My Experience with a 4K Computer Monitor

[LDS]

At about half the cost of the future Mac.

Plus the expense of replacing your software if it doesn't have a Windows counterpart, or if it isn't free. Maybe you'll have to replace other PCs also. Plus the time spent to retrain yourself on a different system and workflow

I've also heard you can drop all your Canon gear and switch to those outstanding Sony or Nikon cameras and lenses....

You need very compelling reason to switch systems, especially when your business is built on them.

 

[YuengLinger]

At about half the cost of the future Mac.

Plus the expense of replacing your software if it doesn't have a Windows counterpart, or if it isn't free. Maybe you'll have to replace other PCs also. Plus the time spent to retrain yourself on a different system and workflow

I've also heard you can drop all your Canon gear and switch to those outstanding Sony or Nikon cameras and lenses....

You need very compelling reason to switch systems, especially when your business is built on them.

Most photo and video editing works on either platform. No significant learning curve there. Was Keith talking about a whole office?

You are creating specious scenarios. Why? You're upset about a suggestion that could result in saving time and money?

Does everything have to be a challenge to brand loyalty?

 

[keithcooper]

At about half the cost of the future Mac.

Plus the expense of replacing your software if it doesn't have a Windows counterpart, or if it isn't free. Maybe you'll have to replace other PCs also. Plus the time spent to retrain yourself on a different system and workflow

I've also heard you can drop all your Canon gear and switch to those outstanding Sony or Nikon cameras and lenses....

You need very compelling reason to switch systems, especially when your business is built on them.

Most photo and video editing works on either platform. No significant learning curve there. Was Keith talking about a whole office?

You are creating specious scenarios. Why? You're upset about a suggestion that could result in saving time and money?

Does everything have to be a challenge to brand loyalty?

Actually a lot of what was said makes excellent sense with respect to my business - that's the one that earns me a living.

Yes, every desktop/laptop we have here is a Mac of some variety, so yes, for us the power/cost benefit of a PC is a small part of the equation, when system performance is not currently a limitation for any of our work (I'll not even think about the grief I'd get trying to take Karen's Macs from her (marketing director and wife - so opinions really do matter)

My main reason for mentioning the platform at all was that whilst I've reviewed a number of BenQ monitors, they were all tested on Macs, which is a relevant thing for some questions about display functionality and usability.

I'm not one for specific brand affiliations - both Epson -and- Canon send me printers, and the prime reason for choosing a Canon DSLR (1Ds) when I turned pro was lens choice, and that Nikon were telling the world that 'full frame' didn't matter... I'd happily review Nikon/Sony gear in my lens reviews, but can't afford a D850 just for a spot of lens testing and Sony's excellent kit will remain a curiosity to me unless I can convince their marketing department that they should reach out a bit wider ;-)

 

[kphoto99]

Plus the time spent to retrain yourself on a different system and workflow

The learning curve to go from Win7 to Win10 is steeper then going to MacOS, what is you point?

 

[YuengLinger]

If a business is built on an eco-system of software and hardware, of course it makes sense to patiently wait for the favored brand to make the desired product. It would be too disruptive to begin gradually replacing equipment at half the price now, and, as mentioned, feelings of entrenchment are involved too.

Understandable!

 

[LDS]

Plus the time spent to retrain yourself on a different system and workflow

The learning curve to go from Win7 to Win10 is steeper then going to MacOS, what is you point?

Beside the fact that what you say is not true, you believe the OS is the only issue. But it's everything that runs atop the OS that could become an issue.

Nobody just uses an OS. People use applications. Some are available on both platforms, others are not. Some works in different ways, or have different platform support or features. Some let you use the same licenses across platforms, others don't. You may have refined your business workflow around some applications and tools, and you would need to retest and refine again if you change.

Unless I knew exactly what someone uses, and what needs have to fulfill, I would be very cautious to tell him or her to switch to another software platform or photo equipment. There could be a lot of 'hidden costs'. Switching has to be a careful decision weighting the whole pros and cons, not just some pieces of hardware costs.

I do use several version of Windows and several Linux distros because of my job, I've a first hand experience of what it means. My personal systems are designed around the software and devices I need to use, not vice-versa.

Just like my photo gear is designed around the images I want to take, the lenses to achieve such result and then a body able to deliver the quality the lenses can reach. Owning the coolest camera with the 'top specs', or the less expensive one, is not what I need.

 

[YuengLinger]

As for the 4k monitor thread, which is tangled up in here somewhere, I can say that Portraiture and Alien Skin work fine. On1, however, won't scale properly to 150%. (For me, on a 32" monitor, 125% is too small for Lightroom.) The On1 interface starts to fragment, and the adjustment brush generates a "floating" pixel distortion. Scale it back to 125% and its fine.

On1 is aware of the issue and working on it.

 

[LDS]

As for the 4k monitor thread, which is tangled up in here somewhere, I can say that Portraiture and Alien Skin work fine. On1, however, won't scale properly to 150%. (For me, on a 32" monitor, 125% is too small for Lightroom.) The On1 interface starts to fragment, and the adjustment brush generates a "floating" pixel distortion. Scale it back to 125% and its fine.

On which OS? One of the issues with this kind of applications is they need to handle and scale differently the UI controls, and the "working area". I mean, if I set an image to 1:1 I expect an image pixel is rendered with a single monitor pixel regardless of the DPI, because it's the only way no resample algorithm is being used (albeit with very high DPI it can make assessing an image difficult as well).

Unluckily OS scaling may not know it, and scale everything - that's why applications needs to be updated to perform scaling where and when needed.

Alien Skin introduced High DPI support in March, with some limitations on multiple monitor systems:

https://support.alienskin.com/hc/en-us/articles/115000051973-Windows-Ultra-High-Resolution-4K-Support

 

[YuengLinger]

As for the 4k monitor thread, which is tangled up in here somewhere, I can say that Portraiture and Alien Skin work fine. On1, however, won't scale properly to 150%. (For me, on a 32" monitor, 125% is too small for Lightroom.) The On1 interface starts to fragment, and the adjustment brush generates a "floating" pixel distortion. Scale it back to 125% and its fine.

On which OS? One of the issues with this kind of applications is they need to handle and scale differently the UI controls, and the "working area". I mean, if I set an image to 1:1 I expect an image pixel is rendered with a single monitor pixel regardless of the DPI, because it's the only way no resample algorithm is being used (albeit with very high DPI it can make assessing an image difficult as well).

Unluckily OS scaling may not know it, and scale everything - that's why applications needs to be updated to perform scaling where and when needed.

Alien Skin introduced High DPI support in March, with some limitations on multiple monitor systems:

https://support.alienskin.com/hc/en-us/articles/115000051973-Windows-Ultra-High-Resolution-4K-Support

Windows 10, version 1709.

 

[RGF]

Added a 4K NEC display to my MacPro. Plug, Play. End of story. Laugh at apple all you want, but it actually works. The only thing I am doing, is using reading glasses to correct for my astigmatism. Not the display's fault, but my anatomy.

Also have MacPro. Very easy to use and add a new monitor. I have not yet added a 4K monitor, want to see what the new version of the MacPro looks like before I decide. I am very very very happy with my Nec Spectraview monitors.

 

[mb66energy]

3 years ago I bought a 40" UHD TV - UHD because I do not like to see pixels + for dual use scenarios like additional monitor for some editing + only 50 € more expensive compared to HD version.

Sizewise I really like that thing and a viewing distance of 70cm is optimal for detail size / non-disturbing pixel size, tested with images from an USB stick. But this display - while providing very good color reproduction - suffers from the color variation under different angles.

I had not taken efforts organize a 4k capable PC - because I will wait for OLED tech trickling down to PC monitors and the prices not only trickling down. And a curved display might provide additional "visual comfort". Just dreaming about a flexible display that can be curved for your needs ...

 

[keithcooper]

... a curved display might provide additional "visual comfort". Just dreaming about a flexible display that can be curved for your needs ...

Curved display?
Just what I don't need for my architectural photography and occasional lens testing ;-)

 

[mb66energy]

... a curved display might provide additional "visual comfort". Just dreaming about a ...flexible display that can be curved for your needs

Curved display?
Just what I don't need for my architectural photography and occasional lens testing ;-)

Use Hundertwasser houses as subject and monitor curvature isn't primary concern

I just made my ASUS Tinker board running with my 40" 4k TV at 4k and 24 Hz, my first 4k capable computer. This simple Raspberry Pi like device is a little bit on the slow side for 4k but maybe a perfect image viewing machine + maybe interesting for editing/sorting vast amounts of files/data.

A flat screen of this size (~0.9m wide) is more like a small table where you have to move your head/body to view all the documents. Resolution is fine for a distance of 60cm. Here a curved display might help to reduce your motion just to some rotation around my vertical axis.
But you are right: for (architecture) photography it is hell to use some non-flat display technology.

 

[kaihp]

... a curved display might provide additional "visual comfort". Just dreaming about a ...flexible display that can be curved for your needs

Curved display?
Just what I don't need for my architectural photography and occasional lens testing ;-)

Use Hundertwasser houses as subject and monitor curvature isn't primary concern

I just made my ASUS Tinker board running with my 40" 4k TV at 4k and 24 Hz, my first 4k capable computer. This simple Raspberry Pi like device is a little bit on the slow side for 4k but maybe a perfect image viewing machine + maybe interesting for editing/sorting vast amounts of files/data.

I've had a Pi3 running 4K to my UHD TV - works nice. Unfortunately the CPU isn't fast enough to decode the live videostream (flash/HTML5) from motogp.com, so I can't use it as a dedicated streamer box

 

[Mt Spokane Photography]

... a curved display might provide additional "visual comfort". Just dreaming about a flexible display that can be curved for your needs ...

Curved display?
Just what I don't need for my architectural photography and occasional lens testing ;-)

There actually are lots of curved displays for PC's, Costco even sells them. They are positioned for gamers. I can't begin to imagine the issues for photography that a curved monitor would introduce.

With OLED monitor, the issue with them is burn-in and high power consumption. Its not a matter of trickle down, OLED technology is not ready for the typical PC user. If I had one, the Canon Rumors Logo would be burned in in just a week

Here is a link to the Dell 30 inch curved OLED monitor recently introduced and recently discontinued.

http://www.dell.com/en-us/shop/accessories/apd/210-aiei

https://www.pcgamesn.com/dell-kills-4k-oled-monitor

 

[mb66energy]

... a curved display might provide additional "visual comfort". Just dreaming about a flexible display that can be curved for your needs ...

Curved display?
Just what I don't need for my architectural photography and occasional lens testing ;-)

There actually are lots of curved displays for PC's, Costco even sells them. They are positioned for gamers. I can't begin to imagine the issues for photography that a curved monitor would introduce.

With OLED monitor, the issue with them is burn-in and high power consumption. Its not a matter of trickle down, OLED technology is not ready for the typical PC user. If I had one, the Canon Rumors Logo would be burned in in just a week

Here is a link to the Dell 30 inch curved OLED monitor recently introduced and recently discontinued.

http://www.dell.com/en-us/shop/accessories/apd/210-aiei

https://www.pcgamesn.com/dell-kills-4k-oled-monitor

Thanks for the info about Dells 30 inch OLED monitor. Maybe burn in and high power consumption are a fact at the moment. But burn in and high power consumption are technical problems.

In theory a conventional TFT (= everything which is not CRT and not OLED) wastes at least 50% of the light produced by the back light. The subpixels filter 30-40% of white light and guiding the light from the edge to the pixels is another 20% loss. A full white pixel is the best case, a pure red pixel closes blue and green and only 10% of the initial light are used.

Direct LED pixels use 100% of the light they produce. So their efficiency should be ~3 times higher in normal use scenarios. Maybe OLEDs sport substantially lower efficiencies compared to semiconductor LEDs which might be resolvable. Burn in was a result of lifetimes of 100 cycles of lab experiments with OLED displays 15 years ago. Shurely they increased the lifetime but maybe it is not enough for different use scenarios ...

Just a thought about OLED TVs: Maybe the very expensive OLED displays are used by people who have to work 80 hours per week to get their high income. They use their OLED TV only 2 hours per week which is far below burn in / reduced lifetime issues

 

[Mt Spokane Photography]

... a curved display might provide additional "visual comfort". Just dreaming about a flexible display that can be curved for your needs ...

Curved display?
Just what I don't need for my architectural photography and occasional lens testing ;-)

There actually are lots of curved displays for PC's, Costco even sells them. They are positioned for gamers. I can't begin to imagine the issues for photography that a curved monitor would introduce.

With OLED monitor, the issue with them is burn-in and high power consumption. Its not a matter of trickle down, OLED technology is not ready for the typical PC user. If I had one, the Canon Rumors Logo would be burned in in just a week

Here is a link to the Dell 30 inch curved OLED monitor recently introduced and recently discontinued.

http://www.dell.com/en-us/shop/accessories/apd/210-aiei

https://www.pcgamesn.com/dell-kills-4k-oled-monitor

Thanks for the info about Dells 30 inch OLED monitor. Maybe burn in and high power consumption are a fact at the moment. But burn in and high power consumption are technical problems.

In theory a conventional TFT (= everything which is not CRT and not OLED) wastes at least 50% of the light produced by the back light. The subpixels filter 30-40% of white light and guiding the light from the edge to the pixels is another 20% loss. A full white pixel is the best case, a pure red pixel closes blue and green and only 10% of the initial light are used.

Direct LED pixels use 100% of the light they produce. So their efficiency should be ~3 times higher in normal use scenarios. Maybe OLEDs sport substantially lower efficiencies compared to semiconductor LEDs which might be resolvable. Burn in was a result of lifetimes of 100 cycles of lab experiments with OLED displays 15 years ago. Shurely they increased the lifetime but maybe it is not enough for different use scenarios ...

Just a thought about OLED TVs: Maybe the very expensive OLED displays are used by people who have to work 80 hours per week to get their high income. They use their OLED TV only 2 hours per week which is far below burn in / reduced lifetime issues

The issue with PC monitors is that the white pixels are used heavily. If you only used it for games where there is a darker screen and lots of motion, burn in would not be a issue, and power use would be less.

The Apple iPhone X uses OLED's and there were lots of reports of buyers receiving phones with burned in screens, or the screens burning in in a week. Apple promised to fix or replace them, but it makes me wonder about the long term. BTW, Samsung makes thse panels, not LG.

Certainly, the issue with burn in of OLED's is technology based, Samsung planned to to produce OLED TV panels and gave up. They had been researching and pumping money into them for many years. Now that OLED's are coming on line, and Chinese companies are planning to jump in, Samsung is going to build a multi-billion dollar OLED factory, primarily for phones, maybe tablets. They have renamed their LED TV's as QLED, a lame attempt to fool buyers into believing that they are getting OLED TV's. There has been a lot of head to head comparisons and, so far, QLED panels are not as good as OLED as far as image quality, contrast ratio, all the important parameters.

From what I can tell, LG OLED TV sets have really been popular among high end buyers.


LG did not give up, and have managed to produce the panels in production quantities, and prices are coming down, so if they sell well, then Samsung may yet enter the market such that there is competition.

Dell does sell a laptop with OLED screen, so it will be interesting to see how well it does. I suspect its a LG Panel.

 

[martti]

Re: My Experience with a 4K Computer Monitor ref Ken Rockwell

This is how Ken Rockwell handled the problems he had with his 4K Samsung and his Mac Pro.

http://www.kenrockwell.com/tech/2017-10.htm#05





he is the Man! 8)

 

[YuengLinger]

Update. :-\

Earlier in this thread I was enthusiastic about my BenQ PD3200U. It has been flashing black, momentarily scrambling pixels, two or three times and hour. I've narrowed it down, for sure it's the monitor. (Tried it on another PC with a different GPU, same issue; also tried other monitors on the original PC, no flashing.)

And I've narrowed down what seems to be triggering the problem. If my office is 74 deg F or warmer, I get more frequent flashing. When cooler, the flashing goes down to only once an hour or every 90 minutes. So, my theory is, a component was out of spec and even at low temps is already beginning to fail. Unfortunately this seems to be popping up lately with this model for other customers too.

And I've learned, while researching the issue, that most every 32 inch 4k made from 2014 - 2017 used the same Sharp panels. Only now are customers going to see some variety, with 2018 being a year of tech update for 4k monitors.

I did wonder why Samsung and other bigger companies seemed such small players in the higher end monitor market. Maybe the tech wasn't stable enough for profitable production? Who knows, but it seems that a 32 inch monitor that sells for $1000 USD should be able to make money--if a 65 inch TV that costs under that can.

In any event, I'll probably just get a refund for my BenQ and see if we get some new offerings this year, as predicted by various tech sites.

 

[Mt Spokane Photography]

Update. :-\

Earlier in this thread I was enthusiastic about my BenQ PD3200U. It has been flashing black, momentarily scrambling pixels, two or three times and hour. I've narrowed it down, for sure it's the monitor. (Tried it on another PC with a different GPU, same issue; also tried other monitors on the original PC, no flashing.)

And I've narrowed down what seems to be triggering the problem. If my office is 74 deg F or warmer, I get more frequent flashing. When cooler, the flashing goes down to only once an hour or every 90 minutes. So, my theory is, a component was out of spec and even at low temps is already beginning to fail. Unfortunately this seems to be popping up lately with this model for other customers too.

And I've learned, while researching the issue, that most every 32 inch 4k made from 2014 - 2017 used the same Sharp panels. Only now are customers going to see some variety, with 2018 being a year of tech update for 4k monitors.

I did wonder why Samsung and other bigger companies seemed such small players in the higher end monitor market. Maybe the tech wasn't stable enough for profitable production? Who knows, but it seems that a 32 inch monitor that sells for $1000 USD should be able to make money--if a 65 inch TV that costs under that can.

In any event, I'll probably just get a refund for my BenQ and see if we get some new offerings this year, as predicted by various tech sites.

Sorry to hear of your issue. Samsung is a lot like Canon, they have a factory tuned to put out vast quantities of monitors and panels, and leave the smaller market for speciality items to those who have their business processes set up to handle them. They may actually be producing panels for some of those companies.

Sharp was basically going out of business and was purchased by Chinese Company Foxconn, a very ruthless company at cutting costs and pulling shenanigans on its own business partners. They assemble iPhones for Apple. So, the panel could be the result of a failing company not being able to maintain quality control, or a new owner slashing costs further. To further complicate things, the LCD and OLED panel makers sometimes purchase panels from each other to make up for shortages or production issues. You don't know for sure what you may get.