No 7D Mark II? [CR1]

[LetTheRightLensIn]

....and I'll say it again - Canon should never have made the 7D as good as it is functionally with a crop sensor. It's like putting a lawn-mower engine into a BMW convertible.

I should know as I own two 5DMarkII's and a 7D. I bought the 7D thinking it would be close to the 5D in image quality, or at least in the same ballpark. I was excited by its features and thought I could live with a small drop in IQ for the sake of all those other goodies. Unfortunately it's not even close. Makes sense though - the 5D Mark II has 2.56 times the surface area for the sensor, and sensor technology improves, but rarely by that amount in a year. The crop factor at 1.6x really does make a big difference.

So the current lineup is just freaking bizarre. In fact it's horrible. Here's why:

1. You have a fantastically featured awesome little camera with great autofocus, button layout, flash trigger capabilities, weather sealing, responsiveness...yadda yadda yadda.... but with a horrible sensor (by pro standards OK - compared to 5D Mark II) that make shots look very point-n-click like in the noise department, and even in the low light color rendition. That's the current 7D.

If you are distance limited, the 7D sensor delivers a touch better than the 5D2, so what was so wrong with a little aps-c camera with better performance? Lots of people liked it.

And APS-C is less expensive and it's not like it performs that badly even when not distance limited, sure not as well as FF, although if you adjust aperture to make up for DOF the performance becomes much closer.

That lineup is just whack and they should really do a sensor swap. Canon will address this by putting crop sensors solely back into the XXD line with the 70D, and boosting the features of the 5DmarkIII so they meet or surpass the 7D - guaranteed. Well shots per second *might* be down a bit, and there will be no onboard flash but these are the only exceptions I can think of). If they did kill the 7D line and put most of it's great features into the next 5D, then look out for a 5Dx moniker.

certainly nothing wrong with boosting small body FF specs, I've been asking for that for ages but I don't think it has to kill off the 7D, at least unless it has at least 30-36MP sensor density and APS-C crop mode.

 

[LetTheRightLensIn]

It just doesn't make any sense. Why would they do that?

That would be the 70D...

The 7D is a real oddity - a decidedly "pro" body with glaringly non-pro features (sensor, pop-up flash anyone?). Put a 22MP new-gen FF sensor in a 7D body, add the new 1Dx-derived AF tech, and you have the 5Dx. Every 7D/5D2 owner will buy one, probably two. Pump up the 60D with some 7D tech and bring back the xxD line to it's rightful place at the top of the APS-C heap. Wham-bam, Canon sells a gazillion cameras and Nikon fanboys gloat about their 36MP that no-one really wanted anyway

Don't knock the pop-up flash, you never know.

Out of the blue we once got a call that the stanley cup was in town and that we needed to run and get some shots instantly, pop up flash sure provided some nice little fill flash for the first location they had it in and some pros there were in the same situation and going "gotta love the pop up!"

And it's nice for the occasional little snap shot or a sudden unexpected thing like a tree frog appearing at night when that was the last thing you were expecting to shoot, etc. Not everyone want to always drag an external flash along every single time they are out.

Don't knock it.

 

[awinphoto]

It just doesn't make any sense. Why would they do that?

That would be the 70D...

The 7D is a real oddity - a decidedly "pro" body with glaringly non-pro features (sensor, pop-up flash anyone?). Put a 22MP new-gen FF sensor in a 7D body, add the new 1Dx-derived AF tech, and you have the 5Dx. Every 7D/5D2 owner will buy one, probably two. Pump up the 60D with some 7D tech and bring back the xxD line to it's rightful place at the top of the APS-C heap. Wham-bam, Canon sells a gazillion cameras and Nikon fanboys gloat about their 36MP that no-one really wanted anyway

Don't knock the pop-up flash, you never know.

Out of the blue we once got a call that the stanley cup was in town and that we needed to run and get some shots instantly, pop up flash sure provided some nice little fill flash for the first location they had it in and some pros there were in the same situation and going "gotta love the pop up!"

And it's nice for the occasional little snap shot or a sudden unexpected thing like a tree frog appearing at night when that was the last thing you were expecting to shoot, etc. Not everyone want to always drag an external flash along every single time they are out.

Don't knock it.

Also dont forget the D300, D300s, D700 AND the D800 all have pop up flashes. All them, in the nikon lineup, are considered pro bodies. Plus you got the wireless commander... It serves it's purpose for the Oh Crap moments. Also dont forget the 7D was aimed squarely at the D300 and the D300s. The 7D2 will likely be aimed squarely at the D400 or whatever it gets called when the time comes.

 

[AprilForever]

It just doesn't make any sense. Why would they do that?

That would be the 70D...

The 7D is a real oddity - a decidedly "pro" body with glaringly non-pro features (sensor, pop-up flash anyone?). Put a 22MP new-gen FF sensor in a 7D body, add the new 1Dx-derived AF tech, and you have the 5Dx. Every 7D/5D2 owner will buy one, probably two. Pump up the 60D with some 7D tech and bring back the xxD line to it's rightful place at the top of the APS-C heap. Wham-bam, Canon sells a gazillion cameras and Nikon fanboys gloat about their 36MP that no-one really wanted anyway

Don't knock the pop-up flash, you never know.

Out of the blue we once got a call that the stanley cup was in town and that we needed to run and get some shots instantly, pop up flash sure provided some nice little fill flash for the first location they had it in and some pros there were in the same situation and going "gotta love the pop up!"

And it's nice for the occasional little snap shot or a sudden unexpected thing like a tree frog appearing at night when that was the last thing you were expecting to shoot, etc. Not everyone want to always drag an external flash along every single time they are out.

Don't knock it.

Also dont forget the D300, D300s, D700 AND the D800 all have pop up flashes. All them, in the nikon lineup, are considered pro bodies. Plus you got the wireless commander... It serves it's purpose for the Oh Crap moments. Also dont forget the 7D was aimed squarely at the D300 and the D300s. The 7D2 will likely be aimed squarely at the D400 or whatever it gets called when the time comes.

The crop sensor is the big attraction of the 7D. Pop in a 22mp FF and you have a gelded wildlife camera. It's usefulness would be sorely degraded.

The 1.6 crop is the best teleconverter there is. My 300 2.8 would suddenly have the field of view of the 200 side of my 70-200 f2.8,

It would be folly and mischievous madness for Canon to adulterate the 7D. By the way, what do you think the D400 is going to be like? If Canon drops the ball on the 7D MK II, and Nikon gets the D400 right, a lot of people are going to be looking long and hard at the other side of the fence.

 

[Jim K]

If this rumor is true I want to know who was the bird/sport/wildlife shooter that really pis anoyed the Canon execs? Kill the 1D4 and now kill the 7D?

If you merge the 7D into the 70D what will it cost for a xxxD shooter to move up to the 70D? Will they pay that much? Well, if they just move the present 7D into the smaller body they could save the development cost of a 7D2 but then what will 7D users do for an upgrade?

A question for the FF shooters that keep telling us to move up to FF. Do you shoot a supertelephoto + an extender? If I shot weddings and events there is no way I would have bought a second 7D rather than a 5D2 but I don't. At times I really need a 1120mm FOV (500mm x 1.4 x 1.6).

Perhaps I should buy a 1D4 before they are all gone, that way I would have f/8 AF with the lower crop.

 

[Jim K]

If this rumor is true I want to know who was the bird/sport/wildlife shooter that really pis anoyed the Canon execs? Kill the 1D4 and now kill the 7D?

If you merge the 7D into the 70D what will it cost for a xxxD shooter to move up to the 70D? Will they pay that much? Well, if they just move the present 7D into the smaller body they could save the development cost of a 7D2 but then what will 7D users do for an upgrade?

A question for the FF shooters that keep telling us to move up to FF. Do you shoot a supertelephoto + an extender? If I shot weddings and events there is no way I would have bought a second 7D rather than a 5D2 but I don't. At times I really need a 1120mm FOV (500mm x 1.4 x 1.6).

Perhaps I should buy a 1D4 before they are all gone, that way I would have f/8 AF with the lower crop. With what I have invested in white lenses and the nearly 2X increase in the prices of the Mark II superteles there is no way I could switch to the dark side.

 

[DzPhotography]

If this rumor is true I want to know who was the bird/sport/wildlife shooter that really pis anoyed the Canon execs? Kill the 1D4 and now kill the 7D?

If you merge the 7D into the 70D what will it cost for a xxxD shooter to move up to the 70D? Will they pay that much? Well, if they just move the present 7D into the smaller body they could save the development cost of a 7D2 but then what will 7D users do for an upgrade?

A question for the FF shooters that keep telling us to move up to FF. Do you shoot a supertelephoto + an extender? If I shot weddings and events there is no way I would have bought a second 7D rather than a 5D2 but I don't. At times I really need a 1120mm FOV (500mm x 1.4 x 1.6).

Perhaps I should buy a 1D4 before they are all gone, that way I would have f/8 AF with the lower crop. With what I have invested in white lenses and the nearly 2X increase in the prices of the Mark II superteles there is no way I could switch to the dark side.

Why are you quoting your own post?

 

[awinphoto]

It would be folly and mischievous madness for Canon to adulterate the 7D. By the way, what do you think the D400 is going to be like? If Canon drops the ball on the 7D MK II, and Nikon gets the D400 right, a lot of people are going to be looking long and hard at the other side of the fence.

I feel the same way. As i said before, I really cannot see Canon pumping out a canon 7d2 until A) the market demands of such a camera and B) when competition demands of such a camera. Few times has canon went ahead of nikon in announcement dates... mainly because they are playing chicken with nikon. In 09 they released the 50D, then nikon released the D90 which had video which made Canon shooters go up in arms that the 50D didn't have video, and then Canon responded with the 5d2.

I think, like the 5d3 and the D800, canon is really looking at market surveys, and looking at their customers demands are before announcing/releasing the 5d3, and I think they will do the same with the 7d2 and the D400. It's a big chess match and they aren't going to make their move unless a move is to be made or their hand if forced into doing so.

 

[Chuck Alaimo]

It just doesn't make any sense. Why would they do that?

That would be the 70D...

The 7D is a real oddity - a decidedly "pro" body with glaringly non-pro features (sensor, pop-up flash anyone?). Put a 22MP new-gen FF sensor in a 7D body, add the new 1Dx-derived AF tech, and you have the 5Dx. Every 7D/5D2 owner will buy one, probably two. Pump up the 60D with some 7D tech and bring back the xxD line to it's rightful place at the top of the APS-C heap. Wham-bam, Canon sells a gazillion cameras and Nikon fanboys gloat about their 36MP that no-one really wanted anyway

Don't knock the pop-up flash, you never know.

Out of the blue we once got a call that the stanley cup was in town and that we needed to run and get some shots instantly, pop up flash sure provided some nice little fill flash for the first location they had it in and some pros there were in the same situation and going "gotta love the pop up!"

And it's nice for the occasional little snap shot or a sudden unexpected thing like a tree frog appearing at night when that was the last thing you were expecting to shoot, etc. Not everyone want to always drag an external flash along every single time they are out.

Don't knock it.

Also dont forget the D300, D300s, D700 AND the D800 all have pop up flashes. All them, in the nikon lineup, are considered pro bodies. Plus you got the wireless commander... It serves it's purpose for the Oh Crap moments. Also dont forget the 7D was aimed squarely at the D300 and the D300s. The 7D2 will likely be aimed squarely at the D400 or whatever it gets called when the time comes.

The crop sensor is the big attraction of the 7D. Pop in a 22mp FF and you have a gelded wildlife camera. It's usefulness would be sorely degraded.

The 1.6 crop is the best teleconverter there is. My 300 2.8 would suddenly have the field of view of the 200 side of my 70-200 f2.8,

It would be folly and mischievous madness for Canon to adulterate the 7D. By the way, what do you think the D400 is going to be like? If Canon drops the ball on the 7D MK II, and Nikon gets the D400 right, a lot of people are going to be looking long and hard at the other side of the fence.

If its true that they're ending the 7D line, then nikon execs must be licking their chops, if canon does not even offer a pro/semi-pro crop, then nikon doesn't even have to get it right as it were.

 

[DzPhotography]

Any of you guys come to think of it there might not be a 7DMkII RIGHT NOW or ANYTIME SOON? Nikon and Canon are currently occupied in upgrading their FF products, and may not have sufficient funds to also develop new APS-C sensors?

 

[AprilForever]

If this rumor is true I want to know who was the bird/sport/wildlife shooter that really pis anoyed the Canon execs? Kill the 1D4 and now kill the 7D?

If you merge the 7D into the 70D what will it cost for a xxxD shooter to move up to the 70D? Will they pay that much? Well, if they just move the present 7D into the smaller body they could save the development cost of a 7D2 but then what will 7D users do for an upgrade?

A question for the FF shooters that keep telling us to move up to FF. Do you shoot a supertelephoto + an extender? If I shot weddings and events there is no way I would have bought a second 7D rather than a 5D2 but I don't. At times I really need a 1120mm FOV (500mm x 1.4 x 1.6).

Perhaps I should buy a 1D4 before they are all gone, that way I would have f/8 AF with the lower crop.

Canon is crazy. It's almost like they want the wildlife people to jump ship. Arthur Morris has been pretty tight-lipped on his blog about his opinion on the 1DX, but a few complaints have slipped through from time to time, especially about the no F8 AF.

To get the same FOV as my 7D with a 300 2.8, I would need a 500 F4. Bigger, heavier, expensiver, less hand-held. To get the same FOV as my 300 2.8 + 2x TC, I would need either to slap on a 2x TC and get a 1000 f8 with no AF, or go for a 800 5.6 with a 1.4x TC and... ...wait a minute, still NO AF!!!

Plus, that little bit of extra depth of field HELPS. Ever shot herons? On my 7D, I usually need to stop down to F8. If I were using FF, I would be stopping my 500 F4 down to f11. More diffraction, more high ISO to get a shutterspeed >1000...

A crop body just plain makes sense.

 

[Loswr]

Why are you quoting your own post?

He meant to click Modify, but clicked Quote instead. I do that from time to time.

 

[awinphoto]

Any of you guys come to think of it there might not be a 7DMkII RIGHT NOW or ANYTIME SOON? Nikon and Canon are currently occupied in upgrading their FF products, and may not have sufficient funds to also develop new APS-C sensors?

Thats my POV

 

[DzPhotography]

Why are you quoting your own post?

He meant to click Modify, but clicked Quote instead. I do that from time to time.

Ok, now i understand

 

[awinphoto]

If this rumor is true I want to know who was the bird/sport/wildlife shooter that really pis anoyed the Canon execs? Kill the 1D4 and now kill the 7D?

If you merge the 7D into the 70D what will it cost for a xxxD shooter to move up to the 70D? Will they pay that much? Well, if they just move the present 7D into the smaller body they could save the development cost of a 7D2 but then what will 7D users do for an upgrade?

A question for the FF shooters that keep telling us to move up to FF. Do you shoot a supertelephoto + an extender? If I shot weddings and events there is no way I would have bought a second 7D rather than a 5D2 but I don't. At times I really need a 1120mm FOV (500mm x 1.4 x 1.6).

Perhaps I should buy a 1D4 before they are all gone, that way I would have f/8 AF with the lower crop.

Canon is crazy. It's almost like they want the wildlife people to jump ship. Arthur Morris has been pretty tight-lipped on his blog about his opinion on the 1DX, but a few complaints have slipped through from time to time, especially about the no F8 AF.

To get the same FOV as my 7D with a 300 2.8, I would need a 500 F4. Bigger, heavier, expensiver, less hand-held. To get the same FOV as my 300 2.8 + 2x TC, I would need either to slap on a 2x TC and get a 1000 f8 with no AF, or go for a 800 5.6 with a 1.4x TC and... ...wait a minute, still NO AF!!!

Plus, that little bit of extra depth of field HELPS. Ever shot herons? On my 7D, I usually need to stop down to F8. If I were using FF, I would be stopping my 500 F4 down to f11. More diffraction, more high ISO to get a shutterspeed >1000...

A crop body just plain makes sense.

Once again this is all hypothetical and no one knows for sure until it is for sure. So i think we should cool down on the reaction of killing off any camera until it is confirmed or denied by having the 7d2 announced. We are all prisoners of the moment.

 

[Chuck Alaimo]

Any of you guys come to think of it there might not be a 7DMkII RIGHT NOW or ANYTIME SOON? Nikon and Canon are currently occupied in upgrading their FF products, and may not have sufficient funds to also develop new APS-C sensors?

I'd say this makes a whole lot more sense, and what I hope to be true. The one flaw here is the sufficient funds part, if there is a 7d mkii (and the nikon equivilant) in the works, I doubt they're holding out on it due to finances. What I think may make more sense is that they don't want to distract people from the high end products right now. So they started at the top, 1dx. The next thing that came was lenses, and from the looks of there there are quite a few new ones and upgrades on older ones. A ton of lenses, and 2 maybe 3 FF bodies, there's definitely some logic in making sure all eyes are on those products...

And following that logic, its probably within the realm of possibility that they may want us to also believe there is no 7d mkII, why? same logic as above, those of us on the 7D may leap to a 5D mkiii because for the time being, there is no upgrade to be had other than that, and, if the 7D is 'rumored' to be discontinued, well then, it really becomes the only upgrade path...

With all that said - (even if it isn't true!) as long as the perception is that the xD line is better than the xxD line, and the xxD line is better than the xxxD line - how many of us will honestly believe they're upgrading if they move to from xD to xxD?

And ya never know, if this is how it is and will go, many of us will save for a 5dmkii, but end up buying a 7dmkii, because come next year we would still not have enough saved for the 5d, but, that $2000 in the account might very well be enough for a 7dmkii...

http://chuckalaimo.com/

 

[DzPhotography]

Any of you guys come to think of it there might not be a 7DMkII RIGHT NOW or ANYTIME SOON? Nikon and Canon are currently occupied in upgrading their FF products, and may not have sufficient funds to also develop new APS-C sensors?

I'd say this makes a whole lot more sense, and what I hope to be true. The one flaw here is the sufficient funds part, if there is a 7d mkii (and the nikon equivilant) in the works, I doubt they're holding out on it due to finances. What I think may make more sense is that they don't want to distract people from the high end products right now. So they started at the top, 1dx. The next thing that came was lenses, and from the looks of there there are quite a few new ones and upgrades on older ones. A ton of lenses, and 2 maybe 3 FF bodies, there's definitely some logic in making sure all eyes are on those products...

And following that logic, its probably within the realm of possibility that they may want us to also believe there is no 7d mkII, why? same logic as above, those of us on the 7D may leap to a 5D mkiii because for the time being, there is no upgrade to be had other than that, and, if the 7D is 'rumored' to be discontinued, well then, it really becomes the only upgrade path...

With all that said - (even if it isn't true!) as long as the perception is that the xD line is better than the xxD line, and the xxD line is better than the xxxD line - how many of us will honestly believe they're upgrading if they move to from xD to xxD?

And ya never know, if this is how it is and will go, many of us will save for a 5dmkii, but end up buying a 7dmkii, because come next year we would still not have enough saved for the 5d, but, that $2000 in the account might very well be enough for a 7dmkii...

http://chuckalaimo.com/

Exactly my point I agree that it maybe has to do with marketing strategy

 

[lol]

To get the same FOV as my 7D with a 300 2.8, I would need a 500 F4. Bigger, heavier, expensiver, less hand-held. To get the same FOV as my 300 2.8 + 2x TC, I would need either to slap on a 2x TC and get a 1000 f8 with no AF, or go for a 800 5.6 with a 1.4x TC and... ...wait a minute, still NO AF!!!

Plus, that little bit of extra depth of field HELPS. Ever shot herons? On my 7D, I usually need to stop down to F8. If I were using FF, I would be stopping my 500 F4 down to f11. More diffraction, more high ISO to get a shutterspeed >1000...

A crop body just plain makes sense.

There is one other alternative: high MP full frame so you can crop. I want the 45MP rumour to be true just for that, as you can recover crop reach at no cost by cropping, plus the side benefit of your zooms being extended on the wide end by having the bigger sensor. The only small hindrance to all that is shifting high MP at high fps is going to be killer, unless they perhaps offer crop modes with overlay guide lines in the viewfinder.

Just as a numerical example, assuming a 4fps 45MP full frame sensor that was processing limited not mirror limited, you could have 1.3x crop at almost 7fps and 26MP, and 1.6 crop at almost 18MP and 10fps.

 

[briansquibb]

Excuse me? I should stop taking pictures and start pixel peeping to justify the weight and the cost of full frame?

Ignore him - another bad workman, blaming his tools.

You may believe the 7D is better than the pro camera, he may believe that the pro cameras are better than the 7D.

Agree to disagree but please dont be rude about it

 

[awinphoto]

To get the same FOV as my 7D with a 300 2.8, I would need a 500 F4. Bigger, heavier, expensiver, less hand-held. To get the same FOV as my 300 2.8 + 2x TC, I would need either to slap on a 2x TC and get a 1000 f8 with no AF, or go for a 800 5.6 with a 1.4x TC and... ...wait a minute, still NO AF!!!

Plus, that little bit of extra depth of field HELPS. Ever shot herons? On my 7D, I usually need to stop down to F8. If I were using FF, I would be stopping my 500 F4 down to f11. More diffraction, more high ISO to get a shutterspeed >1000...

A crop body just plain makes sense.

There is one other alternative: high MP full frame so you can crop. I want the 45MP rumour to be true just for that, as you can recover crop reach at no cost by cropping, plus the side benefit of your zooms being extended on the wide end by having the bigger sensor. The only small hindrance to all that is shifting high MP at high fps is going to be killer, unless they perhaps offer crop modes with overlay guide lines in the viewfinder.

Just as a numerical example, assuming a 4fps 45MP full frame sensor that was processing limited not mirror limited, you could have 1.3x crop at almost 7fps and 26MP, and 1.6 crop at almost 18MP and 10fps.

You know, i have a very mixed feeling about this attitude of just cropping in post... when I was much younger, I used to shoot some kids baseball games, and because my grandpa gave me one, I shot with a medium format kowa. I had the 80mm (normal lens) and the 150mm (telephoto, like a 100mm on 35mm). It wasn't as telephoto as some of the kids 35mm PAS pocket cameras, but in the end, i knew in the back of my mind, i could take that medium format film and crop in the enlarger to get as good of photos as they could get with the PAS cameras, but when parents wanted to see contact sheets to see if they wanted to have me print out any, even though I explained I could crop and get a great composition, they just couldn't visualize it in their minds eye. In the professional arena now, it's much easier and quicker to show a client on the fly a crop, but still to many, the idea of cropping still boggles peoples minds if the image isn't cropped perfect in the camera. while you and I and every other artistic minded person knows better, it's hard to convince a client... hey, I have this shot perfect, all I need to do is crop it. There's just something, at times, to have a crop camera do it for you automatically to remove any doubt from clients minds.