Prosumer Level Canon Mirrorless Camera to Have 4K [CR2]

[unfocused]

Insulting comment removed by moderator

 

[scrup]

Are people here (or in general) reeeally that into 4K? I see/hear lots of regret/dismissal of the 5DS bodies due to the large files, is the 4K situation not going to be similar?
I'm personally disappointed that Canon generally only offer 720p at double the desirable frame rate and file size, with no 16:9 576p or even 480p at 16:9...

When my cellphone can take 4k, I don't see why a dedicated camera cannot have that ability. Some people takes videos to view in the future. 5-10 years it be good to view old footage on a 4k display.

Canon probably wont release a 4k crop camera this year. But I hope there is some weighting in the full frame mirrorless rumor.

 

[TAF]

Are people here (or in general) reeeally that into 4K? I see/hear lots of regret/dismissal of the 5DS bodies due to the large files, is the 4K situation not going to be similar?
I'm personally disappointed that Canon generally only offer 720p at double the desirable frame rate and file size, with no 16:9 576p or even 480p at 16:9...

most of the people crying about 4k would never shoot it, but just want to see it on a spec - look my camera shoots 4k..

that makes no sense, I shoot 4k on my panasonic all....the..... time

being able to grab 8k stills is amazing

It's like having an 8k camera doing NON-STOP 30fps burst

People dimissing 4k, have never used it.

What sort of display are you using to view those 8K images and those 4K videos?

 

[Woody]

... their market share is shrinking...

In 2008:

In 2014:

Blah, blah, blah...

 

[mb66energy]

I really do not need 4k urgently but ...
* I see timelapse movies of landscapes/industrial landscapes in my mind where a movie might benefit from 4k
* I see 4k as a chance to make good "photos" with 30 frames per second (speaking about 4-8MPix images)
* downsampling of 4k to 1080p might help to have very good 1080p footage (smooth transitions + crispness)
* I would like to see 4k footage on my UHD TV display the first time

So if it doesn't compromise reliability and IQ - why not? Hopefully in a mirrorless with EVF and with EF-mount or better
a "shorter EF mount" + 15mm ext. tube as adapter for EF and the native mount with adapter for all the other interesting
lenses. I would like to shoot with my FD 2.5 135 or 4.0 17 ...

 

[Ivan Muller]

I hope Canon rethinks this whole mirrorless line...the M3 is very small, almost too small I think and it is very difficult to hold the camera with a big zoom like the 70-300L it feels like the lens will brake off the mount...you hold the lens not the camera, so if they are going to release a FF mirorless something like the Leica SL makes more sense...thats hoping that they can get their AF sorted abut looking at past offerings there is absolutely no evidence of that....

 

[scyrene]

Canon's sales are shrinking, their market share is shrinking, too, just like the whole camera market is shrinking. The only segment that is growing is the segment of mirrorless cameras. Add that about 1-2 years ago we heard (I think it was here, at CR) that Canon wasn*t too happy with 6D sales. Now, as business man; what would you conclude?

[CITATION NEEDED]

 

[scyrene]

My humble thinking is that cameras that meet user demands will usually sell better than cameras that don't. So product management should follow user feedback, to some degree.

Absolutely, and I'm sure it does. But the question is, what *kind* of feedback should they value, and pay most attention to? A few people on forums? Or the overall sales figures and in depth market research I'm sure all big companies do?

 

[Loswr]

[quote author=gargamel]
Now let's think like a business man, as opposed to a camera enthusiast.
Canon's sales are shrinking, their market share is shrinking, too, just like the whole camera market is shrinking. The only segment that is growing is the segment of mirrorless cameras. Add that about 1-2 years ago we heard (I think it was here, at CR) that Canon wasn*t too happy with 6D sales. Now, as business man; what would you conclude?

You are thinking like a businessman alright. A delusional businessman smoking dope.

You've packed an incredible amount of wrong in a single paragraph.
[/quote]

+1

But as I've stated before, many people on this forum have the business acumen of garden slugs.

 

[Atcanon]

Think my wish list is limited.

Must have:

• Clean ISO 1600. Same as ISO 800 on M1.
• Acceptable AF in low light. M3 has acceptable AF, but not in low light.
• Same pricing as M3.
• Same Automatic WB as M1.
• Continued support for mic input, hot shoe and 3rd party lenses like Samyang.
• The rumored EF-M 15mm f/2 STM & EF-M 35mm f/1.8 STM. They need to be as good as the 22mm. Preferably with easier MF.

Nice to have:

• 4k, and 25fps at minimum.
• IBIS. Actually, I prefer this to 4k. A lot.

I don't want a lot. Yet, somehow, I feel I am dreaming.

 

[Wizardly]

Think my wish list is limited.

Must have:

• Clean ISO 1600. Same as ISO 800 on M1.
• Acceptable AF in low light. M3 has acceptable AF, but not in low light.
• Same pricing as M3.
• Same Automatic WB as M1.
• Continued support for mic input, hot shoe and 3rd party lenses like Samyang.
• The rumored EF-M 15mm f/2 STM & EF-M 35mm f/1.8 STM. They need to be as good as the 22mm. Preferably with easier MF.

Nice to have:

• 4k, and 25fps at minimum.
• IBIS. Actually, I prefer this to 4k. A lot.

I don't want a lot. Yet, somehow, I feel I am dreaming.

Same price as EOS M3...if you wait 10 years and buy it off the used market that might happen.

 

[Atcanon]

Well, pricing is subject to change. M3 was more expensive at launch.

But yeah, nothing in the "EOS M track record" hints at a complete fulfillment of my wish list.

 

[hubie]

Sometimes threads here feel like school yard back in the days, just without punching ur opposite in the face when you run out of arguments (which is in 95% of the posts the case here).

I myself am looking forward on a mirrorless Full frame with EF-mount. That would be great, although I fear a bit too expensive, as I am not going to "waste" more than 2000$ on a camera body...

 

[gargamel]

Canon's sales are shrinking, their market share is shrinking, too, just like the whole camera market is shrinking. The only segment that is growing is the segment of mirrorless cameras. Add that about 1-2 years ago we heard (I think it was here, at CR) that Canon wasn*t too happy with 6D sales. Now, as business man; what would you conclude?

[CITATION NEEDED]

Of course::

Canon Releases Q3 2015 Results (10/2015)
http://www.canonrumors.com/page/40/

CANON ANNUAL REPORT 2014, page 14f.
http://www.canon.com/ir/annual/2014/canon-annual-report-2014.pdf


And a few unauthorized (EDIT: unauthoritative) sources:

REFILE-UPDATE 1-Canon Q3 profit slides on weak camera demand but full-year forecast lifted (10/2014)
http://www.reuters.com/article/canon-results-idUSL4N0SM25K20141027

Canon destroys Nikon in DSLR marketshare for 2010 (4/2011)
http://www.canonrumors.com/canon-destroys-nikon-in-dslr-marketshare/

Canon and Nikon Japanese market share declines (9/2011)
http://www.techradar.com/news/photography-video-capture/cameras/canon-and-nikon-japanese-market-share-declines-1019035

The Market for Interchangeable Lens Cameras (2/2015)
http://www.dslrbodies.com/newsviews/the-market-for-interchangea.html

What is the market share between Canon and Nikon in the US? (5/2013)
http://photo.stackexchange.com/questions/39351/what-is-the-market-share-between-canon-and-nikon-in-the-us

Report Claims Only Nikon, Canon and Sony Will Survive the Smartphone Revolution (12/2013)
http://petapixel.com/2013/12/30/report-claims-nikon-canon-sony-will-survive-smartphone-revolution/

gargamel

 

[gargamel]

My humble thinking is that cameras that meet user demands will usually sell better than cameras that don't. So product management should follow user feedback, to some degree.

Absolutely, and I'm sure it does. But the question is, what *kind* of feedback should they value, and pay most attention to? A few people on forums? Or the overall sales figures and in depth market research I'm sure all big companies do?

Well, they should value all the feedback from all of their customers, of course. Regarding product strategy, however, it's not so much about people on forums, who may or may not be customers, but on sales figures (not only for their own products, but also the competition) and market trends. The difficult part is to separate hypes from real, more sustainable trends. Forum scans serve as one "trend barometer" and help the product management to get indication for new or changing trends.

This is, BTW, what Fujifilm did, when they launched their X series. They listen to customers and live Kaizen. This, and their products have helped them to grow a positive image for their brand name and to become profitable, finally. They responded to customer demands and brought the lenses that were most eaglery desired first.

Canon does this, too, as the 80D and the 7D Mk II show clearly They are just bigger and slower. Some might like to rephrase this as "more stable". Well, ok, that's fine for me. If I wouldn't like a lot about Canon products I wouldn't participate in this forum, would I?

gargamel

 

[ecka]

...
Canon's sales are shrinking, their market share is shrinking, too, just like the whole camera market is shrinking. The only segment that is growing is the segment of mirrorless cameras. ...

...
My humble thinking is that cameras that meet user demands will usually sell better than cameras that don't. So product management should follow user feedback, to some degree. The photographers the 6D is aimed at want an even smaller, lighter camera. This could be more easily achieved without a mirror, I guess, as the mirror box takes space and adds weight.
...
gargamel

I myself would like to have a nice FF Canon mirrorless camera instead of my 6D. Now I'm thinking Sony a7# + Sigma MC-11 + Sigma EF lenses , but that's just me and it has nothing to do with 6D family, which I believe will stay with us for a while. I don't want it to be small. Less weight is good, but not much smaller.

I think that the only thing that's shrinking is the mirrorless. I mean the size of mirrorless cameras. On the other hand, there is so much aggressive nonsense from mirrorless fanboys (mostly Fuji and m4/3) all over photography forums, so it is obvious that their brains must be shrinking in sync with their cameras. Thank god Canon isn't listening to that rubbish. Now, how would you separate crazy customers from sane customers? Are those who pay $1200 for a nice and small point&shoot camera, which needs some extra unreasonably expensive lenses (~$1000 each) to take a decent picture (which I could reproduce with anything at F5.6 on my 6D), sane? Isn't the "shrinking down" crazy?

P.S. It's not the mirror box, it's the pentaprism.

 

[Orangutan]

Canon's sales are shrinking, their market share is shrinking, too, just like the whole camera market is shrinking. The only segment that is growing is the segment of mirrorless cameras. Add that about 1-2 years ago we heard (I think it was here, at CR) that Canon wasn*t too happy with 6D sales. Now, as business man; what would you conclude?

[CITATION NEEDED]

Of course::

Canon Releases Q3 2015 Results (10/2015)
http://www.canonrumors.com/page/40/

CANON ANNUAL REPORT 2014, page 14f.
http://www.canon.com/ir/annual/2014/canon-annual-report-2014.pdf


And a few unauthorized sources:

REFILE-UPDATE 1-Canon Q3 profit slides on weak camera demand but full-year forecast lifted (10/2014)
http://www.reuters.com/article/canon-results-idUSL4N0SM25K20141027

Canon destroys Nikon in DSLR marketshare for 2010 (4/2011)
http://www.canonrumors.com/canon-destroys-nikon-in-dslr-marketshare/

Canon and Nikon Japanese market share declines (9/2011)
http://www.techradar.com/news/photography-video-capture/cameras/canon-and-nikon-japanese-market-share-declines-1019035

The Market for Interchangeable Lens Cameras (2/2015)
http://www.dslrbodies.com/newsviews/the-market-for-interchangea.html

What is the market share between Canon and Nikon in the US? (5/2013)
http://photo.stackexchange.com/questions/39351/what-is-the-market-share-between-canon-and-nikon-in-the-us

Report Claims Only Nikon, Canon and Sony Will Survive the Smartphone Revolution (12/2013)
http://petapixel.com/2013/12/30/report-claims-nikon-canon-sony-will-survive-smartphone-revolution/

gargamel

Reaching quite a bit there. Let's take away the references to 2014 and before because they're not relevant to the current state of affairs. You still need to provide clear support for these statements:

• "[Canon's]market share is shrinking, too..."
• "The only segment that is growing is the segment of mirrorless cameras"
• "I think it was here, at CR) that Canon wasn*t too happy with 6D sales"

Now, as business man; what would you conclude?

First, I would conclude that I would fire you if you were my data analyst. Second, I would note that Canon's imaging unit has been consistently profitable for over a decade, so they probably know more about how the market moves than anyone on this forum.

 

[gargamel]

Just speculating, but: Could it be that this mirrorless FF camera is the 6D Mk II?
We have heard that the 6D gets a successor this year and that it would be smaller than the original 6D. Small size and light weight are key features of mirrorless cameras. Many landscape photographers are currently using Sony cameras with Canon lenses. Also, the time would just perfectly fit for a 6D replacement --- announcement at Photokina, starting sales around Christmas.

What do you think: Could this make sense?

gargamel

Interesting theory but whether Canon would abandon an entry level FF DSLR is doubtful. It will have the Nikon D620 and D760 to contend with down the track. I do think that Nikon however will make the DF2 a mirrorless camera, it's got the classic retro format already that works well in the mirrorless world and would be the natural way for Nikon to get on the mirrorless bandwagon.

At this point of the discussion I agree: The 6D replacement will be a DSLR. One generation ahead, however, things may change, and the 6D III might actually turn out to be the 6M. Time will tell, and we'll have to see, if Nikon's peer product will still be a DSLR or a mirrorless system camera, by that time. Like the FF models from Sony compete with the 5D III (in the semi-pro and wealthy enthusiast segments of the market, at least).

gargamel

 

[unfocused]

Comments truncated to save space.

Canon's sales are shrinking, their market share is shrinking, too...The only segment that is growing is the segment of mirrorless cameras...we heard (I think it was here, at CR) that Canon wasn*t too happy with 6D sales. Now, as business man; what would you conclude?

[CITATION NEEDED]

Of course::

Reaching quite a bit there. Let's take away the references to 2014 and before because they're not relevant to the current state of affairs. You still need to provide clear support for these statements:

• "[Canon's]market share is shrinking, too..."
• "The only segment that is growing is the segment of mirrorless cameras"
• "I think it was here, at CR) that Canon wasn*t too happy with 6D sales"

Now, as business man; what would you conclude?

First, I would conclude that I would fire you if you were my data analyst. Second, I would note that Canon's imaging unit has been consistently profitable for over a decade, so they probably know more about how the market moves than anyone on this forum.

As frequently happens, Orangutan has beaten me to a response. Several of the citations referenced conflict with Gargamel's claims.

Thanks though, for the references. Once again they confirm what I've felt for some time, which is that Thom Hogan is one of the better analysts of photography trends out there.

[quote author=Thom Hogan]
...if I’m right about what the disruption needs to be, both Canon and Nikon are poorly equipped to create it, as it will mostly be differences in software, not hardware, that define future cameras from present ones. [/quote]

See my previous rants about how Canon, Nikon, Sony, etc. have all completely blown the social media and connectivity revolution.

 

[gargamel]

[...]

Reaching quite a bit there. Let's take away the references to 2014 and before because they're not relevant to the current state of affairs. You still need to provide clear support for these statements:

Well, not more than you would need to prove me wrong, I guess. But let's see below.

[...]

• "[Canon's]market share is shrinking, too..."

See "Canon destroys Nikon..." and compare the figures with the figures in the diagrams posted by Woody. The diagram for 2014 shows 43.3% for Canon. 2010 it was 44.5%.

• "The only segment that is growing is the segment of mirrorless cameras"

As it seems, not even the mirrorless segment is growing, at least not fast. But it's all in the CIPA figures, just look yourself: http://www.cipa.jp/stats/dc_e.html

• "I think it was here, at CR) that Canon wasn*t too happy with 6D sales"

I finally found that article again. Here it is, just for you, Sir:

EOS 6D Mark II to Move Upmarket? [CR1]
http://www.canonrumors.com/eos-6d-mark-ii-to-move-upmarket-cr1/

Canon to Rethink 6D Market Position After Disappointment With Sales?
https://www.slrlounge.com/canon-rethink-6d-market-position-disappointment-sales/

Canon EOS 6D Sales Figures Not Satisfying?
http://www.canonwatch.com/canon-eos-6d-sales-figures-satisfying/

Now, as business man; what would you conclude?

First, I would conclude that I would fire you if you were my data analyst. Second, I would note that Canon's imaging unit has been consistently profitable for over a decade, so they probably know more about how the market moves than anyone on this forum.

LOL! Luckily, for the both of us, I am not your data analyst. I would obviously have a hard time to explain my results to you...
With your final statement I fully agree, by the way. As I said in a previous post: At Canon they are conservative, and sometimes it looks like they are slow, but they do respond to user demands and trends. And while their products are a bit boring at times, it only means that the product as such doesn't get in your way. So "boring" is the best thing a camera can be.

However, in my opinion thet underestimated the potential and (even more) the appeal of mirrorless cameras (and 4k Video), and I hope that they are not going to be the Nokia of the camera business in a couple of years. The iPhone was a disruptive force in the smartphone market, and some Nokia managers still wonder, what went wrong.

gargamel