Posting about sensors and DR!

[AcutancePhotography]

"I so" want to throw a chair at someone... I don't even care which side of the argument I'm color CAST in.

Bad puns right?

On some other forums I haunt, the mods will lock a thread for a few days to allow the kids to calm down when things start getting bad. Not a bad solution.

 

[Loswr]

2000 Eure per month are sufficient, 3000 Euro per month give you some headroom, 10000 Euro per month give you much more headroom to do things you like - would you say "no"?

Put like that, no. But...what if to get that 10000 € per month, you had to move to and always stay within the city limits of Paris – not the one in France...the one in Texas. Or give up one of your kids.

So, would you still choose that extra headroom if it came with significant strings attached? Maybe you would prefer to get the additional headroom without any changes to your life situation...in that case, you could post on an Internet forum how much you'd like that extra 7000-8000 €, and hope your boss reads your posts and gives you that big raise.

 

[LetTheRightLensIn]

Re: Low ISO noise 5D3 vs D800 - 5 stops underexposure

People wonder how bad Canon's noise is and many here wonder about why people talk about the D800 having low noise in shadows...

Here's an extreme example:
http://www.bobatkins.com/photography/digital/D800_5D3/d800_vs_5D3_5_stops_under_iso100.jpg

Note that while you wouldn't ever expose a shot like this, the noise is always there, only that when you've got brighter regions the noise kind of gets lost. Kind of.

However much there is criticism of the shot being made at -5EV, the Exmor sensor in the Nikon is showing where the "state of the art" is in terms of sensor noise reduction and how far behind Canon is.

Queue arguments about how the Canon sensor is marginally better than the Exmor at high ISO and how that somehow means this test is unimportant.

You say "you wouldn't ever expose a shot like this" — and I agree. But in another thread someone argues that underexposing by 5 stops is now good technique if you use Exmor, and everyone who doesn't underexpose by 5 stops is using old technology, lacking understanding of their sensors, stuck in their old ways, being too conservative, missing out on creative opportunities, etc.

Who said that?
Yeah, nobody.
I think perhaps you mistunderstood what someone was talking about regarind ISO-less sensors and high ISO or something.

 

[LetTheRightLensIn]

My point wasn't that most cameras don't have good AF, although many of the best lenses don't, it was that I can't imagine an image where DR could ever be "the only thing that matters", little things like the subject tend to be more important, always, every single time. It is easy to get wrapped up in a train of thought and let it take you to illogical conclusions, DR being the only thing that matters is a perfect example, as a thought it is not valid, as an idea it is not valid, even as a glib throwaway line it is not valid.

PBD, I appreciate your normally cogent arguments and the knowledge that you bring to these forums. But I have to say, the comment above shows your total lack of appreciation for the importance of DR. There are many examples around the world of images where DR is the only thing that matters. I believe you stated you're located in the USA, you'll find many such examples hanging in prominent galleries there. For your own personal edification, next time you're in the Washington, D.C. area you might take the time to visit the National Gallery of Art. Here's a quick snapshot from inside the West Building...

Nice to see you were able to hold out a whole zero posts here before going back to your old belittling, mocking tricks again and then you wonder why some of the 'DRoners' keep posting and start getting chippy over time.

But then you are oh who me? fanboy? shill? mocking bully? None of us ever tries to hint that Exmor doesn't have better shadows or that you might not want better shadows, how dare anyone imply any of us ever hint at any such things, so why do the 'DRoners' always have to keep going on or get so chippy? Why do they all insist that nothing but DR matters and that lenses and AF and so on matter not a whit (never mind that 99% of us never remotely say such a thing; don't forget as well, that many of us have also said that you can take an infinite number of shots with a Canon DSLR where DR won't limit you at all)?

And then of course your next 10 posts are nothing but calculated obfuscations, mockery and veiled or otherwise, personal insults. And Keith is back with his "only a totally incompetent moron DRoner who doesn't know how to use a camera or post process could ever have any use for more DR, ever, than Canon now delivers. LOL."

 

[DIABLO]

More pieces please...

 

[mb66energy]

2000 Eure per month are sufficient, 3000 Euro per month give you some headroom, 10000 Euro per month give you much more headroom to do things you like - would you say "no"?

Put like that, no. But...what if to get that 10000 € per month, you had to move to and always stay within the city limits of Paris – not the one in France...the one in Texas. Or give up one of your kids.

So, would you still choose that extra headroom if it came with significant strings attached? Maybe you would prefer to get the additional headroom without any changes to your life situation...in that case, you could post on an Internet forum how much you'd like that extra 7000-8000 €, and hope your boss reads your posts and gives you that big raise.

I haven't spoken about additional restrictions ...

 

[LetTheRightLensIn]

How often do you see someone go around saying that those who value top AF or high fps are obviously just incompetent, uncoordinated fools? (rarely?) But how often do you see someone say that if you need more DR you are an incompetent moron or lab geek who without a clue about real art and how to shoot and who has probably never even bothered to actually use the camera to take photos of anything more than lens caps?

How often do you see someone go around saying stuff like oh stop being such an artiste and get back into the lab for once and learn some tech and prove you have a even half a brain, as if :, LOL? (never?) Yet how often do you see posts mocking those get into tech details? How often do you see someone go into a photo posting thread and start going on about tech details and calling everyone who is posting photos idiots for not talking about tech? (never?) Or go into a critique thread and start going on about tech/marketing and getting on people for discussing dumb stuff like lighting and composition and so on? (never?) Yet how often do you see someone go into a tech thread on a tech oriented camera forum and start railing about how people are talking about tech and are this or that and learn how to shoot #?#$$#? Or go into a thread actually titled "sensors and dynamic range" and then get on people for talking about sensors when shouldn't they realize it's more than just the sensor that matters? (anyway, some people care about all the little tech details and engineering, some don't, some care about both, who cares? why get on either group? some of those who don't care to get into the tech details about cams are smarter than those who do anyway and some of the lab geeks get out and about and take more photos around the world than those who don't give a whit too, it varies. why should it matter any which way regardless?).

How often do you see some go around saying that someone has to shoot only scenes with lots of DR and that they are fools if they ever dare shoot a scene or even only shoot scenes with low DR? (never?) How often do you see someone mocking someone for wanting more DR at times? (Also, back when Canon had better DR (or SNR), how often did someone get mocked then for going on about how it was great that the Canon sensor let them do this or that?)

Granted whining about lack of this or that probably can get annoying after a while, but sometimes what would've been a quick single direct post and that is that turns into 30 pages after the mocking and insults start, that's not always the fault, but.... (at least annoying whining perhaps keeps the camera maker on notice and in the end maybe helps bring everyone better stuff. People went on about 5D2 AF and then the 5D3. People went on about 1D3 AF and then they fixed it. People went on about manual control for 5D2 video and then it was added. Nikon users went on about poor sensors and lack of FF and now they have the best sensors and FF. In some cases that would've all happened anyway, although likely not in a few, such as with the 1D3 AF fix and 5D2 manual video and 5D3 clean HDMI out and such. Since sensors cost so much to make, nothing but a storm would get Canon's attention (even then, in this case, perhaps nothing but tanking sales will matter no matter how much the userbase cries out for more, which does make me now think that even the 5D4 might not be close to Exmor since sales have not tanked and they appear to not be trying to get ahead of a fall, but simply waiting until one happens to even begin planning to act, in which case it might be 5D6 at the earliest, hopefully the 5D4 brings it though since the lenses and UI are nice).)

 

[Loswr]

2000 Eure per month are sufficient, 3000 Euro per month give you some headroom, 10000 Euro per month give you much more headroom to do things you like - would you say "no"?

Put like that, no. But...what if to get that 10000 € per month, you had to move to and always stay within the city limits of Paris – not the one in France...the one in Texas. Or give up one of your kids.

So, would you still choose that extra headroom if it came with significant strings attached? Maybe you would prefer to get the additional headroom without any changes to your life situation...in that case, you could post on an Internet forum how much you'd like that extra 7000-8000 €, and hope your boss reads your posts and gives you that big raise.

I haven't spoken about additional restrictions ...

In that case, I agree...as I already stated. We've established that having more DR is desirable. Now what?

 

[jdramirez]

I'm at work... so maybe it's just a me problem... or maybe it is my generation... but anytime I see more than one paragraph in a post... unless it is specifically directed at me... I skip it.

It seems contradictory to write ALL that, with the presumption that the person is really trying to make a point and providing substantiation, only to have it skipped by like minded individuals.

I suppose it may just be the internet, but being succinct and having one's opinion read seem to go hand in hand. Stupid Twitter generation.

 

[LetTheRightLensIn]

Anyway I have a feeling the talk about DR will soon rise to a level never seen before (when the 5D4 arrives with the same old 2007 levels of DR) and then quickly fades away as those who care leave Canon over the course of next year.

The latest interview with Canon sounds very discouraging when it comes to DR. I think those who care will probably give up and leave next year. A real shame, Canon has great lenses and great UI. But they seem to have no desire whatsoever to go to a new fab for sensors or to dare let 4k dribble down to regular DSLRs.

I get the feeling that they just have decided a new fab costs too much money and they don't care what anyone says. So long as their sales don't totally, utterly tank, it will be the same old sensors for who knows how many more generations.

http://www.dpreview.com/articles/7079726133/photokina-2014-canon-interview-mirrorless-in-the-very-near-future

See this quote:
"One thing we know from our own testing is that Canon DSLR sensors can’t quite compete with some modern sensors from Sony in terms of dynamic range. How important to you is developing sensor technology?

We are very focused on getting the best image quality. I’m not sure what measurements you’re looking at but when it comes to dynamic range for example we consider image quality as a whole, from low to high ISO sensitivities and on balance we consider our sensors to be the best.

My ideal camera is one that can take a picture in any environment from complete darkness to the brightest sunshine.

So in your opinion your sensors are currently the best on the market?

Yes. In the EOS 7D Mark II for example the sensor we’ve used is improved compared to the previous generation, especially at high ISO and in shadows. There’s less noise."





I don't find that very encouraging.

It sounds like they are not that concerned with low ISO DR so long as the rest is very good.

I get the distinct impression that a high MP 1DXs or 5D4 is coming soon, but that it will yet again fall far behind Nikon DR.

Honestly if it doesn't at least bring a truly high quality delivery of 4k video either then I don't see the point in 5D4 to make it worth the expense over the 5D3. Yeah more MP would make it work better for wildlife due to more reach and give you a bit more landscape detail. But at that point why not just a less expensive 7D2 for even more reach and also get less storage space requirements (since you know Canon won't give the 5D4 a cropped mode) and more fps? And then why not go to Sony with adapter your landscapes and video?

I really simply can't see paying for a 5D4 that is nothing but the 5D3 with the same old sensor but 36-46MP now and the same old blurry version of 1080p that they give. Since it won;t take ML for a long time, if ever, the 5D3 would actually be better for video anyway. Not to mention the Sony A7S. The 7D2 gives more speed and reach. The Sony the same FF and high MP but with much better low ISO DR.

Even the way he pretends to have never heard of DxO or all the DR sensor measurements carried out on forums just sounds rotten. Either they are utterly clueless and don't track forums whatsoever or even major sites like DxO or they are just being disingenuous and covering for still not being willing to go to new fab or use Sony sensors for DSLRs.

I hope I am wrong. I'd absolutely love to just get a 5D4 and forget about SOny nonsense or even a full switch to Nikon (they do have their own issues). But more and more it sounds like exmor just won't be matched unless or until Canon DSLR sales totally drop off the table. (part of me thinks the 5D4 sales might actually start that drop, unlike the 7D2, I'm not sure the 5D4 will handle not matching Exmor, should that prove to be the case, and not having 4k, all that well)

Granted some tend to only rarely shoot high DR scenes and I'm sure they will all stay and like the cam and it surely will do very well for many things and many will be satisfied. Maybe they will continue to sell like crazy with sensors as is for years to come. For those who want more DR and like Canon otherwise, that would be a shame, there is a lot to like about Canon, but what can you do.

 

[LetTheRightLensIn]

I'm at work... so maybe it's just a me problem... or maybe it is my generation... but anytime I see more than one paragraph in a post... unless it is specifically directed at me... I skip it.

It seems contradictory to write ALL that, with the presumption that the person is really trying to make a point and providing substantiation, only to have it skipped by like minded individuals.

I suppose it may just be the internet, but being succinct and having one's opinion read seem to go hand in hand. Stupid Twitter generation.

Yeah back in the early days of usenet and BBS and so on, people used to often post back and forth with 1,2,3 even 4 or more paragraph long messages, but these days more than 144 characters and it's almost considered nuts, so you are probably correct that few read any posts that are more than a sentence long these days, whoa dude, more than three sentences, stop going all Moby Dick on me! No time! tl;dr!

 

[jdramirez]

I love me some Queequeg, but I'll take old man and the sea any day over Melville's exercise in getting paid by the word.

 

[takesome1]

I'm at work... so maybe it's just a me problem... or maybe it is my generation... but anytime I see more than one paragraph in a post... unless it is specifically directed at me... I skip it.

I do to, just too much circular babbling about the same thing.

By the way you posted three paragraphs and I only read the first. Since this post was directed at your post I will assume you will read this line.

 

[Don Haines]

I am going to make my position crystal clear.

I would like my camera to have more DR.
I would like my camera to have less noise.
I would like my camera to have better low and high ISO performance.
I would like my camera to have more fps.....

The thing here is that we ALL want our next camera to be better. When someone points out that Sony does this better or Nikon does that better, why do people attack or ridicule the person for saying so? That is impolite, childish, and out and out stupid.

Many of us on this forum are tired of this behaviour and wish it would stop. It seems to be intruding into thread after thread and turning them into the same old argument again and again.

I think that there is no need for debates on DR. We all want it to be better. Even if you had the best camera out there with the highest DR, you would still want the next one to be better.

As to debates about sensors, I would like to see a REAL conversation about them.... no name calling or belittling of people with different views. Each sensor out there has it's plusses and it's minuses and a proper debate would respectfully discuss the various aspects. When someone resorts to name calling, ridicule, and taunting it ruins whatever point that they are trying to make and poisons the thread.....

and this is the point of this poll..... it is to try and make everyone realize that people are getting fed up with our collective behaviour and maybe.... just maybe.... we will try to do better.

 

[beforeEos Camaras]

I am going to make my position crystal clear.

I would like my camera to have more DR.
I would like my camera to have less noise.
I would like my camera to have better low and high ISO performance.
I would like my camera to have more fps.....

The thing here is that we ALL want our next camera to be better. When someone points out that Sony does this better or Nikon does that better, why do people attack or ridicule the person for saying so? That is impolite, childish, and out and out stupid.

Many of us on this forum are tired of this behaviour and wish it would stop. It seems to be intruding into thread after thread and turning them into the same old argument again and again.

I think that there is no need for debates on DR. We all want it to be better. Even if you had the best camera out there with the highest DR, you would still want the next one to be better.

As to debates about sensors, I would like to see a REAL conversation about them.... no name calling or belittling of people with different views. Each sensor out there has it's plusses and it's minuses and a proper debate would respectfully discuss the various aspects. When someone resorts to name calling, ridicule, and taunting it ruins whatever point that they are trying to make and poisons the thread.....

and this is the point of this poll..... it is to try and make everyone realize that people are getting fed up with our collective behaviour and maybe.... just maybe.... we will try to do better.

but there will be a lot of starving squirrels. but joking aside yes more real points and less bashing. for me I will stay in the canon fold with just over 8 lens 2 cameras possible 3 cameras soon as not a true landscape photographer but more of a street and wild life that loves to take sunsets just a few times a year and the reds do help btw

 

[Loswr]

I'm sorry, but there is a difference between the posts I've written to be humorous, which have absolutely ZERO veiled insults or mockery, let alone blatant insults and mockery, and what you guys are doing, which appears to be intended to be insulting and mocking and derogatory (veiled or otherwise.)

I'm sorry that you didn't see my manipulated images as humorous, which is how they were intended.

No one is telling you what you can or can't talk about. I'd appreciate it if you'd refrain from attributing statements to me which I have not made, such as stating there's no value in having more DR, or that DR doesn't matter. As I know you're fully aware, if landscape photography were my primary focus, I'd own a D800E (now D810) and a 14-24/2.8...I've been saying that for about 2 years now, and DR is one of the reasons. DR is important, but to me – and based on the sales figures, to most people – it's neither the only nor the single most important criterion by which a camera system is judged.

Honestly, you seem to be taking things on these forums as personal attacks against you when they are not intended as anything of the sort. For example, the comment about Tony Northrup's portfolio:

Why is someone whose portfolio is full of glorified snapshots so concerned about his equipment?

Did you just call all my photography glorified snapshots?

I'm not sure what the solution is, but I hope you find one...

 

[LetTheRightLensIn]

I am going to make my position crystal clear.

I would like my camera to have more DR.
I would like my camera to have less noise.
I would like my camera to have better low and high ISO performance.
I would like my camera to have more fps.....

The thing here is that we ALL want our next camera to be better. When someone points out that Sony does this better or Nikon does that better, why do people attack or ridicule the person for saying so? That is impolite, childish, and out and out stupid.

Many of us on this forum are tired of this behaviour and wish it would stop. It seems to be intruding into thread after thread and turning them into the same old argument again and again.

I think that there is no need for debates on DR. We all want it to be better. Even if you had the best camera out there with the highest DR, you would still want the next one to be better.

As to debates about sensors, I would like to see a REAL conversation about them.... no name calling or belittling of people with different views. Each sensor out there has it's plusses and it's minuses and a proper debate would respectfully discuss the various aspects. When someone resorts to name calling, ridicule, and taunting it ruins whatever point that they are trying to make and poisons the thread.....

and this is the point of this poll..... it is to try and make everyone realize that people are getting fed up with our collective behaviour and maybe.... just maybe.... we will try to do better.

agreed

 

[Kahuna]

2000 Eure per month are sufficient, 3000 Euro per month give you some headroom, 10000 Euro per month give you much more headroom to do things you like - would you say "no"?

Put like that, no. But...what if to get that 10000 € per month, you had to move to and always stay within the city limits of Paris – not the one in France...the one in Texas. Or give up one of your kids.

So, would you still choose that extra headroom if it came with significant strings attached? Maybe you would prefer to get the additional headroom without any changes to your life situation...in that case, you could post on an Internet forum how much you'd like that extra 7000-8000 €, and hope your boss reads your posts and gives you that big raise.

I haven't spoken about additional restrictions ...

In that case, I agree...as I already stated. We've established that having more DR is desirable. Now what?

Even MORE DR of course

 

[pierlux]

and this is the point of this poll..... it is to try and make everyone realize that people are getting fed up with our collective behaviour and maybe.... just maybe.... we will try to do better.

Excellent!

I'm glad to finally see tones smoothed down and a more relaxed talk, you guys are so much knowledgeable and excellent photographers, your thousands of posts bear witness of this, to waste your time bickering. Stop DRubbing each other, DRop your weapons, all you need is a clarification, a handshake and a DRink. You've helped countless members improving their ability by giving skilful advice on gear and technique, myself in primis, thanks a lot for this, please go on this way!

And many thanks to Don, also, for having started this thread which might mean the end of the beginning of this forum's DRift towards a DReadful DRabbling!

Peace (is priceless)!

p.s. Now, should threads appear specifically dealing with sensors or DR related stuff, please contribute constructively or just ignore, as the majority voted in this poll.

 

[Loswr]

I wasn't the only one who was confused by V8's comment...

Hence the reason I asked: "Did you just call all my photography glorified snapshots?"

I honestly wasn't sure...

I honestly wasn't sure to whom he was referring, either. Yet you felt the need to go on and defend your photography, not merely ask for clarification...and that indicates you did take it personally.

And to be frank? Your post WAS very mocking.

You're welcome to your own opinion (even though you stated you wouldn't be bothering anyone with those anymore). Apparently you know more about my own motivations than even I do... :

(Oh, and to be clear...that was meant to be mocking.)

But at least we don't reduce ourselves to flinging snotty ridicule and mockery around all the time.

Not all the time, you'll just do it this once. Got it.

Regardless, I have more important concerns than caring how you feel about my posts.