New APS-C Camera in February?

[traveller]

Isn't one of the trade offs with CMOS based sensors the fact they require a higher proportion of their surface area to be dedicated to control and readout circuitry than with CCDs? With an ideal sensor (one with which each 'sensel' can gather light from 100% of its area) four smaller 'sensels' would gather exactly the same amount of light as one larger one. At a given level of technology, can we assume that the circuitry required by a CMOS chip, whether it is (for example) 12MP or 24MP is roughly the same? If one accepts this and Meh's value of only 50% of each 'sensel' dedicated to gathering light, then four smaller 'sensels' will not be gathering the same amount of light as one larger 'sensel' because of the space wasted by the associated circuitry.

DISCLAIMER: I present this only as a though experiment, I have no idea about the exact values involved as I have no background in the imaging electronics industry. If someone with greater technical knowledge can provide with correct values, or refute the assumptions made then I would welcome the enlightenment.

 

[dr croubie]

Hmmm, looks like the debate's started again...

But yeah, what I was getting at was the options for the 7D2, regardless of the physics/maths, or what's possible:
- Lower MP, but higher low-noise and IQ. Look at the difference between the 50D and 7D (kodak patches about 1/5 down) at ISO 3200 and higher. That was the difference just from gapless microlenses. Now improve that much again (about a stop) and you're at 5Dmk2 noise-levels. Maybe they need to drop to 15MP to do it, to get larger photosites. Keep all the features of the current 7D. That body would be priced about the same as the current 7D. As a current 7D-owner, that's not enough of an upgrade to me.

- Keep 18MP, but with larger photosites. Maybe you get half a stop extra usable ISO (obviously less than if the MP were dropped). Again, with the same features as currently, it's not going to make me upgrade.

- Keep the same size photosites as the current 7D (or near enough so the same ISO looks exactly the same between the new/old), but pack them closer together, into a 24-30MP body. Keep the same featues as current 7D, and the price might go up to halfway between 7D/5D2 prices. I'd consider this upgrade.

- Or a mixture of the last two. Make photosites larger, better (regardless how much) iso-performance, and pack them closer together to 21-24MP. That's probably the most worthy-upgrade from a current 7D, and the most likely to get me interested (although I can't speak for other 7D owners).

- Or the boring upgrade, more MP, say 25-30, but worse iso-performance than the current 7D. Given what happened from 1Ds3 to 1DX, I don't think this is likely. But if it happened, would you buy one? I'm still undecided on that one.


At the moment, the current 7D is a nice upgrade from every other aps-c body (better sensor than 50D, better features than 60/550/600D), unless you like the flip-screen. I don't, maybe you do (but I do know that a flip-screen is harder to waterproof, and more easily breakable). As for other features, I use AFMA and love it. Since I got my speedlite, i've used more than half the shots with the wireless trigger (even though I got a 10m-long cord too, wireless is easier). The FPS is why i got it in the first place. Waterproofing has come in handy, and will in the future moreso.

I don't actually know what else they could add to or change from the current 7D to make it a worthwhile upgrade for current 7D-users, besides the sensor. 45-pt AF would be nice, but i won't pay more than 5% extra for it. It's waterproof "enough". I don't like gripped bodies, my arm gets tired enough (and for those who do like them, buy a BG). The moved DOF-buttons on the 1DX look very nice, but I see that happening to every body in future, it's not exactly a "feature" worth extra money. Ethernet doesn't exactly cream my pants, I might use it if it came on my next body, if not I won't miss it. GPS and WiFi are add-on features for extra money on the 1DX, that's a pretty clear sign that they will not be built into future lower bodies (although they may add the plugs for it).
So for the rest of you who actually own a 7D now, what would actually make you buy a newer model, if the sensor is the same? (take into account you'd lose about 15% purchase-price selling old-body and buying new one). And if the sensor is a new one (more than likely), what would you prefer from my options above?

 

[akiskev]

And if the sensor is a new one (more than likely), what would you prefer from my options above?

I'd prefer better dynamic range (even slightly better) and better signal to noise ratio at all isos!

 

[Meh]

@hjulenissen

See now there you go... I made a simple statement of fact that SNR goes up with signal level and that is too simplistic and you want to get into "image quality" which I specifically wanted to avoid because here we go. I call a NR reduction algorithm "clever mathematics" but you want to say it's not "clever mathematics"... whether it's clever or not clever is a matter of opinion I guess but I think it's at least a little bit clever. Can you give me that one?

You're obviously knowledgeable about this topic. Me too. Should we compare "credentials"? Honestly, I don't want to offend you or anyone else. Someone was offended because I got smited... YES! Probably for starting this so I may deserve it :-[

Many of your points are technically sound. Sure, counting photons in 4 bins and adding vs. counting in 1 bin is the same total number of photons. But there will be less signal (fill factor <1) and more shot noise and read noise and therefore lower SNR and DR and you've agreed the accuracy of counting those photons is not as accurate if only as a technical matter. If the SNR is high enough across the entire image then the whole argument is moot but if not you can go ahead and apply a NR algorithm to try and improve the image quality.

I do agree that the more data you have to work with the better NR algorithms will work. The question would be where is the sweetspot above which the additional noise due to smaller pixels outpaces the improved application of the NR algorithm.

And why is the DR in the Nikon D7000 16MP sensor (Sony) so high? If you look up the full-well capacity on sensorgen.info (ooops, that could be another debate) you will see it's very high... probably because they improved the fill factor (i.e. a larger photosite in each pixel, the size of the photosite matters). They also got the noise down in that sensor. Result = large DR of 14. Now look at the Sony A77 (24MP) presumably using at least the same tech as the D7000 sensor and you'll see the full-well is much lower and therefore the DR is only 12.2 so the evidence suggests again that photosite size matters at least to the technical characteristics (again I'm trying to leave "image quality" alone).

Anyway, I apologize to everyone, their families, their friends, and the whole world for starting this.

-1 to myself

 

[unfocused]

When the purchasing manager for a news corporation pops their head up and says the 1DX is useless because it only has 18MP and they'll use the 5D3 with 50MP for all of their journalists, then I'll listen. But I doubt that's going to happen.

I agree with your points but not sure your example is the best. Not to quibble too much, but news organizations are all about the reproduction and whether it is in a magazine, a newspaper or on a website, they are going to be throwing away megapixels and resolution even with an 18mp sensor.

But, despite my quibbling, I certainly agree with your major points. The resolution of the 1DX will likely have little or no bearing on future generations of the 5D, 7D or other DSLRs. In fact, I think Canon has thrown us such a curve with both the 1DX and its new Cinema line that it's pretty much impossible to guess what direction they will go next.

It's clear to me that while many say Canon WILL do this or that, or that they MUST offer something because of what a competitor offers, Canon is responding with a big: "Says Who?"

They are demonstrating the agility and innovative thinking that has taken them to the top of their industry. I'm just hoping the ride will be as exciting as it appears.

 

[psycho5]

The 1DX was designed and built for professional photographers and they have very specific needs that don't necessarily have anything to do with hobbyists, amateurs, advanced amateurs or just the general public.

In a perfect world Canon would market the next 7D for pros and leave the 70D and below to the hobbyists and amateurs. If they did (again in a perfect world) we would see a cropped version of the 1Dx sensor in the next 7D. This is my wish and it would be awesome! I remember when the 7D came out people were raving how it was a mini-1D, why not keep the tradition alive?

 

[Meh]

The 1DX was designed and built for professional photographers and they have very specific needs that don't necessarily have anything to do with hobbyists, amateurs, advanced amateurs or just the general public.

In a perfect world Canon would market the next 7D for pros and leave the 70D and below to the hobbyists and amateurs. If they did (again in a perfect world) we would see a cropped version of the 1Dx sensor in the next 7D. This is my wish and it would be awesome! I remember when the 7D came out people were raving how it was a mini-1D, why not keep the tradition alive?

Not sure about the "marketing to pros" part but I think you will get your wish. It wouldn't take much improvement for a 7D2 to be a mini-1DX.

 

[EYEONE]

That was the difference just from gapless microlenses.

The 50D had gapless microlenses too.

 

[Meh]

So for the rest of you who actually own a 7D now, what would actually make you buy a newer model, if the sensor is the same? (take into account you'd lose about 15% purchase-price selling old-body and buying new one). And if the sensor is a new one (more than likely), what would you prefer from my options above?

Assuming I could sell my 7D and buy a 7D2 for a net cost of only 15% (about C$225), I would upgrade just for the chance to take that new sweetness out of the box! ;D For me, the compelling option from your list would be same 18MP with any improvement in image quality whether that's a little better ISO performance, DR, whatever.

 

[unfocused]

So for the rest of you who actually own a 7D now, what would actually make you buy a newer model, if the sensor is the same? (take into account you'd lose about 15% purchase-price selling old-body and buying new one). And if the sensor is a new one (more than likely), what would you prefer from my options above?

Assuming I could sell my 7D and buy a 7D2 for a net cost of only 15% (about C$225), I would upgrade just for the chance to take that new sweetness out of the box! ;D For me, the compelling option from your list would be same 18MP with any improvement in image quality whether that's a little better ISO performance, DR, whatever.

That pretty much sums it up for me as well.

I don't have a problem with more megapixels, but it wouldn't make it so that I have to have a new model.

I like the infrared trigger, but hate that the onboard flash overheats and shuts down in the middle of shooting, making the trigger useless. I'd like that fixed.

I would like to see an improved autofocus system. People say the 7D is far more sophisticated than the 5D, but frankly it's not always intuitive or simple to use. Just because most focus issues are the result of "user error" doesn't mean they shouldn't try to engineer improvements that will reduce those errors.

Reduced noise, higher ISO and expanded dynamic range are the main criteria.

Actually, this all goes back to something I've said before: Will Canon go for an incremental upgrade and focus on attracting new buyers upgrading from Rebels or will they go for major improvements to entice existing 7D owners to buy the new model?

I really think (and hope) it will be the latter. I think they learned with the 50D that incremental upgrades are risky and I suspect they have figured out that one customer in the hand (existing 7D owners) is better than two customers in the bush (Rebel owners who might or might not upgrade). A major upgrade will attract both markets, but minor changes will have most 7D owners waiting for the Mark III.

 

[jouster]

The 1DX was designed and built for professional photographers and they have very specific needs that don't necessarily have anything to do with hobbyists, amateurs, advanced amateurs or just the general public.

In a perfect world Canon would market the next 7D for pros and leave the 70D and below to the hobbyists and amateurs. If they did (again in a perfect world) we would see a cropped version of the 1Dx sensor in the next 7D. This is my wish and it would be awesome! I remember when the 7D came out people were raving how it was a mini-1D, why not keep the tradition alive?

Why would that represent a perfect world? Why would a cropped version of the 1DX sensor necessitate marketing only to pros?

 

[Rocky]

The 1DX was designed and built for professional photographers and they have very specific needs that don't necessarily have anything to do with hobbyists, amateurs, advanced amateurs or just the general public.

In a perfect world Canon would market the next 7D for pros and leave the 70D and below to the hobbyists and amateurs. If they did (again in a perfect world) we would see a cropped version of the 1Dx sensor in the next 7D. This is my wish and it would be awesome! I remember when the 7D came out people were raving how it was a mini-1D, why not keep the tradition alive?

Why would that represent a perfect world? Why would a cropped version of the 1DX sensor necessitate marketing only to pros?

If Canon make a cropped version (APS-C) of the 1DX sensor, it will only have 6.84 MP. do you think either the 'pro" or Amateur will buy it???
I would like to see canon apply the technology of 1DX sensor on the existing 18MP APS_C and also give us the "low Light" technique ( addition the explosure from 4 adjscent pixels )from the S95 and ends up with a 4.5MP picture. Then we will have the best of both world.

 

[Meh]

The 1DX was designed and built for professional photographers and they have very specific needs that don't necessarily have anything to do with hobbyists, amateurs, advanced amateurs or just the general public.

In a perfect world Canon would market the next 7D for pros and leave the 70D and below to the hobbyists and amateurs. If they did (again in a perfect world) we would see a cropped version of the 1Dx sensor in the next 7D. This is my wish and it would be awesome! I remember when the 7D came out people were raving how it was a mini-1D, why not keep the tradition alive?

Why would that represent a perfect world? Why would a cropped version of the 1DX sensor necessitate marketing only to pros?

If Canon make a cropped version (APS-C) of the 1DX sensor, it will only have 6.84 MP. do you think either the 'pro" or Amateur will buy it???
I would like to see canon apply the technology of 1DX sensor on the existing 18MP APS_C and also give us the "low Light" technique ( addition the explosure from 4 adjscent pixels )from the S95 and ends up with a 4.5MP picture. Then we will have the best of both world.

I took psycho5's comment to mean the latter... apply the latest and greatest sensor tech for a new ~18MP APS-C sensor and I think that could be what we'll see. Totally agree that an APS-C crop of the 1DX sensor with 6.9MP is a non-starter.

 

[wickidwombat]

The 1DX was designed and built for professional photographers and they have very specific needs that don't necessarily have anything to do with hobbyists, amateurs, advanced amateurs or just the general public.

In a perfect world Canon would market the next 7D for pros and leave the 70D and below to the hobbyists and amateurs. If they did (again in a perfect world) we would see a cropped version of the 1Dx sensor in the next 7D. This is my wish and it would be awesome! I remember when the 7D came out people were raving how it was a mini-1D, why not keep the tradition alive?

Why would that represent a perfect world? Why would a cropped version of the 1DX sensor necessitate marketing only to pros?

If Canon make a cropped version (APS-C) of the 1DX sensor, it will only have 6.84 MP. do you think either the 'pro" or Amateur will buy it???
I would like to see canon apply the technology of 1DX sensor on the existing 18MP APS_C and also give us the "low Light" technique ( addition the explosure from 4 adjscent pixels )from the S95 and ends up with a 4.5MP picture. Then we will have the best of both world.

I took psycho5's comment to mean the latter... apply the latest and greatest sensor tech for a new ~18MP APS-C sensor and I think that could be what we'll see. Totally agree that an APS-C crop of the 1DX sensor with 6.9MP is a non-starter.

what if it functioned like the fuji EXR tech where you can choose low MP and higher DR and cleaner ISO or more MP and use lower iso? then you get your cake and eat it too. I think something like this in a new 7D they would struggle to keep up with demand, from amature and pro's alike.