Posting about sensors and DR!

What do you wish people would do concerning sensors and DR ?


  • Total voters
    135
  • Poll closed .
jrista said:
privatebydesign said:
jrista said:
EdB said:
DR is overrated.

Until you need it. Then it tends to be the only thing that matters. :P

And when, pray tell, would it matter more than focus?

Oh good GOD. Seriously? Are you guys going to hound me over everything I say now, with bullshit comments like THAT? :o ::) What a joke...

Oh I'm sorry, I thought it was comfortably above the trolling level of "Until you need it. Then it tends to be the only thing that matters." My mistake...........
 
Upvote 0
Don Haines said:
... the poll isn't about who is right and who is wrong ...
+1 to Don
I've seen too many threads here hijacked by always the same arguments.
Of course nobody here is right or wrong and of course every feature of a cam system could be improved.
And this also needs space to discuss.
But to always reduce it to these two points is just exhausting and tedious.
And if it becomes personal and stubborn it's really inappropriate.

So please
"Discuss them only in threads devoted to the topic"
and let the others enjoy their hobby and passion and pictures with just a shoddy sensor and no DR at all. ;)
 
Upvote 0
jrista said:
AmselAdans said:
wow. Just wow. The least sense for irony I have ever witnessed.

Hey, it's a thread posted just for talk about sensors and DR. :P If there was anywhere to discuss the topic, it's here. ::)

Fair enough ;D

But while I get that this is an important issue for you.

I don't get why a few people would feel the need to argue it incessantly.

You (and others on both sides) must have spent countless hours on here alone debating it. At the end of the day, you feel you need it, others think that the Canon systems present a fine option for what they are doing with their cameras, even when compared to the rest. We're well past the time when anyone is going be be persuaded on either side.

For whatever reason, to some people having even more DR is seen as important. Plenty of the rest believe that other aspects are more important to their photography. It's an art form not a science, there are artists prefer to exercise their creativity by drawing with soft pencils alone, others go for more DR with a full rig of oil paints and brushes. Neither is right or wrong.
 
Upvote 0
jrista said:
privatebydesign said:
pbr9 said:
jrista said:
EdB said:
DR is overrated.

Until you need it. Then it tends to be the only thing that matters. :P

+1000

And when, pray tell, would it matter more than focus?

What camera CAN'T focus these days? I mean, EVERY camera has autofocus, and the vast majority of them do autofocus more than adequately. If you need high performance AF, then there are more than plenty of options for that as well, from multiple brands.

When it comes to the things I personally need DR for? Well, I'll be manually focusing. Every lens that I know of, or would ever care to use for landscapes or anything else where I find more DR useful, has the ability to be manually focused. Again, that's true across many brands.

So...yeah, OF COURSE focus is important. ::) But, why does that matter? Focus is a core fundamental, it's been around since the dawn of photography. We don't lack for it, were not wanting for ultra high performance AF, Canon's AF kicks ass. Why is it that we need more and better focus when we can already track with near-pinpoint accuracy the eyeball of an erratically flying bird?

Why? When the one thing Canon cameras DON'T have...is more DR (more than they have had for five, six years, longer?)

So yes. When you really need DR, it is the single most important thing. Even when you don't think you need it, it can still be useful, it still means better quality images, and often less work involved in making quality images. Because we already have everything else.

ou've now seen the power that lower read noise offers with the examples you yourself created. Real-world photos you created by optimally using both cameras, and processing each file the same. You yourself realized that there wouldn't be any significant gains in shadow detail if you had reduced the noise of the Canon image...not enough, anyway, to match the Exmor image. The shadow data wasn't just useless low-color noise that mimics detail...it was real detail, with good color, clean & smooth light falloff.

That was a simple real-world example, something rather average, where to get a realistic result, you needed some shadow pushing. Not a lot, some. More DR can always be used, even when you might not think it can. I am not going to say everyone must have it or must need it because I do...but it's the only thing Canon cameras don't have, which can often leave you in a bind (or even an average situation) when it comes to recovering shadows. If you didn't think to bracket, your sometimes just SOL. Even when you do bracket, HDR has it's limitations. When you have GNDs, those only go so far, or have their own issues.

Anyway...I don't know how long the photos you took will matter as far as DR discussions go...I guess probably not long, and it will be right back to beating up the "DRones". But, I'm glad you got the chance to see the benefit of more DR for yourself with your own images. ;) Your example wasn't extreme, and you still benefited from more DR. You may have used an older Canon DSLR...but things, at least in the shadows, haven't changed much since that camera was released. There are marginal improvements to things like noise characteristic and level and hue of color noise, but overall, not much has changed.

My point wasn't that most cameras don't have good AF, although many of the best lenses don't, it was that I can't imagine an image where DR could ever be "the only thing that matters", little things like the subject tend to be more important, always, every single time. It is easy to get wrapped up in a train of thought and let it take you to illogical conclusions, DR being the only thing that matters is a perfect example, as a thought it is not valid, as an idea it is not valid, even as a glib throwaway line it is not valid.
 
Upvote 0
jrista said:
AmselAdans said:
wow. Just wow. The least sense for irony I have ever witnessed.
Hey, it's a thread posted just for talk about sensors and DR. :P If there was anywhere to discuss the topic, it's here. ::)
Wrong!
It's a threat posted for talk about the talk about DR and sensors on too many threads.
Or about the opposite opinion, of course.

But not about discussing the arguments of either side once again. So another hijack is about to happen.
And that's ironic.

Not that you're wrong, jrista! Maybe just about the importance you put on this topic or others should see, according to your opinion.
But I do not believe that any further thread (or hijacked thread) is persuading Canon in any way to produce better sensors fulfilling your desires.
Maybe they're already developing something better. Maybe not. I don't know. Surely they could.
But they will not base their development decisions on opinions in this forum, this I'm sure.
 
Upvote 0
I've voted for discussing sensors and DR (and resolution, pixel density etc.) only in threads devoted to the topic. I think these are very interesting topics. But it's becoming annoying seeing these topics continuously debated in threads that have little to nothing to do with sensors.

On the other hand, should someone starts a thread to discuss about sensors and DR, I'd like all the forum members who are not interested in participating to avoid starting bullying the OP: just ignore if not interested, it's as simple as that, or express their opinion in a polite, respectful and relaxed tone.

<sarcasm> @Don: I'd modify #5, adding to those who fixate on DR the others who attack violently the "fixated". </sarcasm>

I like this poll, maybe it's a way to begin getting something fixed on Canon Rumors before it's too late, I don't want valuable members to cancel or corrupt their behavior or CR to become a place resembling other less respectable places! Just continue respecting each other as it has always been. That's why I like forums like CR or TDP (just to mention another excellent one).

zim said:
More concerned about where surapon's gone :-\
I was thinking the same, I like his enthusiasm, directness, spontaneity, civilty and good manner... did anyone bully him recently? I missed that.... :)
 
Upvote 0
pierlux said:
zim said:
More concerned about where surapon's gone :-\
I was thinking the same, I like his enthusiasm, directness, spontaneity, civilty and good manner... did anyone bully him recently? I missed that.... :)
According to his user profile:

Last Active: September 18, 2014, 03:05:43 PM


Last posts didn't seem anything special.
??? :-\
 
Upvote 0
privatebydesign said:
My point wasn't that most cameras don't have good AF, although many of the best lenses don't, it was that I can't imagine an image where DR could ever be "the only thing that matters", little things like the subject tend to be more important, always, every single time. It is easy to get wrapped up in a train of thought and let it take you to illogical conclusions, DR being the only thing that matters is a perfect example, as a thought it is not valid, as an idea it is not valid, even as a glib throwaway line it is not valid.

PBD, I appreciate your normally cogent arguments and the knowledge that you bring to these forums. But I have to say, the comment above shows your total lack of appreciation for the importance of DR. There are many examples around the world of images where DR is the only thing that matters. I believe you stated you're located in the USA, you'll find many such examples hanging in prominent galleries there. For your own personal edification, next time you're in the Washington, D.C. area you might take the time to visit the National Gallery of Art. Here's a quick snapshot from inside the West Building...
 

Attachments

  • National Gallery.jpg
    National Gallery.jpg
    55.5 KB · Views: 192
Upvote 0