People that don't shoot in manual...

[sanj]

Hi,
Although I'm not using flash, but I thought it's the other way round?? The Av/Tv mode will automatically adjust the exposure to get the correct exposure due to the additional light in the scene, but in M mode, you need to adjust manually to get the right exposure, right? If you don't adjust your exposure in M mode, won't you get an overexpose image?

Have a nice day.

This is the bit that winds me up "The Av/Tv mode will automatically adjust the exposure to get the correct exposure". The camera should never decide the "correct" exposure. That is for YOU as a photographer/artist to decide through experience and defining your own shooting style. I couldn't give a toss if you like my shots or not or the way I post-process, these are decisions I've made from the instant of picking up a camera, choosing a focal length and attaching a lens, deciding on how shallow I want the DoF to be, the composition, how much light the shutter speed should let in and how I need to control them using ISO or if I'd like fill in flash. Or 2 flashes or 3 flashes or rim lighting or shot into the sun for flare or exposing for the light and getting a silhouette. If I need to plan in advance to get "the shot" then I plan in advance and set up my camera in preparation. If a scene is constantly changing then I'm constantly aware that I need to be constantly in control of what I'm doing and constantly aware of my surroundings. I also need to be in constant control of clients/guests/attendees, backgrounds. some things are easier to control than others and it's quick thinking and experience that makes the best of the worst situations, not the decisions of a processor in a camera. At least if it fucks up then it's my fault and I'm not blaming the camera that has chosen to do something at 30th/sec or f16 thus ruining it that way.

/rant

Note: I do not shoot birds in flight or sports...

You seem to have a 'wind up' issue. Not good when you want to be all manual I guess.

 

[LewisShermer]

This is the bit that winds me up "The Av/Tv mode will automatically adjust the exposure to get the correct exposure". The camera should never decide the "correct" exposure. That is for YOU as a photographer/artist to decide through experience and defining your own shooting style. I couldn't give a toss if you like my shots or not or the way I post-process, these are decisions I've made from the instant of picking up a camera, choosing a focal length and attaching a lens, deciding on how shallow I want the DoF to be, the composition, how much light the shutter speed should let in and how I need to control them using ISO or if I'd like fill in flash. Or 2 flashes or 3 flashes or rim lighting or shot into the sun for flare or exposing for the light and getting a silhouette. If I need to plan in advance to get "the shot" then I plan in advance and set up my camera in preparation. If a scene is constantly changing then I'm constantly aware that I need to be constantly in control of what I'm doing and constantly aware of my surroundings. I also need to be in constant control of clients/guests/attendees, backgrounds. some things are easier to control than others and it's quick thinking and experience that makes the best of the worst situations, not the decisions of a processor in a camera. At least if it fucks up then it's my fault and I'm not blaming the camera that has chosen to do something at 30th/sec or f16 thus ruining it that way.

/rant

Note: I do not shoot birds in flight or sports...

Hi,
Cool down a bit... I understand what you mean... I know that the camera meter won't get you the correct exposure in every situation or the exposure that you want... everyone needs and requirement is different, that's the reason why there is a few metering mode for you to choose, exposure compensation for you to compensate and M mode if you want total control of the exposure.

Have a nice day.

It's not a personal thing, sorry if it seemed that way.

Photography is an art, and the amount of control that you have to portray a certain event, a split second of someone's life, their surroundings and their feelings is amazing. I don't understand why anyone would want to give up that control right from purchasing a camera and lenses to presenting it to the world via a blog, a website, a book or a gallery. I wont apologise for my passion on such things. If you were a painter would you let someone else determine your palette, your brush strokes or your canvas?

 

[Loswr]

You seem to have a 'wind up' issue. Not good when you want to be all manual I guess.

I disagree. 'Wind up' seems the epitome of manual - wind-up watches, wind-up toys, etc.

 

[schill]

This is the bit that winds me up "The Av/Tv mode will automatically adjust the exposure to get the correct exposure". The camera should never decide the "correct" exposure. That is for YOU as a photographer/artist to decide through experience and defining your own shooting style.

And what if my experience and style tell me that the correct exposure for MY desired results is to let the camera do whatever it wants. Just because that doesn't match your experience, style, and results then I am automatically wrong?

I couldn't give a toss if you like my shots or not or the way I post-process, ...

You don't care if we like your stuff, but you seem to be really concerned about how we create stuff.

I don't get why this thread keeps going back and forth between reasonable comments and rants.

In the end, people can do whatever they want. I have no problem with others making suggestions about what might make a photograph better or offering what they would do in certain situations. But just because someone does something different doesn't make them better or worse.

 

[schill]

If you were a painter would you let someone else determine your palette, your brush strokes or your canvas?

So why do you keep telling us that your palette, brush strokes, and canvas are better than ours.

 

[schill]

Thinking about this whole subject, I think a more useful way to look at it is not "which mode do you use" but "what is important to capture the image."

For example, when I shoot running cheetahs (which I do a lot), what's typically important TO ME is the shutter speed. If I want to stop motion, I want a fast shutter speed. If I want to try to get a nice background blur I want a slow shutter speed.

The mode I use to get this shutter speed is not as important as making the shutter speed decision. Sometimes I may decide to use Tv and let the camera adjust the aperture (and this is what I do most often). Other times, I may decide to set the aperture manually. But, in either case the driving parameter is the shutter speed. The camera mode really doesn't matter at all. It changes the way I operate the camera a bit, but it does not have to have any effect on the final image.

In other situations, I may decide that the aperture size is important. For example, shooting indoors I have decided in a certain situation that I always want to shoot wide open (f / 2.8) because I need the light. Whether I shoot in Av or manual, my mode (in my brain) is aperture priority.

And in any case, I'm deciding things like ISO and exposure compensation (if not manual mode) to achieve the results I want.

 

[LewisShermer]

If you were a painter would you let someone else determine your palette, your brush strokes or your canvas?

So why do you keep telling us that your palette, brush strokes, and canvas are better than ours.

I'm not, there's an infinite number of colours, unlimited ways of applying paint and an overwhelming amount of different canvases. the point it you choose them for yourself.

 

[sanj]

If you were a painter would you let someone else determine your palette, your brush strokes or your canvas?

So why do you keep telling us that your palette, brush strokes, and canvas are better than ours.

I'm not, there's an infinite number of colours, unlimited ways of applying paint and an overwhelming amount of different canvases. the point it you choose them for yourself.

I choose AV mode and it works just fine for me. Thank you. There are some photos on my website, please let me know where I failed using AV mode. I use AV mode almost always.

 

[And-Rew]

I'm not, there's an infinite number of colours, unlimited ways of applying paint and an overwhelming amount of different canvases. the point it you choose them for yourself.

And there you have it in a nutshell - people choose how to use a camera and how to adjust the settings for the picture they want according to what works for them.

10 pages on - still not sure why you find it such an issue when some one doesn't do it all manually or wish to learn how to set things up to the level that you or I do... ???

Leave them be and let them enjoy their photography their way and produce the pictures they are happy with. :-X

 

[Loswr]

If you were a painter would you let someone else determine your palette, your brush strokes or your canvas?

So why do you keep telling us that your palette, brush strokes, and canvas are better than ours.

I'm not, there's an infinite number of colours, unlimited ways of applying paint and an overwhelming amount of different canvases. the point it you choose them for yourself.

But if you let a color wheel determine a complementary color for you (like the camera's meter, that's a tool that's making an arbitrary determination based on pre-established criteria), then that's not a good way to do it. You have to pick it yourself, to be a real artist. You're right, your way is better. Not just better, it's really the only way anyone should ever create anything. Thanks for your opinion. :

 

[sanj]

I'm not, there's an infinite number of colours, unlimited ways of applying paint and an overwhelming amount of different canvases. the point it you choose them for yourself.

And there you have it in a nutshell - people choose how to use a camera and how to adjust the settings for the picture they want according to what works for them.

10 pages on - still not sure why you find it such an issue when some one doesn't do it all manually or wish to learn how to set things up to the level that you or I do... ???

Leave them be and let them enjoy their photography their way and produce the pictures they are happy with. :-X

With all humbleness I so disagree that manual shooting is at any 'higher level.' It is a method of shooting. That is it. It does not define art or photography. It is a 'mode' on the camera. We all achieve results in whatever manner we find suitable to the situation. No one is inferior by using AV or even P mode as long as their photos leave an impact. If there is any contest, it is with the result, not the method. Raving and ranting about methods boils down to ego. Feeling superior....

 

[awinphoto]

I'm not going to bother to go through every thread in this topic, but from my experience working as a pro for the last decade, there is a time and place for every setting... I've seen photographers shoot high end $10-20k weddings all in Program mode using meter lock and the like to control exposure... There are times when shooting in mixed lighting and fast paced situations such as weddings where I stick it to AV and at the shallowest DOF my lens at the time can give me. That way I maintain control. There are other times when I know I need a specific shutter or I cannot go below a certain shutter speed in which I default to TV, such as shooting video. And other times, like a ceremony of a wedding, typically light does not change and so I lock all my cameras down to manual at a pre-determined exposure I want to be at so I can guarantee I get what i expect to get. There was a time with 100% of my work was fully manual... but that was before I started to make a living with photography.

 

[TexasBadger]

Wow!

 

[Jay Khaos]

The argument that controlling everything in manual is more artistic is weak in my opinion. A more appropriate analogy to painting is that shooting in manual versus Av is like using more brushes versus less brushes to marginally improve the look of your scene... possibly... but potentially ends up worse too. In the time you spend switching brushes and cleaning and whatnot... the scene is changing.

Personally, I'd rather weight the tradeoff in favor of capturing the moment over having slightly different DOF or shutter speed. But I can see how someone could easily prefer the opposite... especially in a gear forum

 

[thepancakeman]

If you were a painter would you let someone else determine your palette, your brush strokes or your canvas?

So why do you keep telling us that your palette, brush strokes, and canvas are better than ours.

If you were a painter, would you create inferior work if you let a manufacturer create your paints?

 

[insanitybeard]

How about, as an example, a situation where you leave your camera dangling by your side, switched on and ready to take a picture. You're walking along, (for example, hiking, I use this as an example because I can relate to it) and out of the blue are presented with something unique, a bird in flight, an animal, or any number of subjects which will not be hanging around. If your camera is set fully manual, that subject may well be long gone before you change the settings to get the shot. If the camera was in (e.g) Av or Tv, you may get something, depending on how it was set. If you have a few custom configurations set up in the C... custom modes as found on eg, the 7D/5D bodies for such scenarios, you could rapidly spin the selector and fire, and capture at a moments notice, if your custom modes are set correctly. I cannot see the advantage of sticking with full manual in such a situation. They all have their uses.

 

[tcmatthews]

First I am not an expert but I would like to echo what has already been said. TV, AV and M all have there unique purposes. All have access to controlling ISO but each has a different set of two different control points.

TV- shutter and Exposure compensation. No direct Aperture control.
AV- aperture and exposure compensation. No direct Shutter control.
M - Shutter and Aperture control. No direct exposure compensation.

You can control aperture indirectly in TV by locking ISO and using Exposure compensation. In AV you can control Shutter indirectly by locking ISO and using Exposure Compensation. If an image is improperly exposed in TV or AV it is the photographers fault for not compensating for the cameras metering.

Given the use cases you describe I would likely shoot in M most of the time. I use AV the most because it fits my style photography more often than not. If I am indoors or using a flash I normally stick to M unless using a manual lens.

For manual lens I prefer TV mode. This gives me control over everything because the lens has an aperture ring.

 

[clostridium]

In the end it should be what you create (your photo) that actually matters.

The only reason why the individual settings behind the photo matter is for people seeking to capture a similar image and/or learn from the photographer and/or evaluate the equipment used (i.e. they may want to see the bokeh of a certain lens and knowing the aperture used is helpful, etc.)

Cameras are just tools and settings on cameras are just tweaking how the tool works. Some people take amazing pictures with camera phones and that's usually in some full auto mode.

There are pros and cons to different settings in different circumstances and I think that few here would disagree with the statement that it is advantageous to be able to work effectively in multiple camera modes. In order to grow as a photographer and give you the best ability to capture the widest array of quality images this can be helpful. That's sort of why it is a good idea to push yourself to try different lenses and types of subjects - it diversifies your skills as a photographer.

Considering the massive array of different subjects and conditions and equipment that people use to take photos it seems completely unreasonable to dictate the technique used. There are definitely some general concepts around how certain modes might be more advantageous for certain types of subjects or conditions but those are NOT mandatory paths to take.

I have to say though that if Canon manual mode allowed you to dial in EC I would be shooting way more frequently in manual mode. Of course, sometimes I'd be using auto-ISO(!) - at the risk of igniting another 12 page forum fight I think it is fair to say that the use of auto-ISO is a subset of this issue and you shouldn't be looked down upon for using it.

This reminds me of the disagreements that fellow emergency care providers will sometimes have about the different devices and approaches and medications for airway management though the end result is definitely less subjectively judged - you either secured an airway or you didn't or to rephrase it in a more patient focused fashion: you either saved them or killed them.

Craig

 

[KyleSTL]

Next time I'm outside in varying light conditions, I'm actually going to shoot Tv just to see if it makes life any easier.

actually no, I've just had a play and it's Av. I can set the f-stop and it'll work out the shutter speed... Just having a play now... does this mean I'm going to actually have to read the manual? oh man, how am I going to work out what it's exposing for? whole scene or focus point? This is a headache. what if conditions drop at 100ISO below 125th/sec?? there has to be a way to set a minimum shutter-speed then up the ISO to compensate?

Glad you are branching out a bit (unless of course I'm missing sarcasm). With your 5DIII, there are plenty of controls for the Auto ISO function including a minimum shutter speed.

Bloody hell, this thread really has got peoples backs up and on the defence hasn't it?

No sarcasm in that last post, I'm genuinely going to try it, even though I don't understand how it's going to work letting the camera decide on my exposure. I believe there are different estimating modes and a number of things I can do regarding minimum shutter speeds and maximum ISO's... I just have to read up on how to do it

My feather's aren't ruffled at all, I was expressing that I was glad to hear that you are experimenting with different methods and modes. I think you are the one getting bent out of shape. Furthermore, you start the thread by stating that manual is the only was exposure should be determined, and yet it sounds like you have never even tried any other mode. Interesting.

That's a bit like saying: "I've never driven a car with traction control, anti-lock brakes, or any other automated system, because I know I am better at controlling the car in any situation than any kind of safety system."

One other thing, exposure is only one aspect of the image in the digital world, and I assume you set your white balance manually using a custom setting every time for every image as well, that is just as important (unless of course you have a color temperature meter and shoot RAW and correct in post - which is what many people do with exposure in post, minor tweaks that create an image to the artist's taste).

 

[CarlTN]

Again I say I like to use exposure compensation. You can't do that in manual mode, other than by manually setting everything on the fly. Takes too much time, and you miss out on a lot of shots.

If they ever introduce an update that allows exposure compensation while in manual mode, but with ISO in "auto" mode...then I would probably use manual mode all the time. Obviously it would be nice to always be in control of exposure compensation, aperture, and shutter speed (besides the metering mode). Manual control of ISO is not all that necessary, if you have a low noise camera. As for shooting a gray or white card, I've never found it necessary. Of course I don't do a lot of flash photography, so I can see how sometimes it would help to use the card. The flash has a specific color temperature that is a known factor, though. For my purposes, with the time it would take to set the card out and shoot test shots...I prefer to just shoot test shots of the scene if necessary, look at the image on the camera, and set kelvin manually if the AWB is not working well enough. Also, if there are subjects with intense color, I compensate by under-exposing slightly, to keep those colors from blowing out. When shooting in very low light or at night (where the light meter isn't even able to work accurately), I just set kelvin (usually get in the ballpark), and shoot a couple of test shots for exposure. This is not rocket science, is it?