lot of rubbish.

Do you shoot RAW or jpeg?

If you shoot RAW it doesn't matter which colour space you assign in your camera because the RAW file doesn't honour either, if you then carry on and work in Adobe Lightroom it works in an even bigger colour space that contains all the information your camera captured, you don't assign a colour space until you actually export the image and assigning whatever colour space you want is no more time consuming or difficult than telling it to be full sized or 1200px.

If you shoot jpeg and are editing and printing from that then it doesn't matter as you have comparatively little editing latitude anyway and you have already thrown away most of the information your camera captured.

Thank you, your explanation gave me a better view on the subject. There's still one thing i can't grasp. If i edit my images in a large color space, and then set the software to export the picture in a narrower color space, how do i know in advance which colors will be "discarded"? Is there an export preview mode like Lightroom 5?

You can use soft-proofing in LR5 to estimate colour loss...

 

[gigabellone]

One last question: do you think that the available colorspace is as relevant for a B/W development workflow as it is for a color development workflow? Can you suggest me a good book on color theory related to photography development?

 

[mackguyver]

One last question: do you think that the available colorspace is as relevant for a B/W development workflow as it is for a color development workflow? Can you suggest me a good book on color theory related to photography development?

There are B&W colorspaces, but they mostly apply to the output device and aren't as relevant. The monitor tech that does make a big difference in B&W is 10/30bit monitors, because it takes the number of shades of gray from 256 (not 50 ) to 1024. That is the topic of a whole other thread, however as it's an expensive route requiring special OS, software, pro graphics card, cable, and monitor. If you search for 30 bit, you should find some existing threads.

As for resources, Andrew Rodney is one of the experts out there: http://www.digitaldog.net/ and it looks like this is the latest greatest book on color management, though I haven't read it:
http://www.amazon.com/Color-Management-Quality-Output-Working/dp/0240821114/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1424787772&sr=8-1&keywords=color+management+photography

 

[wopbv4]

Color management is a difficult subject.

Please read
http://www.imagescience.com.au/pages/The-Digital-Fine-Print-Book.html

Although I am a Mac user, please be aware that Mac OS X (still) does not support 10 bit/color channel!
Mac has been marketing the Retina screens with a lot of success, but for true color management, they can not compete with Eizo or NEC

 

[gigabellone]

I finally made up my mind.
I'll get the Eizo CS240 and a good color calibrator, the i1Display Pro. Thanks for all the feedback, i'll let you know.

 

[jeffa4444]

To my mind the best monitor is also a computer and that is the Apple iMac 27" 5K, calibrated with the X-Rite i1 Pro (you can also use this for a laptop, iPad or iPhone) and left connected to constantly check the ambient lighting is the best combination.

 

[DominoDude]

I've come to understand that NEC has released a new Reference monitor --> http://www.nec-display-solutions.com/p/uk/en/news/dp/Products/Shared/News/2015/PressReleases/Products/LCD/SVRef322UHD/SVRef322UHD_uk.xhtml#

Should be "photographer-friendly" (as long as you don't look primarily at the price of it).

 

[tolusina]

Let me offer an analogy to audio, one that you may be easily able to reproduce on your own.
What is pleasing in audio is subjective as are visuals.

If your PC's sound hardware has a graphic equalizer, open it.
Next open a media player with it's own equalizer leaving the software's equalizer off, play a song while tweaking the hardware's equalizer to your taste.
Now, with the hardware equalizer still active and tweaked, tweak some more with the software's equalizer.
I've found there's about nothing I can do to get pleasing results with both equalizers running on top of each other.
- - -
Back to color management for printing.
Calibrate your monitor. Best to use something like the x-rite i1Display Pro that takes ambient light into consideration.
Run the calibration in a darkened room on a well warmed up monitor that's been on at least two hours.
If your monitor has it's own hardware LUTs, use that.
If no hardware LUT, use the calibration software's monitor adjustment.


If your results come out like mine did, colors will be very bright and vivid to the point it almost hurts to look at the brightest and most vivid. LEAVE IT THAT WAY.
Any other adjustments made through the OS will result in the equivalent of using multiple equalizers on audio signals.
Now, when the PC hardware and software send a red signal to the monitor, the monitor will display the truest red it is capable of and the same for all colors, white point, black point.
- - -


Printer can't print the same though, it needs profiling for each and every printer/ink/paper combination to be used.
A device and software such as a Datacolor SpyderPRINT is used to profile.
Profiling software sends a print job to the printer of many many different colored squares, software knows exactly what colors were sent to print.
Profiling hardware is then used to read to the profiling hardware exactly what the printer actually did print for each color, software then creates a difference or error file which is an .icc or .icm file. Name this file distinctly and descriptively.
- - -
Now in your photo editing software, edit using soft proofing or print proofing with the appropriate .icc/.icm file. If your editor has no such option, get one that does.
DO NOT ADD IN THE PRINTER'S DRIVER SOFTWARE, if you do, you're back to the multiple equalizer analogy. Print directly from the photo editor's print function.
- - -
Short version......
Calibrated monitor displays the truest color it is capable of.
Printer profile in photo editor displays what printer can and will do.
Any other tweaks result analogous to multiple equalizers.
- - -
With end to end color management in mind I spent many hours over several months reading most everything I could find, much of what I found left me more confused than when I started.
The best reading on the topic I found was at Keith Cooper's most excellent Northlight Images site, specifically starting from this page......
http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/article_pages/what_is_colour.html
Keith has written so extensively on this and so many other topics I wonder how he finds time to shoot.
Shoot he does and very well, up on a level I aspire to.

 

[mackguyver]

If your results come out like mine did, colors will be very bright and vivid to the point it almost hurts to look at the brightest and most vivid. LEAVE IT THAT WAY.

Are you using a wide gamut monitor in AdobeRGB mode? If so, some manufacturers offer tools to automatically switch back to sRGB for browsing and other tasks. Dell's tool that I use works great, which makes web pages go from NEON back to normal...