USD pricing for the Canon EOS R6 Mark II and Canon RF 135mm f/1.8L IS USM has leaked ahead of the imminent announcement

Bob Howland

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This means that the price of $2500 for the R6 was likely set even before the final technical design was completely finished.
I disagree. Setting the price early implies that everything is known about what competitors will do and what the general business climate will be at the time of introduction. Certainly there is a target price early on and the people managing the R&D have to know what that is. Any late price change probably won't be large but it is not impossible.
 
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What's the point? It has 6 μm pixel pitch. Plenty of space to put the front-side electronics where it doesn't get illuminated through the microlenses.
Gear-heads love BSI because it's newer. The fact that it doesn't really improve anything on FF cameras doesn't matter. I pity the camera companies when they get to the point (which they already are pretty much at) where you really can't improve much from one generation to the next. Reviewers, gear-heads and influencers will murder them. Intelligent camera buyers will be quite happy when their camera lasts 6 to 8 (or maybe more) years and they won't feel compelled to buy a new one. We reached that point with DSLRs, we are probably pretty close with mirrorless. The question is, will camera companies continue to spend a large amount on R&D, trying to squeeze out minor improvements and refresh their camera series's every 3 to 4 years, or will they realize that a new paradigm is needed - similar to the old film days - where a camera model might not be refreshed for many years. That's how I see it anyway, but could, of course, be wrong.
 
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Gear-heads love BSI because it's newer. The fact that it doesn't really improve anything on FF cameras doesn't matter. I pity the camera companies when they get to the point (which they already are pretty much at) where you really can't improve much from one generation to the next. Reviewers, gear-heads and influencers will murder them. Intelligent camera buyers will be quite happy when their camera lasts 6 to 8 (or maybe more) years and they won't feel compelled to buy a new one. We reached that point with DSLRs, we are probably pretty close with mirrorless. The question is, will camera companies continue to spend a large amount on R&D, trying to squeeze out minor improvements and refresh their camera series's every 3 to 4 years, or will they realize that a new paradigm is needed - similar to the old film days - where a camera model might not be refreshed for many years. That's how I see it anyway, but could, of course, be wrong.
When I've moved from FSI to BSI (GFX 50 to 100 / Leica SL and SL2 to SL2-S), I've seen a noticeable difference, particularly with regard to file pliability in post. One of the most notable improvements I've seen with BSI has been the ability to better retain color information in heavily-lifted shadow areas. (Also, I've seen better corner performance with some adapted wide angle M lenses, but that's a fairly narrow use case.)
 
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This and Z6 ii and R3 have Cf Express cards for the faster readout? I think its unlikely for a stacked sensor with just SD Card slots?
Just because it MIGHT be a stacked sensor, doesn't mean that CFe speeds are needed or justified. Rolling shutter would be improved but that doesn't impact the card speed.

2 scenarios for stills buffer clearance and video sustained writing:
- The current performance for clearing the buffer for R5/R6 from The Digital Picture. Noting that 20fps electronic shutter has a lower bit depth than the 12fps mechanical mode.
- The R5's SD card slot can handle the following video modes with fast USH-ii SD cards from the advanced user guide.

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Canon will sell as many R3’s as they can at a high price to those unwilling to wait. When they’ve met that demand, they will drop the price and hit the next group of buyers and sell more units at the lower margin, thereby maximizing their average profit margin over time and getting close to the maximum that each individual purchaser is willing to pay. Market segmentation. A discounted mk I will extract value from customers who were never willing to pay $2500 while Mk ii maintains the original profit margin for a different consumer that is willing to pay more for a bit more resolution, again maximizing profit per sale. It’s a time tested pricing model with little difference from offering matinee and senior discounts at the movie theater.
It makes sense that an introductory price will be higher than later into the product's life cycle... especially into cash cow/end-of-sale periods. It doesn't mean that prices will change quickly. The R6 hasn't changed price (in the US) since its introduction.

Pre-orders of the R5 in Australia included a custom strap, a spare battery and a small capacity SD card which offset the initial price somewhat. Other ways to discount from Canon's side is to provide post-sale rebates and from the reseller's side with temporary price drops and/or bundling more stuff with it at the MSRP/RRP

Since we are talking about sensors.... I find it fascinating that both the 6Dii and 5Div are still commanding ~50% premiums over their mirrorless versions:

5Div original price = USD3500 in 2016 (USD3600 in 2017 with Clog) vs USD2700 today on B&H
R original price = USD2300 in 2018 vs USD1600 today (USD1800 plus rebate)
=>The DLSR has 50-70% premium for arguably less features but better battery/weather sealing.

6Dii original price = USD2000 in 2017 vs USD1400 today on B&H
RP original price = USD1300 in 2019 vs USD1000 today
=> The DLSR has 40-50% premium.
 
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esglord

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May 9, 2019
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It makes sense that an introductory price will be higher than later into the product's life cycle... especially into cash cow/end-of-sale periods. It doesn't mean that prices will change quickly. The R6 hasn't changed price (in the US) since its introduction.

Pre-orders of the R5 in Australia included a custom strap, a spare battery and a small capacity SD card which offset the initial price somewhat. Other ways to discount from Canon's side is to provide post-sale rebates and from the reseller's side with temporary price drops and/or bundling more stuff with it at the MSRP/RRP

Since we are talking about sensors.... I find it fascinating that both the 6Dii and 5Div are still commanding ~50% premiums over their mirrorless versions:

5Div original price = USD3500 in 2016 (USD3600 in 2017 with Clog) vs USD2700 today on B&H
R original price = USD2300 in 2018 vs USD1600 today (USD1800 plus rebate)
=>The DLSR has 50-70% premium for arguably less features but better battery/weather sealing.

6Dii original price = USD2000 in 2017 vs USD1400 today on B&H
RP original price = USD1300 in 2019 vs USD1000 today
=> The DLSR has 40-50% premium.
To be clear, I’m not claiming R3 is due for a price drop. Since it’s top of the line for specific users and they are constrained on the supply side, I think a price drop there is a ways off.
Regarding R6 on the other hand, there will obviously be a price drop when mk ii is announced. Also, a couple weeks ago on Canon Price Watch, the street price on the R6 was a couple hundred lower than I had ever seen it from authorized dealers, so they were likely clued into the future pricing change.

I wasn’t really talking about sensors myself, because I really don’t know anything about the cost of manufacture. Though, it would seem unlikely to me they would undercut R3 by using the same sensor in a $2500 camera. Maybe a derivation of the same design might make sense like someone else proposed.

I imagine there are way more pros out there still using mostly EF glass than have bought the full gamut of RF lenses, so DSLR cameras definitely aren’t obsolete for those folks.
 
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I imagine there are way more pros out there still using mostly EF glass than have bought the full gamut of RF lenses, so DSLR cameras definitely aren’t obsolete for those folks.
EF glass is going to be around for a long time to come and provides another tier of lens pricing when RF glass is a bit steep for what they need. People migrating to RF also provide a nice second hand EF market as well giving another price point for those to get into Canon's ecosystem and upgrade when needed.

I won't upgrade my current EF glass until it dies and even then I'll wait for specials or until traveling overseas to claim back Australian GST for anything new. Second hand is good enough for me for less used lenses eg 8-15mm/4, 100mm macro and there is no way that Canon can beat the value proposition for the Samyang 14mm/2.8 for wide angle astro. The RF14-30mm/4 is tempting though. A TS-E wide angle would be intriguing for architecture/waterfalls etc

Yes, there are full time shooters still using 1D/5D bodies but harder to justify their pricing vs R3/R5/R6 alternatives. Muscle memory is one thing but eye-AF is another. It becomes a commercial decision when the bodies die - replacement or R mount. Some are waiting for the R1 which I can understand but the price is likely to be eye-watering!
 
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esglord

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May 9, 2019
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EF glass is going to be around for a long time to come and provides another tier of lens pricing when RF glass is a bit steep for what they need. People migrating to RF also provide a nice second hand EF market as well giving another price point for those to get into Canon's ecosystem and upgrade when needed.

I won't upgrade my current EF glass until it dies and even then I'll wait for specials or until traveling overseas to claim back Australian GST for anything new. Second hand is good enough for me for less used lenses eg 8-15mm/4, 100mm macro and there is no way that Canon can beat the value proposition for the Samyang 14mm/2.8 for wide angle astro. The RF14-30mm/4 is tempting though. A TS-E wide angle would be intriguing for architecture/waterfalls etc

Yes, there are full time shooters still using 1D/5D bodies but harder to justify their pricing vs R3/R5/R6 alternatives. Muscle memory is one thing but eye-AF is another. It becomes a commercial decision when the bodies die - replacement or R mount. Some are waiting for the R1 which I can understand but the price is likely to be eye-watering!
I don’t disagree. I would add that if Canon keeps the 1D/5D prices higher, then they incentivize people to choose an R camera when the replace. Then, they can tempt them to buy a few rf lenses. They can’t lower the dslr prices too much or people won’t migrate to their mirrorless, and They need people to migrate, so they can stop making the dslr’s. Will take time
 
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Well if the R6mk2 has a 24mp sensor then Canon have 2 options:
Create a entirely new sensor with all the associated cost such as design, testing, fabrication, firmware development and setting up a new production line. A process that would cost millions and take many months if not years.
Or:
Just use the existing 24mp R3 sensor which has almost no upfront costs other than to expand the capacity of an existing production line. This also cuts development time massively. Then just limit features in firmware.

In pretty sure Canon would just go for option B
Don't forget Canon made that 26mp sensor just for the 6Dii / RP back then. So why not a 24mp sensor for the R6ii and some RP successor?
 
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I think you're underestimating the R6/R6ii by referring to them as only "enthusiast" models. They may well be in the enthusiast price band, but there are plenty of pros using the R6, either as their main body, or as a secondary body to a R5 or R3.
this is just product tiering. you can even use Rp, R for pro work and produce great results.

I think FF stacked sensor will used to differentiate between high end/flagship from enthusiast cameras. Differentiation like large and ‘build like a tank’ nowadays is moot.
Once Global shutter comes, that’ll be another way to differentiate.

Also, Mass low end cameras are going away, so manufacturers must sell these high-end cameras with clear value proposition, and you can’t do it w/o some key Differentiation.

Thanks to Sony again for creating this market i.e., FF stacked sensor, this drove Canon and Nikon to offer FF stacked sensor which created the opportunity to sell their high-end cameras. Imagine Z9 and R3 w/o stacked sensor and the asking price?
 
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Jan 22, 2012
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Yes, it is.
I will eat my shoe if Canon comes out with the 135mm as a non-L lens at that price point.

It would be nice if they came out with a modern day version of the non-L 135mm soft focus lens. That thing was fun to play with but once soft focus control was on the camera's autofocus just wouldn't work properly. I had to shoot in focus stack mode of 10 images to pick out the sharp one each time.
If it is an L lens, I will buy!
 
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TonyG

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Yes, many people on this forum seem to think they know far more about making and selling cameras than the company that dominates the ILC market and has led it for two decades.

Somehow, they don’t realize how asinine their claims sound. It’s both amusing and sad.

I suspect in most cases it’s really just a form of wishing. When they say, “If Canon doesn’t do X or make Y, they’re d00med,” they mean they want X or Y. When they say, “This camera is overpriced, Canon should charge less,” they mean they want the camera but can’t afford it.
Well with all due respect this Forum is a Rumor Site, not Canon's upper management board room.
If we knew what their plan was and why, then there would be no need for a rumor site.
With that being said, trying to analyze and predict what their next strategic move will be, is part of the Rumor and why they might be doing it.

What is asinine is believing a company that is no 1 in the "DSLR" market cannot fall to no 2. Hence why the forum on a rumor site has people commenting on how "in their opinion" a strategy and decision could affect their favorite brand of cameras outcome.

Here is an example. I am still waiting for a 35 L to compliment my 50. I don't know why it has not been released yet. I can only speculate that the optics are not satisfactory enough in order to compete with sony's 35. I would assume the 35 canon wants to release would be slightly superior to sony's. But unless you have Fujio Mitarai tell us why, it is all up to speculation on a rumor site.
It is actually the reason why I own an A7iv and the 35 GM because I needed one and canon does not have one. Once the RF 35 comes out, I will probably be selling my GM as I prefer running my R6. Until then, Sony made the sale, not canon.
 
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What is asinine is believing a company that is no 1 in the "DSLR" market cannot fall to no 2. Hence why the forum on a rumor site has people commenting on how "in their opinion" a strategy and decision could affect their favorite brand of cameras outcome.
I don't think anyone is saying a #1 company cannot fall to #2 any more than anyone is suggesting the sun will rise in the west. But the likelihood of it happening anytime soon is very, very small. Consider that Canon has sold around 50% of all ILCs every year for the past few years. With some reasonable assumptions about camera useful life, that means somewhere around 80% of all ILCs in use today are Canon. So while Canon could lose the #1 spot, it's not going to happen overnight and it's not going to happen because of one decision they make (unless that decision is to pull out of the ILC market, lol).

If Canon is going to drop to #2, they would have to lose market share. Canon has not lost any ILC market share in the past 5 years or so, rather they've gained. So predicting they will drop to #2 anytime soon when the trend is in the opposite direction and they have over double the market share of their nearest competitor (~50% to ~22%) is patently foolish.

As I have said before, history suggests that Canon knows how to make these sorts of decisions in ways that benefit them. OTOH, many people on this forum have a terrible track record of predicting how Canon's strategy and decisions will affect the outcome, since none of those predictions of dire effects for Canon have come to pass. In other words, "their opinions" were wrong.

Here is an example. I am still waiting for a 35 L to compliment my 50. I don't know why it has not been released yet. I can only speculate that the optics are not satisfactory enough in order to compete with sony's 35. I would assume the 35 canon wants to release would be slightly superior to sony's. But unless you have Fujio Mitarai tell us why, it is all up to speculation on a rumor site.
I would speculate that Canon knows exactly how many 35mm L primes they have sold and to whom, and has decided based on those numbers relative to other lenses to prioritize an RF 35L lower than other lenses. The EF 35L II is an excellent lens, and works perfectly on R bodies via the adapter. I have no doubt Canon could easily design and make a better 35mm lens than Sony, just as I have no doubt Sony could have designed and made an even better 35mm GM (cost is the missing part of the equation, obviously). But design and production resources are finite, so Canon has to pick the order for RF lenses to be made. They've stated ~8 lenses/year are coming for the next few years (we have had that discussion already, the one where "in your opinion" you knew how to count Canon's lenses better then they do). It seems very likely that a 35/1.4L or 35/1.2L will be among them.
 
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TonyG

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Consider that Canon has sold around 50% of all ILCs every year for the past few years. With some reasonable assumptions about camera useful life, that means somewhere around 80% of all ILCs in use today are Canon. So while Canon could lose the #1 spot, it's not going to happen overnight and it's not going to happen because of one decision they make (unless that decision is to pull out of the ILC market, lol).
Seeing as how DSLR is old technology, and all 3 major brands no longer make DSLR's, nothing you just said makes any relevance.
Your argument is like saying Ford has owned the automobile market for the last 20 years, yet Tesla has majority in the EV market.
Naturally the mirrorless market is a different game and employing marketing mumbo jumbo to try and prove your asinine claim a company cannot fall behind if it stops being aggressive, (What happened to Nokia and Motorola being the leaders in the cellular phone market?)

As I have said before, history suggests that Canon knows how to make these sorts of decisions in ways that benefit them. OTOH, many people on this forum have a terrible track record of predicting how Canon's strategy and decisions will affect the outcome, since none of those predictions of dire effects for Canon have come to pass. In other words, "their opinions" were wrong.
Obviously, we would hope Canon makes great business decisions otherwise why would we invest in their brand and use their gear.
Most people on this forum are trying to assess what and why these decisions are being made and what the outcomes might be. Otherwise, there is no purpose for a Rumor Forum....
Are you trying to say you know exactly what Canon's strategy is? and why they are making certain decisions?
If so, why you are stooping beneath your illustriousness to comment on speculations on a Rumor Forum Site?

I would speculate that Canon knows exactly how many 35mm L primes they have sold and to whom, and has decided based on those numbers relative to other lenses to prioritize an RF 35L lower than other lenses. The EF 35L II is an excellent lens, and works perfectly on R bodies via the adapter. I have no doubt Canon could easily design and make a better 35mm lens than Sony, just as I have no doubt Sony could have designed and made an even better 35mm GM (cost is the missing part of the equation, obviously). But design and production resources are finite, so Canon has to pick the order for RF lenses to be made. It seems very likely that a 35/1.4L or 35/1.2L will be among them.
I know the EF lens is a great lens, so are tubed tired, but why would I want to use an outdated tubed tire when I can use tubeless?
Better yet, here is a better analogy, why would I use a ssd drive in my computer when I can use a nvme. Especially if I have a computer with the latest PCI spec that can utilize the speed of a nvme drive. Just because I can does not mean I should. Especially if I am interested in obtaining the best of the best gear.
I hope an RF 35L is the next lens to be released.

They've stated ~8 lenses/year are coming for the next few years (we have had that discussion already, the one where "in your opinion" you knew how to count Canon's lenses better then they do).
Whether you count by announce date (which I stated in my other post) or release date, they have only Released 6 so far this year, not 8. Maybe you need the sesame street count to help you count to 6, ah ah ah.
Since they are counting them by Release/Available date, they have 2 months left to have the 135 on the shelfs in order to make it Seven! ah ah ah.
Maybe we will get a surprise with 2 lens announcements available for sale on the shelfs to make it Eight! ah ah ah....

It's sad to see a smart guy like you believing marketing hype as fact just because they said so.
 
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koenkooi

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[..]Better yet, here is a better analogy, why would I use a ssd drive in my computer when I can use a nvme.[..]
You do realize that NVME is a protocol and that most drives using that protocol are solid state drives, colloquially known as 'SSDs'? What you're saying above is 'Why should I use MILC camera when I can use an RF?'

Also, you can get spinning rust drives with an NVME interface.
 
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TonyG

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You do realize that NVME is a protocol and that most drives using that protocol are solid state drives, colloquially known as 'SSDs'? What you're saying above is 'Why should I use MILC camera when I can use an RF?'

Also, you can get spinning rust drives with an NVME interface.
Yes, I meant the difference between a basic 2.5" ssd with a sata connector and an nvme drive with a m2 slot. I figured it would be self-explanatory without going into the technical deep dive.
 
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Seeing as how DSLR is old technology, and all 3 major brands no longer make DSLR's, nothing you just said makes any relevance.
Your argument is like saying Ford has owned the automobile market for the last 20 years, yet Tesla has majority in the EV market.
Naturally the mirrorless market is a different game and employing marketing mumbo jumbo to try and prove your asinine claim a company cannot fall behind if it stops being aggressive, (What happened to Nokia and Motorola being the leaders in the cellular phone market?)
This is rather like having a discussion with a bowling ball. You are the one who used the term "DSLR", and put it in quotes, even. The term I used was "ILC". The abbreviation ILC stands for interchangeable lens camera, a category that comprises DSLRs and MILCs (that last one means mirrorless interchangeable lens cameras, evidently I need to explain since it seems you don't understand these basic terms of the market we are discussing). Canon is #1 in the ILC market with ~50% share, Sony is #2 with ~22% share. Canon's share of the DSLR market is even higher, ~60%. Regarding trends, from 2020 to 2021 both Canon and Sony gained market share (at Nikon's expense), but Canon actually gained more than Sony.

Incidentally, what gives you the idea that, "all 3 major brands no longer make DSLR's?" The three major brands are Canon, Sony and Nikon and both Canon and Nikon are still producing DSLRs (as is Ricoh/Pentax although they are not 'major'). In the month of September 2022, ~30% of ILCs produced were DSLRs. The fraction has been about the same for the first three quarters of 2022. Check CIPA for the data, which is something you should have done before making such an asinine and easily refuted claim.

Are you trying to say you know exactly what Canon's strategy is? and why they are making certain decisions?
If so, why you are stooping beneath your illustriousness to comment on speculations on a Rumor Forum Site?
By all means, put more words in my mouth. Lol. Of course I'm not saying I'm privy to Canon's internal discussions of strategy. But we can all see the outcome of their implementation of their strategy – increasing the degree to which they've led the ILC market for two decades to the point where they are the dominant manufacturer. Why would you assume that will change dramatically? Oh wait, I know...NOKIA!! KODAK!! Sure, sure. Ignore the hundreds of companies that have been and remain successful and focus on a small number of exceptions. That's sound reasoning, that is. :rolleyes:

Whether you count by announce date (which I stated in my other post) or release date, they have only Released 6 so far this year, not 8. Maybe you need the sesame street count to help you count to 6, ah ah ah.
Since they are counting them by Release/Available date, they have 2 months left to have the 135 on the shelfs in order to make it Seven! ah ah ah.
Maybe we will get a surprise with 2 lens announcements available for sale on the shelfs to make it Eight! ah ah ah....
It's sad to see a smart guy like you believing marketing hype as fact just because they said so.
I suppose I shouldn't have brought it up, seems you're still upset over being wrong. I have no idea if Canon will stick to their claim or not, and that wasn't my point. The point was that you claimed Canon's count of lenses released in 2020 and 2021 was wrong, which was a patently asinine claim (you seem to make a lot of those). It's sad to see a smart guy like you say such foolish things.
 
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mxwphoto

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I know the EF lens is a great lens, so are tubed tired, but why would I want to use an outdated tubed tire when I can use tubeless?
Better yet, here is a better analogy, why would I use a ssd drive in my computer when I can use a nvme. Especially if I have a computer with the latest PCI spec that can utilize the speed of a nvme drive. Just because I can does not mean I should. Especially if I am interested in obtaining the best of the best gear.
I hope an RF 35L is the next lens to be released.
Being the owner of the EF 35L II, I have to say the drive analogy would be more akin to having a M.2 riser card via pciexpress and attaching a NVME drive to it vs a motherboard with a dedicated NVME drive slot.

The 35L II has phenomenal sharpness wide open and utilizes BR, one of the only 2 lenses that have it thus far. Speed is very fast as it can do the full 12fps mechanical on a R6. The only thing it needs is the EF to RF adapter (riser card equivalent). It even maintains weather sealing with adapter.

I believe it would be hard for Canon to make a RF 35L that would have much distinction from the EF version. The only way they could differentiate is if they went f/1.2.

There's more urgent dated line-ups to fill thus probably why we haven't seen a native RF 35L version yet.
 
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