Preorder: Canon EOS-1D X Mark II, Free CFast Card & Reader About to End

[Loswr]

Re: Preorder: Canon EOS-1D X Mark II

One doesn't need fancy, expensive equipment to understand DxO (although as a scientist running several labs, I certainly have access to some, and moreover I know what DxO does isn't 'science'). No, all that's required for refutation is a certain minimum threshold of knowledge and comprehension.

Since you are touting your camera's 'landscapes (ISO <50) at 14.8 DR', you should be able to show images where you've recorded >14 stops of scene DR in a single image. Can you? No, of course not. But it's good that you find the images 'amazing'!

 

[et31]

Re: Preorder: Canon EOS-1D X Mark II

One doesn't need fancy, expensive equipment to understand DxO (although as a scientist running several labs, I certainly have access to some, and moreover I know what DxO does isn't 'science'). No, all that's required for refutation is a certain minimum threshold of knowledge and comprehension.

Since you are touting your camera's 'landscapes (ISO <50) at 14.8 DR', you should be able to show images where you've recorded >14 stops of scene DR in a single image. Can you? No, of course not. But it's good that you find the images 'amazing'!

After shooting for 3 years with the 5D Mark III, I am happy with the D810 as my second full-frame shooter. There is less shadow noise and better shadow recovery. Additionally, I like the way the sensor is able to deal with highlights and how the resolving power of line detail does not diminish as the ISO is pushed to 12,800 (several tests have been done to confirm this by others and I have seen better retention of detail in my photos as I go into the 6,400 zone). It seemed counter-intuitive that with the 5D having 22Mp and a larger ISO range, the SNR would be less capable than Nikon's 36Mp sensor with a lower native ISO. It was a surprise to see how well the Nikon stood up to the Canon and surpassed it in several areas that I had problems with in photographs over time. It may be subjective to you, but I am happy with the results. Well since Canon is marketing their newer models at 15 stops of light these days, it will most likely be that the camera will be outputting 12.3 stops of light (given the C300 Mark II's metrology procedure revelation at the end of November 2015).
I now understand what Canon (and most likely what the other companies are doing). They are allowing at least 2 stops of DR to count in the sensor's capabilities based on signal noise (as the SNR converges to zero) from the values that they read. Is it appropriate to do that, even though the values have significant levels of noise? If they are not usable, I do not see why they are are counting them. They should have 2 scales then and write them on the specs sheet of the camera (similar to how they write the megapixel values - actual vs. effective):
1. Actual measured values of DR with extended range: ~15 stops.
2. Effective / usable DR: 12.3 stops
(and of course indicate the ISO values for optimized DR)

Why are the companies not releasing this information on their websites under specifications?
Marketing technique so that you think you are getting more for your money?

“(…) on a Millivolt video amplitude scale (with Reference White at the traditional 700 mV) the linear signal output (…) – for those last two stops – are less than one millivolt in amplitude. Even with the impressive 67dB Luma signal to noise specification this means those two steps ARE noisy. Indeed, the definition of Dynamic Range is when the final lower step has a signal to noise of approximately 0 dB.”

 

[mkabi]

Re: Preorder: Canon EOS-1D X Mark II

For any Canadians out there, the retail price is being listed at $7999 but at some retailers includes a C-Fast Card and reader. However, the good news is that the CPS price is $6700. A nice $1300 discount and brings it down the the price of the 1DX when it was released. The 1DX had about a $800 CPS discount down to around $6000. Considering how bad our dollar is that CPS price is a welcome relief.

Also for US customers B&H (and Amazon) is listing the package with C-Fast card and reader at the same $5999 price as without so looks like you can get a free card and reader if you preorder.

Question for those that would know... Specifically Canadians... As I am Canadian myself and saw prices for preorder is $7999 at Henry's... This CPS discount is it only for preorders? Only for 1dx2? Can it be used year round?

 

[Jack Douglas]

Re: Preorder: Canon EOS-1D X Mark II

ET31, you seem to know what you're talking about and the reality of your observations I wouldn't question since I'm not competent enough. What tends to get people challenged or corrected stems from bold assertions that ruffle feathers; not mine mind you since I'm not that concerned about what others choose to believe or say.

As an example the statement "it will most likely be" is not going to get you any traction. Still, it's a free country thankfully and we still have freedom of speech, never the less we also have to account for what we say. I love to read the verbal sparing as long as it doesn't get truly nasty!

Jack

 

[et31]

Re: Preorder: Canon EOS-1D X Mark II

ET31, you seem to know what you're talking about and the reality of your observations I wouldn't question since I'm not competent enough. What tends to get people challenged or corrected stems from bold assertions that ruffle feathers; not mine mind you since I'm not that concerned about what others choose to believe or say.

As an example the statement "it will most likely be" is not going to get you any traction. Still, it's a free country thankfully and we still have freedom of speech, never the less we also have to account for what we say. I love to read the verbal sparing as long as it doesn't get truly nasty!

Jack

Agreed! and I thank you!
-Jimmy

 

[Loswr]

Re: Preorder: Canon EOS-1D X Mark II

One doesn't need fancy, expensive equipment to understand DxO (although as a scientist running several labs, I certainly have access to some, and moreover I know what DxO does isn't 'science'). No, all that's required for refutation is a certain minimum threshold of knowledge and comprehension.

Since you are touting your camera's 'landscapes (ISO <50) at 14.8 DR', you should be able to show images where you've recorded >14 stops of scene DR in a single image. Can you? No, of course not. But it's good that you find the images 'amazing'!

After shooting for 3 years with the 5D Mark III, I am happy with the D810 as my second full-frame shooter. There is less shadow noise and better shadow recovery.

Neuro: "What is the average airspeed of a unladen European swallow?"
et31: "Yellow. No, blue."

It's quite apparent you're going to persist in ignoring the issue I raised. Fine, done.

Why are the companies not releasing this information on their websites under specifications?

Probably because outside of a small number of individuals who frequent tech-based Internet forums, no one really cares all that much.

 

[GuyF]

Re: Preorder: Canon EOS-1D X Mark II

Neuro: "What is the average airspeed of a unladen European swallow?"

The same as two tied together but only if they're carrying a coconut strung between them. However DxO measured the African swallow to be faster.

 

[et31]

Re: Preorder: Canon EOS-1D X Mark II

Neuro: "What is the average airspeed of a unladen European swallow?"
et31: "Yellow. No, blue."

It's quite apparent you're going to persist in ignoring the issue I raised. Fine, done.

Why are the companies not releasing this information on their websites under specifications?

Probably because outside of a small number of individuals who frequent tech-based Internet forums, no one really cares all that much.

...and the thousands of professional photographers that invest $$$ in prof. equipment don't care either when they go to purchase the cameras on B&H, Adorama, etc.? Cine people care about lux for low light exposure, and that is readily available in the specs, but DR is not for photogs.

I'm a theoretician. If 14.8EV is measured from the sensor, but only 12.3EV is usable, then I will correctly say that my camera has a 14.8EV max threshold in the limit as the SNR approaches zero, but only 12.3EV capable for effective use.

Same thing for the unladen European swallow: Graham K. Taylor et al. show that as a rule of thumb, the speed of a flying animal is roughly 3 times frequency times amplitude (U ≈ 3fA). Averaging the above numbers and plugging them in to the Strouhal equation for cruising flight (fA/U = 7 beats per second * 0.18 meters per beat / 9.5 meters per second) yields a Strouhal number of roughly 0.13. So, average approximation of 11 meters per second. Theoretically, they could achieve a "dynamic range" of 13-14 mps (see what I did there); however, in actuality it could be 10.1-10.8 mps as birds are subjectively different from one another (even by the smallest amounts in wing length, body mass, mixed species, etc).

Have a nice life! Toodles!

 

[GuyF]

Re: Preorder: Canon EOS-1D X Mark II

Careful et31, Neuro has a vicious streak a mile wide - look at the bones!!!

(I wonder how many reading this will get the references )

 

[wallstreetoneil]

Re: Preorder: Canon EOS-1D X Mark II

For any Canadians out there, the retail price is being listed at $7999 but at some retailers includes a C-Fast Card and reader. However, the good news is that the CPS price is $6700. A nice $1300 discount and brings it down the the price of the 1DX when it was released. The 1DX had about a $800 CPS discount down to around $6000. Considering how bad our dollar is that CPS price is a welcome relief.

Also for US customers B&H (and Amazon) is listing the package with C-Fast card and reader at the same $5999 price as without so looks like you can get a free card and reader if you preorder.

Question for those that would know... Specifically Canadians... As I am Canadian myself and saw prices for preorder is $7999 at Henry's... This CPS discount is it only for preorders? Only for 1dx2? Can it be used year round?

I was quoted a $6800 CPS price by Henry's - not the $6700 that was mentioned above - maybe it is $6799 but they told me $6800.

For 1D bodies, L glass and certain flashes, there is alway a CPS price - it is not just on pre-orders.

 

[haupt]

Re: Preorder: Canon EOS-1D X Mark II

Careful et31, Neuro has a vicious streak a mile wide - look at the bones!!!

(I wonder how many reading this will get the references )

*brings forward The Holy Handgrenade of Antioch and counts to exactly three*

 

[IsaacImage]

Re: Preorder: Canon EOS-1D X Mark II

For any Canadians out there, the retail price is being listed at $7999 but at some retailers includes a C-Fast Card and reader. However, the good news is that the CPS price is $6700. A nice $1300 discount and brings it down the the price of the 1DX when it was released. The 1DX had about a $800 CPS discount down to around $6000. Considering how bad our dollar is that CPS price is a welcome relief.

Also for US customers B&H (and Amazon) is listing the package with C-Fast card and reader at the same $5999 price as without so looks like you can get a free card and reader if you preorder.

Question for those that would know... Specifically Canadians... As I am Canadian myself and saw prices for preorder is $7999 at Henry's... This CPS discount is it only for preorders? Only for 1dx2? Can it be used year round?

I was quoted a $6800 CPS price by Henry's - not the $6700 that was mentioned above - maybe it is $6799 but they told me $6800.

For 1D bodies, L glass and certain flashes, there is alway a CPS price - it is not just on pre-orders.

Vistek same $6800 as well.
What store is $6700 ??

 

[Loswr]

Re: Preorder: Canon EOS-1D X Mark II

...and the thousands of professional photographers that invest $$$ in prof. equipment don't care either when they go to purchase the cameras on B&H, Adorama, etc.? Cine people care about lux for low light exposure, and that is readily available in the specs, but DR is not for photogs.

Thousands of professional photographers are a drop in the bucket of the number of dSLRs sold. Thanks for making my point.

I'm a theoretician. If 14.8EV is measured from the sensor, but only 12.3EV is usable, then I will correctly say that my camera has a 14.8EV max threshold in the limit as the SNR approaches zero, but only 12.3EV capable for effective use.

Ahhhh...so you believe that DxO actually measured 14.8 stops of DR from the D810's sensor.

Snicker. Cachinnate. Chortle. Guffaw.

As I stated, you swallowed their BS bait hook, line and sinker and are now regurgitating it elsewhere on the Internet. Going down and coming back up, it's still the same smelly mess. I'd wish you luck washing the taste from your mouth, but it seems you enjoy it too much.

 

[et31]

Re: Preorder: Canon EOS-1D X Mark II

...and the thousands of professional photographers that invest $$$ in prof. equipment don't care either when they go to purchase the cameras on B&H, Adorama, etc.? Cine people care about lux for low light exposure, and that is readily available in the specs, but DR is not for photogs.

Thousands of professional photographers are a drop in the bucket of the number of dSLRs sold. Thanks for making my point.

I'm a theoretician. If 14.8EV is measured from the sensor, but only 12.3EV is usable, then I will correctly say that my camera has a 14.8EV max threshold in the limit as the SNR approaches zero, but only 12.3EV capable for effective use.

Ahhhh...so you believe that DxO actually measured 14.8 stops of DR from the D810's sensor.

Snicker. Cachinnate. Chortle. Guffaw.

As I stated, you swallowed their BS bait hook, line and sinker and are now regurgitating it elsewhere on the Internet. Going down and coming back up, it's still the same smelly mess. I'd wish you luck washing the taste from your mouth, but it seems you enjoy it too much.

ABRAHAM
Do you bite your thumb at us, sir?

SAMPSON
I do bite my thumb, sir!

Be not the insulting Frenchman!

 

[Loswr]

Re: Preorder: Canon EOS-1D X Mark II

I think you're the one 14.8-stopping in my general direction.

 

[mkabi]

Re: Preorder: Canon EOS-1D X Mark II

For any Canadians out there, the retail price is being listed at $7999 but at some retailers includes a C-Fast Card and reader. However, the good news is that the CPS price is $6700. A nice $1300 discount and brings it down the the price of the 1DX when it was released. The 1DX had about a $800 CPS discount down to around $6000. Considering how bad our dollar is that CPS price is a welcome relief.

Also for US customers B&H (and Amazon) is listing the package with C-Fast card and reader at the same $5999 price as without so looks like you can get a free card and reader if you preorder.

Question for those that would know... Specifically Canadians... As I am Canadian myself and saw prices for preorder is $7999 at Henry's... This CPS discount is it only for preorders? Only for 1dx2? Can it be used year round?

I was quoted a $6800 CPS price by Henry's - not the $6700 that was mentioned above - maybe it is $6799 but they told me $6800.

For 1D bodies, L glass and certain flashes, there is alway a CPS price - it is not just on pre-orders.

That's good to know... thank you.

 

[Loswr]

Re: Preorder: Canon EOS-1D X Mark II

I'm a theoretician. If 14.8EV is measured from the sensor, but only 12.3EV is usable, then I will correctly say that my camera has a 14.8EV max threshold in the limit as the SNR approaches zero, but only 12.3EV capable for effective use.

In fairness, I should acknowledge there's an off chance you actually do believe DxO measured the D810 sensor at 14.8 stops of DR – after all, theoreticians are sometimes weak on analysis and interpretation of actual data. If that's the case, be aware that what they actually measured was 13.7 stops of DR. Accordingly, if you try to capture a scene with more than 13.7 stops, you're going to clip detail in the shadows, highlights, or both.

You're regurgitating the value they give for 'Print DR' which is two lies for the price of one, since they neither print nor measure an image. Instead, they calculate the DR of an image downsampled to an arbitrary 8 MP. Downsample further, DR artificially goes even higher (artificial in the sense that while DR does mathematically increase, you'll never recover the clipped data). Downsample less, DR artificially goes less high. Regardless, data outside of the actually measured DR (of 13.7 stops for the D810) are unrecoverably lost at capture. So, while you can state that your D810 has 14.8 stops of DR until you're blue in the face, it's not a correct statement. Theorize upon that.

More likely, you do understand the above and are just flatulating along our approximate vector. In that case, I suggest you emulate Brave, Brave Sir Robin and run away. Scarper. Bugger off.

 

[privatebydesign]

Re: Preorder: Canon EOS-1D X Mark II

If they are not usable, I do not see why they are are counting them. They should have 2 scales then and write them on the specs sheet of the camera (similar to how they write the megapixel values - actual vs. effective)

Because that is how the iso says to measure it. It is an internationally recognized standard.

I wouldn't disagree, but the sticking point would always be the definition of 'usable', and that is one of the problems with Imatest. For instance a newspaper with a 72 dpi requirement is going to be a lot more accepting of noise in an image than most bird photographers.

 

[Loswr]

Re: Preorder: Canon EOS-1D X Mark II

Because that is how the iso says to measure it.

ISO? That's exactly what we've been discussing – some guys In Search Of a sanctified chalice. Please try to keep up!

 

[privatebydesign]

Re: Preorder: Canon EOS-1D X Mark II

Because that is how the iso says to measure it.

ISO? That's exactly what we've been discussing – some guys In Search Of a sanctified chalice. Please try to keep up!

Sorry, I have been working for the day, I am about to go pick on Rishi now.........

;D