More Mentions of a Canon Mirrorless Announcement Ahead of Photokina [CR1]

[Bennymiata]

I've been taking photos since I was 5, and got my first SLR (film) at age 11 in 1966 and now shoot professionally (as I have done for some years). I learned a long time ago that spec sheets don't always equate to making consistantly good photos.
Apart from my fingers getting caught between the mount and the grip, I really don't like the colours that come out of Sonys.
I've done a couple of jobs with Sonys, and I'm usually dissapointed with the results too. Focus accuracy is nowhere near as good or quick as my old 5d3.
I do jobs where the camera is in my hands for 14+ hours at a stretch, and my right hand hurts after half an hour with a Sony A7whatever.
Results and the feel of a camera are far more important to me than a spec sheet, and that's why I choose to shoot with Canons and why the vast majority of pros also use Canons.

 

[jayphotoworks]

You mean like Sony who have crippled their wonderful A73 with an ancient technology LCD and EVF?

Yes but to save that shot with the additional DR that a 5Div or Sony A7 would have over say the 6Dii you’d have to be continually under exposing as routine. That’s the whole issue with this “extra stop of DR saves the day “ argument: it offers nothing at the highlight end for a given “correct” exposure. I’m not saying this is your view, but many who yearn on the internet for greater range assume it’s at both ends. It’s not. It’s all do do with how much info is at the shadow end before it becomes swamped with noise, FPN, banding etc. So if you over expose highlights with a Sony or whatever you’re still screwed. (Actually I find Canon more robust in the highlight fall off but that’s another story).

So once you understand that it becomes clear that in an exposure cock up the chances are that the extra exposure latitude will only help if you were under exposing.

The real issue here is at the end of the day, people that shoot competitive systems that don't have certain features or sensor performance, such as DR latitude, etc. should simply say: "Yes, my chosen system simply does not have the same performance as the competition." They can definitely follow-up that statement to say that those features are not in the mainstream and thus isn't something they would use or that their system of choice has better lens selection, pro support programs or market share adoption. Those are facts. But these days I see time and time again that people say that the competition is an ergonomic mess, is a perpetual beta test, has poor reliability, poor color science and has a feature set mainly comprised of marketing fluff. That however, is simply an opinion or anecdotal at best to downplay why the competition is a poor choice overall.

If you like Canon, accept the compromises Canon's current strategy entails vs the competition. If you don't, switch and accept that you will also leave the things that Canon does very well. Canon's upcoming MILC will probably address a lot of those things the competition does well. Personally, I didn't feel the opportunity cost of staying with Canon was worth waiting 5+ years for them to "catch up", but YMMV.

 

[Mikehit]

I agree with you.
Most comebacks to critics of Canon tie in their personal preferences with a highly flawed conclusion (and click-bait opinion) that because Canon is not doing everything Sony does as well as continuing what it does so well it is therefore *******, all mixed in with a total and wilful ignorance of what it takes to develop these things. And those same people then go out and buy more Canon gear!
Credit to you for taking the plunge - like you, if I am so upset at what a company is doing I go out and buy the gear that satisfies my intentions. I think life is to short for my enjoyment of photography to be marred by feelings of 'betrayal' or 'taken for granted' (words that have been used in this context, quite ridiculously IMO) and I would rather lose money on the sale and get back to enjoying the hobby.

 

[3kramd5]

If you like Canon, accept the compromises Canon's current strategy entails vs the competition. If you don't, switch and accept that you will also leave the things that Canon does very well.

Or just use multiple brands when one is more aligned to a specific goal.

Outside of muscle cars and pickup trucks, I’ve never observed such brand loyalty as exists among ILC enthusiasts.

 

[neuroanatomist]

Or just use multiple brands when one is more aligned to a specific goal.

Exactly. If Nikon hadn’t abandoned the 1 line, I’d likely have bought an AW-1 with a few lenses for underwater use.

 

[ethanz]

Outside of muscle cars and pickup trucks, I’ve never observed such brand loyalty as exists among ILC enthusiasts.

But it's so enjoyable to poke fun at Nikon users

 

[schmidtfilme]

I hope that they have native EF mount. I don't mind larger body. I have a M5 if I need a small camera.

 

[3kramd5]

Exactly. If Nikon hadn’t abandoned the 1 line, I’d likely have bought an AW-1 with a few lenses for underwater use.

I have a Nikon camera because someone was selling a D7000 with lights and an aquatica housing + dome for a good price

 

[JordanRushing]

Canon FF Mirrorless Wishlist (Is this unreasonable?)

1.) 4k at 200mbps codec
- Preferably Apple ProRes codec
- Preferably downres from 5k
- Preferably at 60fps, doubtful though as they'll probably reserve that for c300 upgrades even though the GH5 can do 60fps
2.) 15 stop DR
3.) eye auto focus
4.) EVF with very high refresh rate
5.) ISO Range 50 - 204,800
6.) Silent shooting
7.) At least 10fps shooting
8.) USB-C
9.) IBS (5 - axis)
10.) 40+ Megapixel
11.) 700+ phase-detection
12.) 425+ contrast AF points
13.) 93+% image coverage
14.) Focus peaking
15.) $2,000 USD price mark
16.) EF-X mount to allow me to keep my current full frame lenses without any modifications or buying new lenses

This is more or less an a7iii, this doesn't seem unreasonable right? First post btw ^_^

 

[ethanz]

15.) $2,000 USD price mark

Maybe add 50-100%

 

[JordanRushing]

Maybe add 50-100%

This I'm the most nervous about. If they give all of the above, again more or less an A7iii, is Canon confident in having more or less the same camera (spec wise) for double the price?

 

[Mikehit]

Canon FF Mirrorless Wishlist (Is this unreasonable?)

1.) 4k at 200mbps codec
- Preferably Apple ProRes codec
- Preferably downres from 5k
- Preferably at 60fps, doubtful though as they'll probably reserve that for c300 upgrades even though the GH5 can do 60fps
2.) 15 stop DR
3.) eye auto focus
4.) EVF with very high refresh rate
5.) ISO Range 50 - 204,800
6.) Silent shooting
7.) At least 10fps shooting
8.) USB-C
9.) IBS (5 - axis)
10.) 40+ Megapixel
11.) 700+ phase-detection
12.) 425+ contrast AF points
13.) 93+% image coverage
14.) Focus peaking
15.) $2,000 USD price mark
16.) EF-X mount to allow me to keep my current full frame lenses without any modifications or buying new lenses

This is more or less an a7iii, this doesn't seem unreasonable right? First post btw ^_^

As a wishlist it is fine.
But it is way higher than I expect considering what we have seen for Canon developments/patents and comments from Canon about why they did what they did in previous models. A lot of what you list is dependent on processor capacity and one thing Sony has a clear lead in processor capacity to manage high data volumes. For example, on release of the 5DIV one Canon exec commented they had a large batch of chips they needed to clear (which suggested it limited their options including regards video). Also Canons design philosophy and the fact they don't need to challenge SOny on every level:

1.) 4k at 200mbps codec
- Preferably Apple ProRes codec - doubtful. Canon's lack of progress in video suggests to me they will stay with 'good enough' codecs.
- Preferably downres from 5k - unlikely as Canon do not seem to have access to processors capable of this
- Preferably at 60fps, doubtful though as they'll probably reserve that for c300 upgrades even though the GH5 can do 60fps
2.) 15 stop DR - They have shown no sensor capable of getting to this and I am not sure it is high on their priorities nor needed. Likely an adapted 5DIV sensor.
3.) eye auto focus
4.) EVF with very high refresh rate
5.) ISO Range 50 - 204,800 this will depend on the sensor tech (see (2)) - Canon won't do it if it only there for bragging rights
6.) Silent shooting
7.) At least 10fps shooting possible. But with electronic shutter offering higher it will not be high on their priorities (even their 5DIV is only 7 fps).Likely 5-6 fps
8.) USB-C
9.) IBS (5 - axis) - highly unlikely. However they may offer decent faux-IBIS where the sensor is oversized and the image is 'tracked' as shake moves it around the sensor (I believe they use this in their video)
10.) 40+ Megapixel unlikely. 30MP?
11.) 700+ phase-detection Unlikely
12.) 425+ contrast AF points Does any other Canon model offer anywhere near this?
13.) 93+% image coverage
14.) Focus peaking
15.) $2,000 USD price mark dream on....
16.) EF-X mount to allow me to keep my current full frame lenses without any modifications or buying new lenses

 

[Isaacheus]

As a wishlist it is fine.
But it is way higher than I expect considering what we have seen for Canon developments/patents and comments from Canon about why they did what they did in previous models. A lot of what you list is dependent on processor capacity and one thing Sony has a clear lead in processor capacity to manage high data volumes. For example, on release of the 5DIV one Canon exec commented they had a large batch of chips they needed to clear (which suggested it limited their options including regards video). Also Canons design philosophy and the fact they don't need to challenge SOny on every level:

Yeah, totally agree, hoping to be wrong and that canon will change their current philosophy with a ff mirrorless release

1.) 4k at 200mbps codec
- Preferably Apple ProRes codec - doubtful. Canon's lack of progress in video suggests to me they will stay with 'good enough' codecs. - I'd expect something similar to the m50, plus mjpeg, with clog.
- Preferably downres from 5k - unlikely as Canon do not seem to have access to processors capable of this. Agreed,considering they haven't managed a full frame read out yet
- Preferably at 60fps, doubtful though as they'll probably reserve that for c300 upgrades even though the GH5 can do 60fps - Unlikely, no one has a full frame 60fps 4k option yet? Not sure canon will be rushing to lead this, given recent releases
2.) 15 stop DR - They have shown no sensor capable of getting to this and I am not sure it is high on their priorities nor needed. Likely an adapted 5DIV sensor. - Canon might be able to pull this off with a bit of computational magic, using the dual pixel readouts?
3.) eye auto focus
4.) EVF with very high refresh rate
5.) ISO Range 50 - 204,800 this will depend on the sensor tech (see (2)) - Canon won't do it if it only there for bragging rights
6.) Silent shooting
7.) At least 10fps shooting possible. But with electronic shutter offering higher it will not be high on their priorities (even their 5DIV is only 7 fps).Likely 5-6 fps- I'm expecting higher than this, 8-10 would be my pick
8.) USB-C
9.) IBS (5 - axis) - highly unlikely. However they may offer decent faux-IBIS where the sensor is oversized and the image is 'tracked' as shake moves it around the sensor (I believe they use this in their video) - the current method is to crop into the image I think, which reduces quality as far as I can tell - I'm under the impression they don't up the resolution area to compensate. Agree with mechanical ibis being unlikely
10.) 40+ Megapixel unlikely. 30MP?
11.) 700+ phase-detection Unlikely - does dpaf work quite the same way as on-sensor phase detect for the number of af points? I think this would be a potential strength for canon here, they could in theory surpass this, if my understanding is correct
12.) 425+ contrast AF points Does any other Canon model offer anywhere near this?
13.) 93+% image coverage- they're pretty close to this already with the 5dmk4 dpaf, so I'd be expecting something close to this
14.) Focus peaking - hopefully, along with zebras, but they have been reluctant to do so previously
15.) $2,000 USD price mark dream on....I can't see canon releasing a camera with these specs for any change for 3500, and even then it'd be missing a number of above points, given current canon dslr pricing
16.) EF-X mount to allow me to keep my current full frame lenses without any modifications or buying new lenses

 

[JordanRushing]

Alright so then follow up. If Canon's new latest and greatest Mirrorless came out in October (and you're in the market for a new mirrorless, coming from a dslr), and it was lower in specs than say the a7iii, but cost more than the a7iii, would you still choose the Canon ML over the Sony? Only benefit I can personally see is Canon's customer service. If I'm missing something else, please point it out to me.

I'm just curious as to why someone would stay with something that costs more and at least spec sheet wise, isn't as good, except for brand loyalty and cs?

 

[ethanz]

I'm just curious as to why someone would stay with something that costs more and at least spec sheet wise, isn't as good, except for brand loyalty and cs?

There are threads upon threads about this. Sometimes specs aren't the end all be all, to most reasonable people.

 

[Mikehit]

Alright so then follow up. If Canon's new latest and greatest Mirrorless came out in October (and you're in the market for a new mirrorless, coming from a dslr), and it was lower in specs than say the a7iii, but cost more than the a7iii, would you still choose the Canon ML over the Sony? Only benefit I can personally see is Canon's customer service. If I'm missing something else, please point it out to me.

I'm just curious as to why someone would stay with something that costs more and at least spec sheet wise, isn't as good, except for brand loyalty and cs?

Forget spec-sheet willy-waving and list the advantages that mirrorless offers by which I mean things mirrorless does that DSLR cannot such as WYSIWYG EVF, maybe focus peaking and zebras then put it with a FF sensor and Canon ergonomics. That is what will sell for this first iteration.
Too many people talk as if going mirrorless is the only advance that can be made and then attribute it to Sony whereas very little of what they do was actually developed by Sony.

 

[neuroanatomist]

I'm just curious as to why someone would stay with something that costs more and at least spec sheet wise, isn't as good, except for brand loyalty and cs?

For some people (like you, apparently) a camera's list of specifications is more important than usability, ergonomics, diversity of system components, reliability, long term product support, etc.

Most people feel differently, although you wouldn't know that if you only consider forum participants.

 

[BillB]

Alright so then follow up. If Canon's new latest and greatest Mirrorless came out in October (and you're in the market for a new mirrorless, coming from a dslr), and it was lower in specs than say the a7iii, but cost more than the a7iii, would you still choose the Canon ML over the Sony? Only benefit I can personally see is Canon's customer service. If I'm missing something else, please point it out to me.

I'm just curious as to why someone would stay with something that costs more and at least spec sheet wise, isn't as good, except for brand loyalty and cs?

Native EF lenses, the Canon touchscreen user interface, especially touchscreen focussing, and Canon support capabilities might all be factors, especially if other specs are "good enough". How many of the Sony specs have any practical value depends on what the individual photographer wants to do. Pretty much anybody buying a fullframe mirrorless is buying up from something. At the level we are talking about, almost any camera is overkill for most needs at the performance spec level, and performance specs are just magic numbers with little practical significance. To switch to Sony would most likely mean buying lenses, so that would be part of the cost package as well.

At this point, a lot more people have 6Ds and 5Ds than own Sony's, so the burden is really on Sony to demonstrate the value package to get people to switch. Up until now the magic numbers haven't been all that successful a marketing strategy. With the A7III, SONY seems to be emphasizing price, but that is still more expensive than standing pat with what you have, which is a choice that most people in this market have.

 

[Michael Clark]

I mean this as a genuine question as I think I've missed something, are you meaning you shouldnt/shouldn't have to play with shadows if you get correct exposure?

"Playing with shadows" shouldn't require 5+ stops of adjustment if you shot it/lit it correctly. Part of being a photographer, as opposed to a camera holder, is recognizing when a scene is appropriate for the equipment you're using and the display medium you intend to use.

It's a pretty large leap to go from equating "shoot it right to start with and don't underexpose by 4-5 stops" to "you shouldn't ever need to 'play around with the shadows."

It's also a pretty large leap to say that a camera that can "only" recover 4 stops in the shadows is "out of date garbage" but a camera that can recover 6 stops in the shadows is the "greatest thing since sliced bread."

 

[Michael Clark]

Thats why Ansel Adams never dodged or burned. He as a master never had to.

I doubt Ansel ever dodged/burned by 5+ stops because he missed exposure. But he wasn't perfect. One only has to look at the evolution of the prints he created of 'Moonrise, Hernandez, NM' to see that. He shot it in 1941. The definitive prints weren't made until the mid 1960s. In interviews he practically admitted he was so rushed to get the shot before the sun set too low, couldn't find his light meter, and missed exposure a bit. That's what drove him to experiment so much to get the print he wanted.

One must also remember that the film he was using did not have the DR of even the "crappy" Canon 5D Mark IV or 6D Mark II.