Nikon = hurting. (question mark changed to a period)

[Mikehit]

hehe, i wil just sit back and see, which of those *oh so infallible* corporations follows Nokia and Kodak next ...

Probably Sony ;D

 

[old-pr-pix]

Seems to me that Pentax is most vulnerable. Pentax is a tiny part of their overall parent corporation - qualifying simply as 'Other' in financial reports. Yet, they seem to find partners (Sony sensors, Tamron lenses) and still innovate. The question is whether the market will provide them a comfortable niche' that doesn't require the uber-expensive, 'big white' class, lenses. (They have one 560 mm white lens, but it needs refresh to mate well with higher resolution bodies.)

Excepting government intervention, it is after all the market that decides. It's easy to find examples where companies already in a particular market miss (or won't accept) innovations that are disruptive. Kodak effectively invented digital photography yet couldn't resist protecting their status-quo. Mountain bikes are another example of existing manufacturers ignoring all the signals and being displaced by new upstarts.

At the same time it is too easy to out-innovate the market's acceptance. Once a company does that they tend to become very conservative the next time. Electric cars might be an example. Government credits may encourage the market; but, by itself it isn't ready. Eye-controlled focus... did anyone actually try to use it in the Elan 7e? It requires a level of user discipline that is hard to master. Touchscreen focus selection works much more effectively for me. You can check the overall frame composition while still tweaking the focus point.

 

[bwud]

My suspicion on canon and offering a high-end mirrorless rig:

The tech isn't ready. Canon has a strong reputation when it comes to performance and usability, particularly with respect to autofocus. They also have arguably the best on-sensor AF hardware with DPAF. However, in equipped cameras, people still largely opt for the off sensor AF unit in critical scenarios like action.

Similarly, Sony, who has been pushing the mirrorless segment, recently had to put a mirror (albeit a translucent one) in front of the A7R ii sensor to get it to focus well.

If and when the on-sensor tech is up to snuff, I expect canon will move on that market segment.

 

[Orangutan]

The Canon Defence League is a figment of your imagination. While I (and others I presume) think your proposed features are either something that would be nice, we also make an effort to understand the reason they are not in there yet and may not be in the near future.

Yes, this is the very definition of "Canon Defense League" people.

Several months ago you started making it clear why you do what you do: you're trying to create a swell of demand in the Canon community. I don't think it's going to happen, and it's not worth my time to participate. There are other things much more worth my time and energy.

Basically dumb customers who are always APOLOGIZING Canon, always exculpating, always explaining ... while other companies are implementing those very "impossible" features and solutions in their products left and right.

The REL (Reality Elucidation League) has not said "impossible:" features do not magically come into existence, and the tools to produce them do not grow from bare earth. The tech requires R&D, and the factories must be re-tooled. All these cost money. Every camera manufacturer makes choices about which features to put into a particular camera or lens, and that contributes to the eventual cost to the purchaser.

Rather than PUSHING Canon to not constantly nerf, cripple and "marketing differentiate" the products they want us to buy.

How do you intend to PUSH? Seriously, what's your big-pictures plan to push Canon? Please explain it, because I can't see how a few hands full of gearheads can affect the market more than the sales data and formal surveys.

Seriously, what's your plan to push Canon?

 

[Mikehit]

hehe, i wil just sit back and see, which of those *oh so infallible* corporations follows Nokia and Kodak next ...

Now I have time, let's have a look at why Nokia phones crashed - they went into a disastrous deal with Microsoft. They developed a new platform to counter Android but MS forced them to change tack and that affected confidence in them. But Nokia are far from bust - they simply concentrated on network and not hardware.

Kodak crashed because they misunderstood the market and underestimated the digital imaging technology they had developed, and in response they invested in a disastrous business model which included boosting presence in other areas (prints, inks etc) where the market was also changing quickly. Canon has shown signs of neither error - they have a strong business model and are adapting to the new markets. And if you want to draw a parallel between Kodak's attempts to bolster film in the face of the digital revolution, and what you see as Canons' attempts to bolster mirror-slappers in the face of mirrorless, then market success (in fact, increasing market success) suggests that is a misplaced analogy.

 

[AvTvM]

Seriously, what's your plan to push Canon?

Rather simple. There is 2 things i and every other (!) - existing or potential - Canon customer can easily do:

1. not buy anything Canon, as long as they don't offer the right products..
Done. Not purchased anything from them during the last 2 years.

2) rather than posting in forums like apologetic Canon employees and Defense Leaguers, I voice my opinion *as a customer*, what I like, what I would like and what I don't like.
Work in progress.

And if a lot of us do so these 2 simple measures will provide rather *strong PUSH* to suck up to us. Rather than people publicly sucking up to them.


Actually, Nikon is feeling this kind of PUSH rather nicely at the moment. No even halfway decent mirrorless offering - not even APS-C ... and they are being punished by us, their boss: the customers. I like.

 

[JBSF]

Seriously, what's your plan to push Canon?

Rather simple. There is 2 things i and every other (!) - existing or potential - Canon customer can easily do:

1. not buy anything Canon, as long as they don't offer the right products..
Done. Not purchased anything from them during the last 2 years.

2) rather than posting in forums like apologetic Canon employees and Defense Leaguers, I voice my opinion *as a customer*, what I like, what I would like and what I don't like.
Work in progress.

And if a lot of us do so these 2 simple measures will provide rather *strong PUSH* to suck up to us. Rather than people publicly sucking up to them.

Actually, Nikon is feeling this kind of PUSH rather nicely at the moment. No even halfway decent mirrorless offering - not even APS-C ... and they are being punished by us, their boss: the customers. I like.

1. If you haven't purchased in two years you are not a customer.

And 2. Hurtful as it may be, Canon is not and never will be listening to you.

 

[Loswr]

Seriously, what's your plan to push Canon?

Rather simple. There is 2 things i and every other (!) - existing or potential - Canon customer can easily do:

1. not buy anything Canon, as long as they don't offer the right products..
Done. Not purchased anything from them during the last 2 years.

2) rather than posting in forums like apologetic Canon employees and Defense Leaguers, I voice my opinion *as a customer*, what I like, what I would like and what I don't like.
Work in progress.

And if a lot of us do so these 2 simple measures will provide rather *strong PUSH* to suck up to us. Rather than people publicly sucking up to them.

Still living in your delusion. Fine, you haven't bought anything from Canon in the past two years. Who cares? The thing is, every other existing and potential Canon customer could easily choose to not buy Canon gear...but they're not making that choice. Instead, Canon's ILC sales went up over the past year, despite a continuing overall drop in global ILC sales.

So the only place this 'strong PUSH' exists is inside your delusional headspace. Out here in the real world, the exact opposite is happening...Canon's ILC sales are increasing, which sends a very strong message that they're doing the right thing.

Your 'pushing Canon' is just as ineffectual as your feeble and pathetic attempts to understand business and economic principles, i.e. a total fail.

As for voicing your opnion as a customer, you remind me of the occasional decrepit lunatic standing on a street corner and incessantly shouting obscenities. Sure, they have an opinion and they're voicing it...but they sound so asinine and ridiculous that most people just tune them out...and those who do bother to listen briefly quickly realize that their opinion is worthless, no matter how loudly they shout it.

 

[Mikehit]

2) rather than posting in forums like apologetic Canon employees and Defense Leaguers, I voice my opinion *as a customer*, what I like, what I would like and what I don't like.
Work in progress.

Canon defence leaguers also express what they want and it is suprisingly similar to you. Or hadn't you noticed?
The difference is you believe Canon have not released those feature because Canon don't think they are wanted.
But if you haven't bought anything from them in 2 years, you are not a customer. You are an outsider thinking you know the Canon target market.

And if a lot of us do so these 2 simple measures will provide rather *strong PUSH* to suck up to us. Rather than people publicly sucking up to them.

Who is sucking up to them? There are plenty of threads explaining what we would like.
The difference is that you variously describe the lack of features you want as dinosaur-thinking within Canon, a deliberate withholding of technology that they could incorporate at the drop of a hat with zero impact on selling cost, or a sheer incompetence in not understanding the market.

Actually, Nikon is feeling this kind of PUSH rather nicely at the moment. No even halfway decent mirrorless offering - not even APS-C ... and they are being punished by us, their boss: the customers. I like.

Any evidence that lack of mirrorless is at the root of their problems? Please - show us some evidence.
Sony is purely mirrorless and it isn'tt working out too well for them. By your reckoning they should be increasing year on year, but they peaked in 2012 - 5 years ago

 

[scyrene]

What's that saying about playing chess with a pigeon...? :

 

[AvTvM]

Sony is purely mirrorless and it isn't working out too well for them. By your reckoning they should be increasing year on year, but they peaked in 2012 - 5 years ago

well ... just imagine for a moment where Sony would be today *without* mirrorless camera systems? Had they continued only with A-mount mirrorslappers and SLTs ... where wojuld tehy stand? What would be their market share? More or less than Pentax and the 7 dwarfs?

Mirrorless has saved Sony's a** ...

 

[Mikehit]

yes, mirrorless did save Sony's ass. I am not denying that - but to be honest that is not saying a lot. It was the first large-sensor mirrorless allied with an amazing sensor and it rightly won a lot of customers and suited the way a lot of people work.
If Canon introduced a similar spec camera I and many others would be pleased but (and here is the kicker) - it must do so without compromising any of the current Canon range qualities. In the current market my guess is that maintaining current standards in the 1D/5D/7D/6D level is more important than introducing the supposed benefits of mirrorless and making compromises.


The Sony has issues with corner distortion - landscapers who use Canon would not (absolutely not) accept a mirrorless that gave them lesser performance simply to save 100g on body weight. I agree with you that these issues are not insurmountable but they haven't been beaten yet. And until they are beaten Canon will not consider them a realistic alternative to replace an existing model
There are issues with non-mirror AF systems. A 5D user or 1D user will not accept compromises in any form simply for the supposed benefits. So it will not replace any top range camera (yet).
Don't forget that it is seeing pros use their cameras that is the best advertising for a Canon camera. If the pros start whining their market risks collapsing.

So Canon remain trialling their mirrorless technology in the Sony.
To say 'Sony have it so Canon should' is arrant nonsense. They clearly give it a different priority in the short term - and that is the only point I have ever made. For all I know, they may already have a mirrorless AF that matches the Sony AF but do not yet think it is good enough for them (good enough for Sony but not good enough for Canon) to incorporate into the 5D/6D/7D range.


If you reply, please can you counter these points rather than merely restating your biases?

 

[Loswr]

So Canon remain trialling their mirrorless technology in the Sony.

Given that, what does it say that Canon sold more MILCs than Sony last year?

 

[AvTvM]

As we discussed, it would not be very difficult to avoid the shortcomings of the SOny A7 series ... remmebr E-Mount ... parameters suitable for APS-C, but highly compromised for FF?

With a properly chosen mount and native lens lineup and Canon User Interface I would be more than happy to buy a Canon FF MILC matching all aspects of Sony A7 R II ... especially its sensor ... still beats 5D IV any day.

 

[bwud]

As we discussed, it would not be very difficult to avoid the shortcomings of the SOny A7 series...

What do you propose canon can easily do to avoid the AF shortcoming of the Sony Alpha line when Sony itself had to use a mirror to do so? DPAF would certainly help close the gap, but it isn't interchangeable.

 

[AvTvM]

As we discussed, it would not be very difficult to avoid the shortcomings of the SOny A7 series...

What do you propose canon can easily do to avoid the AF shortcoming of the Sony Alpha line when Sony itself had to use a mirror to do so? DPAF would certainly help close the gap, but it isn't interchangeable.

Sony A7 R II focuses just fine. At least for everyone who does not truly need 1D-X II AF performance. Like most other people - except a disproportionate number here on this forum - I never shoot BIF or action sports.

Sony built the "mirrored" A99 II because they believe there are still some A-mount hardcore fans out there who will buy it.

 

[bwud]

Are you speaking from experience?

In mine it doesn't compare, particularly for action and low light. I rarely shoot birds in flight and never shoot action sports, and the difference is still rather apparent. My a7r ii works great with abundant light and contrast using relatively short focal lengths. In other situations it struggles even with static subjects. Fortunately it is a dream to manually focus. Regardless, when I expect such situations I rely on 5D iii.

And of course they made it because they thought people would buy it. Why else would they?

However you didn't answer the question. So I'll ask again, given your confidence that it's an easy task to avoid the shortcomings. What can canon easily do?

 

[Loswr]

Are you speaking from experience?

Yes, AvTvM has vast amounts of experience. At least, vast amounts of one type of experience...

 

[Aglet]

...my d800s still deliver so well that the minuscule improvements are not worth the bother. Same with the crop bodies with the exception of the new D500 beast. But if you have a 7100 or 7200... few need what the 500 adds. Even the d5x00 bodies are extremely capable if you don't need weather-sealing or really high frame rates.

There seems to be a constant stream of Canon upgraders in good volumes, hoping to get better gear, improve their skills, maybe discover they want even better gear, keep buying the same brand...

So, in essence, you're saying that Canon offers improvements that are sufficiently impactful to tempt users to upgrade, while Nikon offers only minor improvements that aren't that very attractive to users.

Smart Canon.

Neuro, that's a great example of quoting out of context by using selective quoting to try to depict the opposite of the original statement.
Did you get practice in this skill by working for politicians or big-pharma?..

 

[unfocused]

While this is by far not the longest thread on this forum, it might set a record for being totally devoid of any substance. Nothing but goofy comments and insults, with a few folks trying vainly to introduce a bit of sanity without any success.

Neuro and AvTvM can you two just get a room?